Distracting from our own pains in North America, Europe is worse

[StageLeft]

Greece in turmoil

Apparently a kid got killed by cops and the country is falling to shambles, but the death was a match on a powder keg anyway. I didn't realize what a mess Greece was in. I knew that Italy was going backward, corruption a real problem there, I knew that England's federal budget is a total mess (yes, quite a bit worse than America's). Well Greece is in a class of its own according to this link; The current account deficit is 15pc of GDP, the eurozone's highest by far. Indeed, the deficit ($53bn) is the sixth biggest in the world in absolute terms -- quite a feat for a country of 11m people. <- pretty impressive.

And in Spain: The IMF expects Spain's unemployment to reach 15pc. Immigrants are already being paid to leave the country. Wow, that's terrible. Although we could see that here, no official body is predicting anything more than 8-9% AFAIK.

I still believe the US needs to be exceedingly careful with its bailing out and propping up. This is ammunition not easily restocked; as government grows inexorably the economy loses its agility and the government, already large, loses its ability to temporarily increase in times of national need. I don't think any of us should be envious of what Europe is looking at these days, although many here do appear to be. And it's not all bad, but multiple countries in Europe have had and will have riots. Can you really picture large scale rioting in the US? It seems almost impossible to comprehend. There would be widespread and immediate condemnation of banks, police, etc. being attacked.

 

[dphantom]

This is what happens when the people allow governemtn to do everything for them and not be accountable to themselvs for solving problems. Simplistic I know and nothing is ever as simple as black and white.

Still, Greece, Italy, Spain, Sweden to name a few are finding it more and more difficult to maintain the social programs they have put in place over the last 40 years or so. The more power we cede to government, the more power government will take. And in the end, government will fail because it can never be all things to all people.

The best government is one that is so small you do not even know it is there.

 

[StageLeft]

:heart: for saving my thread, I was worried about it

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Can you really picture large scale rioting in the US?

I've warned on this for years now under the last administration that this is what we are headed for and you and your friends have spent years saying it's not going to happen and can never happen.

So which is it?

Was I right?

You started this focusing on Greece with it's 11 million people in a very confined area.

I believe that contributed to the candle becoming a torch there.

The U.S. is obviously so much bigger it will take a lot more candles becoming torches to reach the caliber of the Greece situation.

I've said for years it will take enough people negatively affected before they reach the point of rebellion here. That point is rapidly approaching as evidenced by the massive numbers affected coming in and even by those on AT saying they are personally affected.

Too bad it will happen now under Democrat rule and they will undoubtedly be blamed wholeheartedly by you and the rest of the Republicans on here which is sad.

But hopefully through it all the bottom line is that hope that the Dems can undo the destruction the Republicans have done to the country and hopefully the world then recovers too.

 

[dphantom]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Can you really picture large scale rioting in the US?

I've warned on this for years now under the last administration that this is what we are headed for and you and your friends have spent years saying it's not going to happen and can never happen.

So which is it?

Was I right?

You started this focusing on Greece with it's 11 million people in a very confined area.

I believe that contributed to the candle becoming a torch there.

The U.S. is obviously so much bigger it will take a lot more candles becoming torches to reach the caliber of the Greece situation.

I've said for years it will take enough people negatively affected before they reach the point of rebellion here. That point is rapidly approaching as evidenced by the massive numbers affected coming in and even by those on AT saying they are personally affected.

Too bad it will happen now under Democrat rule and they will undoubtedly be blamed wholeheartedly by you and the rest of the Republicans on here which is sad.

But hopefully through it all the bottom line is that hope that the Dems can undo the destruction the Republicans have done to the country and hopefully the world then recovers too.

To translate for those less educated, if riots happen under Republicans, it is the Republicans fault; if riots happen under Democrats its Republicans fault.

Got it... :roll:

 

[BoberFett]

So which Democrats are going to save us Dave? Blagojevich?

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So which Democrats are going to save us Dave? Blagojevich?

Absolutely

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Greece in turmoil

Can you really picture large scale rioting in the US? It seems almost impossible to comprehend. There would be widespread and immediate condemnation of banks, police, etc. being attacked.

Hungry people being kicked out of their homes would riot quite easily. Do not fool yourself into thinking such natural reactions to failure are beyond us here in the US. When the government fails to represent the people, revolt against it is the only course.

It appears to be unavoidable unless our situation corrects itself and the government?s choices do not make matters worse than they already have. It is not a question of if it will come to violence, but if we travel so far down the rabbit hole that it?ll come to it. The longer we prevent ourselves from hitting bottom and rebounding ? the more likely it becomes that we will reach this destination.

Our market can handle hardship (uncertainty), but it cannot handle prolonged uncertainty and spending $7 trillion this year alone to delay the inevitable sounds like the perfect way to prolong their uncertainty and the suffering of the average person. So long as the government continues to meddle in the market the dust will not settle. People cannot begin to rebuild UNTIL the dust settles.

