Do designers/engineers actually test the things they draw up?

[vi edit]

Serious question since we have at least a few of you floating around here.

If you are responsible for drawing up some widget that has to be installed by an everyday consumer are you required to actually try installing said widget to see just how much of a pain in the ass it is?

I'm putting up some wood blinds around my house and they come with these braces you mount in the middle of the blind to support it. The holes that are pre drilled in the top of bracket are essentially unreachable by any conventional screwdriver or driver tip because the bottom plate is in the way. So you can get the screws halfway in there and then I had to go get a right angle screwdriver I had from some other crazy install to finish it up the rest of the way.

If the idiot that had designed this thing had actually taken 10 seconds to try it out, he'd realize how much of a pain in the ass it is and would have added an extra half inch or so to each side of the top plate and spread the screws out enough that you could get around the bottom part to drive them in.

Same thing for stuff like basic vehicle maintenance. Did the guy who designed the oil pan placement of a 99 Escort actually realize that the drain plug is about 1" away from part of the frame making it almost impossible to get a socket wrench on it?

 

[edro]

No.

I take it upon myself to personally test everything I design, but it definitely isn't a requirement in today's fast paced design cycles.

I can't even imagine how some Chinese companies operate.

 

[rcpratt]

Probably unlikely that the actual designer/engineer would test it, but most everything is tested at some point. Not necessarily well. Engineers tend to make a lot of assumptions.

 

[ebaycj]

Serious question since we have at least a few of you floating around here.

If you are responsible for drawing up some widget that has to be installed by an everyday consumer are you required to actually try installing said widget to see just how much of a pain in the ass it is?

I'm putting up some wood blinds around my house and they come with these braces you mount in the middle of the blind to support it. The holes that are pre drilled in the top of bracket are essentially unreachable by any conventional screwdriver or driver tip because the bottom plate is in the way. So you can get the screws halfway in there and then I had to go get a right angle screwdriver I had from some other crazy install to finish it up the rest of the way.

If the idiot that had designed this thing had actually taken 10 seconds to try it out, he'd realize how much of a pain in the ass it is and would have added an extra half inch or so to each side of the top plate and spread the screws out enough that you could get around the bottom part to drive them in.

Same thing for stuff like basic vehicle maintenance. Did the guy who designed the oil pan placement of a 99 Escort actually realize that the drain plug is about 1" away from part of the frame making it almost impossible to get a socket wrench on it?

They don't care if it's a pain in the ass for you to install. They care that it is $0.02 cheaper per unit without the extra metal in place.

Engineering nowadays is not "designing the best" it is "desiging minimum acceptable quality for the lowest possible cost".

 

[Gibson486]

LOL!

Yes, they test it, but the issues come up when business majors take a hold of it to make it cheaper.

As for teh Escort, they are engineered to run, not be maintained.

 

[vi edit]

Yes, they test it, but the issues come up when business majors take a hold of it to make it cheaper.

AKA blackbelts or whatever name your place calls them. Bleh. People so far removed from any practical world experience they have no clue how much of a pain in the ass they are.

 

[Gibson486]

AKA blackbelts or whatever name your place calls them. Bleh. People so far removed from any practical world experience they have no clue how much of a pain in the ass they are.

Oh, you mean new college grads

 

[jaha2000]

<------ Mechanical Engineer

The blind thing i would go with one of 3 options.
1. They want to keep the bracket small so you can see it
2. They had an off the shelf part from some other job
3. Some accountant told the designer to make the part smaller to save costs.

As for the car.
1. Why use a socket on a drain plug? The intended tool is a box end wrench, making your issue with the frame not really an issue.
2. Engines are used on multiple platforms in the automotive industry. Sometimes placement of parts is less than ideal to get things to "fit" in some vehicles.
3. Some accountant told the designer than a new form for new oil pans for your escort would cut into profits far too much.

 

[Anubis]

AKA blackbelts or whatever name your place calls them. Bleh. People so far removed from any practical world experience they have no clue how much of a pain in the ass they are.

our black belts are engineers D:

the business end prob has them as well but the ones in the engineering group actually know stuff

 

[vi edit]

LOL!

As for teh Escort, they are engineered to run, not be maintained.

You'd think that things like cars would at least go through some sort of review by the guys that actually have to fix them so that they can point out any possible lapsess of sensibility (like the afore mentioned drain plug) and just shift things around an inch or two here or there and save A LOT of people a major amount of headaches.

 

[PottedMeat]

I can't even imagine how some Chinese companies operate.

take foreign casting, make mold, make copies of mold, mass produce? :awe:

 

[Gibson486]

You'd think that things like cars would at least go through some sort of review by the guys that actually have to fix them so that they can point out any possible lapsess of sensibility (like the afore mentioned drain plug) and just shift things around an inch or two here or there and save A LOT of people a major amount of headaches.

Well, yeah, it would make sense....but that would make too much sense. Also, they do not fabricate the pans. They buy them well ahead of time. When they draw it out to ensure it will fit, that is all they do. The put a box that represents its dimension and place it on the drawing. They do not take anything else into account such as where the plug is. Once the prototype is built, it would cost way too much to change a thing like the oil pan location, even if it's just 3 inches because it would mean shifting 100 other things around. Some companies get around this by a designer instead of engineer to place everything out in CAD. Ofcourse, this means the company has to spend 40K more for each designer they hire.

 

[Bignate603]

Probably unlikely that the actual designer/engineer would test it, but most everything is tested at some point. Not necessarily well. Engineers tend to make a lot of assumptions.

And people make quite a few assumptions about engineers

In many industries the engineer is involved putting the prototype together. I work in aerospace and if its anything that's different from normal the tech doing the assembly will give us a call to come down and look at it. We also talk to the techs after the assembly is done to see if they have any gripes.

