Discussion Club: Abortion - A Fetus Being a Person Doesn't Justify Banning Abortion

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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
First, I am of the conviction that a Fetus is clearly a human life, and more importantly humans with lives should be granted person-hood status.

The Roe v Wade decision was based on the idea that a fetus is a non-person and thus not entitled to protection under the law. However, it seems to me that the state has no right to demand that any person give/lease/lend or otherwise allow another person access to any of their body parts. Said simply, it wouldn't matter if your finger nail trimmings would save another person's life - the state has no right to demand your body parts.

For example, a corpse can't have its parts used to save someone else's life without consent.

So while I don't believe anyone has a right to kill a fetus - because a fetus is a person - a fetus has no right to a woman's uterus. Therefore a woman has an inalienable right to choose to remove a fetus from her uterus.

There is no right to bodily autonomy. The idea that someone in society may hold themselves aloof from society makes no sense, and suggests that society in turn may hold itself aloof, selectively denying a person the protection of the laws, for example. Society manifestly does not credit the claim. Society can conscript citizens into war,, compel them to public service, prohibit them to take illegal drugs or prostitute themselves, quarantine them, take blood samples from them, and require them to receive immunizations and submit to medical examinations, all legally in the public purpose, all in one way or another taking, restricting, or intruding into the body, and all without the person's consent. In the public purpose, it can plainly prohibit a woman from deliberately killing an innocent human being.
 
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abj13

Golden Member
Jan 27, 2005
1,071
901
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There is no right to bodily autonomy.

Once again, for somebody who claims to be so enlightened on this topic, you write such utterly appalling statements. It is people like you that gave us:

Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution
Dred Scott v. Sandford
Plessy v. Ferguson
Pace v. Alabama
Korematsu v. United States
Bowers v. Hardwick

Thankfully we live in a much more enlightened society that doesn't endorse your view of "no right to bodily autonomy." Our society rightfully rejects the obtuse views that your logic endorses, including slavery, anti-interracial marriage laws, anti-sodomy laws, internment camps, and Separate but equal bull-crap. On the flip side, the "right to bodily autonomy" is not absolute. Our society is complex. There is no single answer to all of this. We live in a world of gray and to deny this and make the asinine claim you just did will only enable future generations to make the same mistakes that our previous and/or current generations made.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,819
1,126
126
When Conservative Christians start taking all these unwanted babies into their homes (and stop high fiving each other the second they can get the kids parents removed from welfare, BridgeCard, WIC, and Section8 and out into the streets where they belong) they finally will get a say on these matters.

Until then they need to STFU and get back in their basements...

Did I do that right? I mean Al Gore doesn't walk everywhere he goes so... I guess if you want to talk the talk, you better walk the walk first...
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,819
1,126
126
Once again, for somebody who claims to be so enlightened on this topic, you write such utterly appalling statements. It is people like you that gave us:

Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 of the United States Constitution
Dred Scott v. Sandford
Plessy v. Ferguson
Pace v. Alabama
Korematsu v. United States
Bowers v. Hardwick

Thankfully we live in a much more enlightened society that doesn't endorse your view of "no right to bodily autonomy." Our society rightfully rejects the obtuse views that your logic endorses, including slavery, anti-interracial marriage laws, anti-sodomy laws, internment camps, and Separate but equal bull-crap. On the flip side, the "right to bodily autonomy" is not absolute. Our society is complex. There is no single answer to all of this. We live in a world of gray and to deny this and make the asinine claim you just did will only enable future generations to make the same mistakes that our previous and/or current generations made.

I gave you a hearty thumbsup for your post but don't think for a second the bolded might not have to come into play again in our near future...

There is a segment of our populus who have sided with a hostile foreign enemy and continue to do so and simultaneously champion the Constitution in one hand while ripping out pages and wiping their asses with the other hand...