Prevent them from rebuilding long enough, and they will look to new solutions other than the peaceful ones.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
That point is rapidly approaching as evidenced by the massive numbers affected coming in and even by those on AT saying they are personally affected.

You mean like in the thread asking this very question where the majority of AT-ers have NOT been affected, and are actually better off? Like that you mean?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So which Democrats are going to save us Dave? Blagojevich?

Absolutely I'm a hack and a moron.

Fixed.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Can you really picture large scale rioting in the US?

I've warned on this for years now under the last administration that this is what we are headed for and you and your friends have spent years saying it's not going to happen and can never happen.

So which is it?

Was I right?

You started this focusing on Greece with it's 11 million people in a very confined area.

I believe that contributed to the candle becoming a torch there.

The U.S. is obviously so much bigger it will take a lot more candles becoming torches to reach the caliber of the Greece situation.

I've said for years it will take enough people negatively affected before they reach the point of rebellion here. That point is rapidly approaching as evidenced by the massive numbers affected coming in and even by those on AT saying they are personally affected.

Too bad it will happen now under Democrat rule and they will undoubtedly be blamed wholeheartedly by you and the rest of the Republicans on here which is sad.

But hopefully through it all the bottom line is that hope that the Dems can undo the destruction the Republicans have done to the country and hopefully the world then recovers too.

Of course it can happen in the US at some point, but the climate NOW is very far from it. Evidently in Europe it is not.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So which Democrats are going to save us Dave? Blagojevich?

Absolutely

Come on, Dave. Why? How?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Of course it can happen in the US at some point, but the climate NOW is very far from it. Evidently in Europe it is not.

Don't know why you're so sure about that. We're not at the end of this recession, which could very well be a depression.

GOP Senator Warns of 'Riots' if Automakers Are Bailed Out

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So which Democrats are going to save us Dave? Blagojevich?

Absolutely

Come on, Dave. Why? How?

You don't see any of Bush's boys in power up there do you?

Did Illinois start a false war for oil?

How many lives gone due to Blagojevich?

 

[Auryg]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So which Democrats are going to save us Dave? Blagojevich?

Absolutely

Come on, Dave. Why? How?

You don't see any of Bush's boys in power up there do you?

Did Illinois start a false war for oil?

How many lives gone due to Blagojevich?

Does the new forum software that's coming here have a block user function?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Auryg

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So which Democrats are going to save us Dave? Blagojevich?

Absolutely

Come on, Dave. Why? How?

You don't see any of Bush's boys in power up there do you?

Did Illinois start a false war for oil?

How many lives gone due to Blagojevich?

Does the new forum software that's coming here have a block user function?

LOL, if it does it'll be like Dave doesn't exist.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Auryg

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Robor

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: BoberFett
So which Democrats are going to save us Dave? Blagojevich?

Absolutely

Come on, Dave. Why? How?

You don't see any of Bush's boys in power up there do you?

Did Illinois start a false war for oil?

How many lives gone due to Blagojevich?

Does the new forum software that's coming here have a block user function?

LOL, if it does it'll be like Dave doesn't exist.

well the feature is in VB, its just gotta be enabled on the admin panel for us to use it

 

[BigDH01]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Greece in turmoil

Can you really picture large scale rioting in the US? It seems almost impossible to comprehend. There would be widespread and immediate condemnation of banks, police, etc. being attacked.

Hungry people being kicked out of their homes would riot quite easily. Do not fool yourself into thinking such natural reactions to failure are beyond us here in the US. When the government fails to represent the people, revolt against it is the only course.

It appears to be unavoidable unless our situation corrects itself and the government?s choices do not make matters worse than they already have. It is not a question of if it will come to violence, but if we travel so far down the rabbit hole that it?ll come to it. The longer we prevent ourselves from hitting bottom and rebounding ? the more likely it becomes that we will reach this destination.

Our market can handle hardship (uncertainty), but it cannot handle prolonged uncertainty and spending $7 trillion this year alone to delay the inevitable sounds like the perfect way to prolong their uncertainty and the suffering of the average person. So long as the government continues to meddle in the market the dust will not settle. People cannot begin to rebuild UNTIL the dust settles.

Prevent them from rebuilding long enough, and they will look to new solutions other than the peaceful ones.

What makes you think it would be a revolt solely against the government? If anything, it would be a revolt against the upper classes.

I do not think it is fair to blame all ills on the government, which is the first reaction that many people have. I believe, I would imagine much like yourself, that the government no longer still serves the needs of the people but only because it has too closely aligned itself with corporate interests and their own personal ambition and greed.