Of course, in our design process we typically have time between the prototype and the final design to tweak things. In many consumer products they don't give the engineers enough time to try it out and do any changes. Not every issue is immediately apparent, especially if the bean counters are leaning on you to design it as quickly as possible so it will cost less.

 

[vi edit]

No.

I take it upon myself to personally test everything I design, but it definitely isn't a requirement in today's fast paced design cycles.

I can't even imagine how some Chinese companies operate.

Another example of this...

I bought some inwall speakers from Monoprice. To install an inwall speaker you have these dogears that rotate out off of 4" or so screw that you drive to engage the clamp and have it bite down on the drywall around the speaker cutout.

That's fine. Except the cheap ass chinese shit they outsourced decided to put screws made out of melted butter and bubble gum and even the slightest bit of resistance would strip them out instantly. So now I've got a couple speakers that either aren't screwed in all the way because the screws stripped out or aren't coming out without a lot of work because the screws are stripped out. Lame.

I'd *gladly* pay an extra $.08 a pair of speakers for screws that actually...well screwed without screwing me.

 

[Gibson486]

No.

I take it upon myself to personally test everything I design, but it definitely isn't a requirement in today's fast paced design cycles.

I can't even imagine how some Chinese companies operate.

It's horrible. When I did work with them, their engineers simply want to plug everything together with no regard of anything else. They are like," Well, these two things have USB ports, that means they can talk to each other". So many times I had to bring them down a level and do "You know, it will not work by simply plugging device A into Device B".

 

[Bignate603]

Well, yeah, it would make sense....but that would make too much sense. Also, they do not fabricate the pans. They buy them well ahead of time. When they draw it out to ensure it will fit, that is all they do. The put a box that represents its dimension and place it on the drawing. They do not take anything else into account such as where the plug is. Once the prototype is built, it would cost way too much to change a thing like the oil pan location, even if it's just 3 inches because it would mean shifting 100 other things around. Some companies get around this by a designer instead of engineer to place everything out in CAD. Ofcourse, this means the company has to spend 40K more for each designer they hire.

You assume too much, they most definitely include the drain plug in their drawings and assemblies. It's more likely that they either assume that you'll use another sort of tool (which may not be common outside of the dealership), there is some other thing driving the drain plug location (may have a minimum clearance required to other components inside the engine), a late design change to another component that affected access to the drain plug, or it just looked like a bigger gap on the drawings than it really is.

These things ARE checked, otherwise they'd never be able to get the car to go together at all.

 

[PottedMeat]

It's horrible. When I did work with them, their engineers simply want to plug everything together with no regard of anything else. They are like," Well, these two things have USB ports, that means they can talk to each other". So many times I had to bring them down a level and do "You know, it will not work by simply plugging device A into Device B".

those people can't be engineers

 

[Gibson486]

those people can't be engineers

You have never dealt with engineers from China. It's the one thing i hated about working in the electronics chip industry. They have the mentality that everything is plug and play, even at the chip level.

 

[PingSpike]

My experience has been manufacturing and service are brought in last, and if they have any complaints its kind of to late to make major changes anyway. I think engineering unintentionally suffers a bit of myopia with the early prototypes...they're a pain to put together but they're early versions and you do it 500 times during testing so you kind of stop noticing how stupid something is. Plus, you're just trying to get it done.

Plus, marketing never writes "must be easily serviceable" as a design requirement (if they had to choose between this and time to market, they will choose time to market every time) and even if they did that's pretty hard to quantify anyway. Many times there just isn't an easy or cheap way to make something easier to repair.

The solution is to bring service in really early and make them a player with the early prototypes. They'll probably still get bulldozed by marketing and project management, but maybe they'll at least win a few obvious easy battles.

 

[polarmystery]

They don't care if it's a pain in the ass for you to install. They care that it is $0.02 cheaper per unit without the extra metal in place.

Engineering nowadays is not "designing the best" it is "designing minimum acceptable quality for the lowest possible cost".

Former electrical power distribution engineer here, and what is in bold is always the case. Always...

 

[LTC8K6]

Yes, here is Boeing, making sure the wings will not break off even at 150&#37; of the expected maximum load, so that you will get to your destination safely.

 

[Train]

take foreign casting, make mold, make copies of mold, mass produce? :awe:

bingo. I worked with a moldings company that shut down their Chinese plant because the molds they spent hundreds of thousands to develop were getting stolen/copied like crazy.

 

[CycloWizard]

Problems like this are sometimes by design. My first car had an oil filter that was virtually unreachable unless the car was well off the ground. They put it there rather than some place sane because it will encourage you to take your car to the dealer for maintenance rather than doing it yourself. I'm stubborn though and just about lost my arm doing it every time. Same thing with a lot of DIY house stuff - they want you to pay for install, since that's where they make most of their money.

 

[Gibson486]

It depends on what you are doing.

When I design a process, I have to look at why I am doing it.

If I am monitoring flow of aeration air, I could not care if the instrument provided has an accuracy of 20&#37; of 1%. It does not matter. It's aeration air. The minimal acceptable quality of just being able to have a measurement is fine. If the meter fails, it sucks, but so what. The process can still go on and the control loop will just be dependent on the air blower itself.

However, if I monitoring flow of chemical injection into water, yeah, I do need to care. 20% and 1% is a huge difference. It's the difference between sick people and healthy people. The acceptable quality is one that gives me the best accuracy possible and is most reliable solution. Having this process go down would be very bad.

 

[Modelworks]

It depends on the engineer. The ones that care spend a great deal of time on all aspects from installs to assembly . The others just draw it and don't care if it takes 10 people to put the screw in.