Most people will always be ruled. If it is not the government, then it is your employer. Think about how much coercive power your employer has over you right now. This has been the staple of human history, domination. I think many libertarians fail to understand this point. By eliminating government, you simply replace one ruling entity with another. This won't necessarily improve anyone's life.

There is a reason that modern Political Science is concentrating more effort on studying the relationships between NGOs and societies. The state has gradually been losing its influence to NGOs (specifically MNCs). The fact that we are having this discussion speaks to this fact. Although the government may have been the catalyst, it is the corporation that really threw us over the economic edge. It was the corporation that leveraged itself so heavily. And it was the corporation that basically promised complete economic destruction sans a gov't infusion of capital. It was only a few months ago that the most powerful government the world has ever seen was basically held hostage by a cartel of banks. That's power.

I think most people understand, even if not clearly, this true nature of society. This is why I don't inherently believe that any uprising would be directly explicitly against the government. I would imagine one to be directed against anyone perceived to be in the ruling class.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Of course it can happen in the US at some point, but the climate NOW is very far from it. Evidently in Europe it is not.

Don't know why you're so sure about that. We're not at the end of this recession, which could very well be a depression.

GOP Senator Warns of 'Riots' if Automakers Are Bailed Out

Well, unless you want me to continually backtrack, I will say that the US isn't at the point because, well it's not! I haven't seen any rioting yet.

The premise of this thread was that Europe is worse off. Part of that argument is that they are already having riots. The US doesn't have them. I doubt it will, but if it does, at least it had them second, right?

Anyway, a GOP senator who says riots will occur if a bailout occurs is a fool.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: BigDH01

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Greece in turmoil

Can you really picture large scale rioting in the US? It seems almost impossible to comprehend. There would be widespread and immediate condemnation of banks, police, etc. being attacked.

Hungry people being kicked out of their homes would riot quite easily. Do not fool yourself into thinking such natural reactions to failure are beyond us here in the US. When the government fails to represent the people, revolt against it is the only course.

It appears to be unavoidable unless our situation corrects itself and the government?s choices do not make matters worse than they already have. It is not a question of if it will come to violence, but if we travel so far down the rabbit hole that it?ll come to it. The longer we prevent ourselves from hitting bottom and rebounding ? the more likely it becomes that we will reach this destination.

Our market can handle hardship (uncertainty), but it cannot handle prolonged uncertainty and spending $7 trillion this year alone to delay the inevitable sounds like the perfect way to prolong their uncertainty and the suffering of the average person. So long as the government continues to meddle in the market the dust will not settle. People cannot begin to rebuild UNTIL the dust settles.

Prevent them from rebuilding long enough, and they will look to new solutions other than the peaceful ones.

What makes you think it would be a revolt solely against the government? If anything, it would be a revolt against the upper classes.

I do not think it is fair to blame all ills on the government, which is the first reaction that many people have. I believe, I would imagine much like yourself, that the government no longer still serves the needs of the people but only because it has too closely aligned itself with corporate interests and their own personal ambition and greed.

Most people will always be ruled. If it is not the government, then it is your employer. Think about how much coercive power your employer has over you right now. This has been the staple of human history, domination. I think many libertarians fail to understand this point. By eliminating government, you simply replace one ruling entity with another. This won't necessarily improve anyone's life.

There is a reason that modern Political Science is concentrating more effort on studying the relationships between NGOs and societies. The state has gradually been losing its influence to NGOs (specifically MNCs). The fact that we are having this discussion speaks to this fact. Although the government may have been the catalyst, it is the corporation that really threw us over the economic edge. It was the corporation that leveraged itself so heavily. And it was the corporation that basically promised complete economic destruction sans a gov't infusion of capital. It was only a few months ago that the most powerful government the world has ever seen was basically held hostage by a cartel of banks. That's power.

I think most people understand, even if not clearly, this true nature of society. This is why I don't inherently believe that any uprising would be directly explicitly against the government. I would imagine one to be directed against anyone perceived to be in the ruling class.

:thumbsup: one of the better P&N posts in a while.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: BigDH01
...

:thumbsup: one of the better P&N posts in a while.

Definitely agree.

 

[dmcowen674]

12-11-2008An Italian solution: Parmesan for the needy

MILAN, Italy ? Let them eat cheese.

With data showing a growing underclass and food lines now in most major cities, the Italian government has come up with a way to help the needy while propping up one of its iconic industries.

Agriculture Minister Luca Zaia has committed to buying 100,000 66-pound (30-kilogram) wheels each of Parmigiano Reggiano and the very similar Grana Padano cheese to donate to the needy.

 

[MikeMike]

Bush caused this right dave?

 

[Zebo]

Europe has seen nothing yet. There will be blood flowing in the streets once thier Muslim pop hits about 40% and demands their retrograde laws and customs be imposed in favor of status quo multiculturalism.