These people and their leader our the biggest threat our Country has known in nearly 100 years...
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,974
7,891
136
There is no right to bodily autonomy. The idea that someone in society may hold themselves aloof from society makes no sense, and suggests that society in turn may hold itself aloof, selectively denying a person the protection of the laws, for example. Society manifestly does not credit the claim. Society can conscript citizens into war,, compel them to public service, prohibit them to take illegal drugs or prostitute themselves, quarantine them, take blood samples from them, and require them to receive immunizations and submit to medical examinations, all legally in the public purpose, all in one way or another taking, restricting, or intruding into the body, and all without the person's consent. In the public purpose, it can plainly prohibit a woman from deliberately killing an innocent human being.

OK, perhaps it's a matter of terminology. There may not be a right to 'bodily autonomy', but I believe there is a right to bodily integrity.

It's also a matter of practicalities - the level of control required to prevent a woman ever terminating a pregnancy doesn't seem consistent with a society concerned with human rights. If it is inside your body and it is utterly dependent on you, it's just not the same thing as a human being who is physically separate from others and part of society in their own right. Outside the womb an infant may not be 'autonomous' (are any of us?) but it could potentially be sustained and nurtured by anyone, it's not inescapably connected with one individual.

But this is perhaps a fundamental difference in starting points, and a reason why the topic might never cease to be a matter of dispute. Though it's very notable that its much more a controversial issue in the US than in most of Europe, and that's probably to do with the effect of religion, I guess.

The one part of the British Isles (not just the UK) where attitudes remain hardline would be Northern Ireland, which is more socially conservative than either the UK or the Republic of Ireland. It seems interesting that long-standing conflict has caused both groups to remain entrenched even about the topics that they agree on. (Maybe they'd be OK with it if a three-minute warning could be given to the foetus?)

An American I know 'blamed' anti-abortion sentiment there on lower-income groups. That didn't accord with my own experience but when I looked at the opinion poll data it was quite striking that in the US attitudes are indeed correlated with social economic status, while in the UK they are not. The only group in this country who are strongly anti-abortion appears to be, awkwardly enough, Muslims. Even Catholics are more 'liberal' than one would expect. And it really doesn't have much to do with class.

In the meantime, Atreus21, there are people out there who might die without your kidneys.
 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
126
OK, perhaps it's a matter of terminology. There may not be a right to 'bodily autonomy', but I believe there is a right to bodily integrity.

It's also a matter of practicalities - the level of control required to prevent a woman ever terminating a pregnancy doesn't seem consistent with a society concerned with human rights. If it is inside your body and it is utterly dependent on you, it's just not the same thing as a human being who is physically separate from others and part of society in their own right. Outside the womb an infant may not be 'autonomous' (are any of us?) but it could potentially be sustained and nurtured by anyone, it's not inescapably connected with one individual.

Yes, that's true.

But this is perhaps a fundamental difference in starting points, and a reason why the topic might never cease to be a matter of dispute. Though it's very notable that its much more a controversial issue in the US than in most of Europe, and that's probably to do with the effect of religion, I guess.

The one part of the British Isles (not just the UK) where attitudes remain hardline would be Northern Ireland, which is more socially conservative than either the UK or the Republic of Ireland. It seems interesting that long-standing conflict has caused both groups to remain entrenched even about the topics that they agree on. (Maybe they'd be OK with it if a three-minute warning could be given to the foetus?)

An American I know 'blamed' anti-abortion sentiment there on lower-income groups. That didn't accord with my own experience but when I looked at the opinion poll data it was quite striking that in the US attitudes are indeed correlated with social economic status, while in the UK they are not. The only group in this country who are strongly anti-abortion appears to be, awkwardly enough, Muslims. Even Catholics are more 'liberal' than one would expect. And it really doesn't have much to do with class.

In the meantime, Atreus21, there are people out there who might die without your kidneys.

All thoughtful input. But we're not talking about forcibly taking organs from people. We're talking about forcibly killing people.

Question though: If it were possible to remove the fetus to an artificial womb as soon as the mother discovered she was pregnant, without any harm to either party, would you oppose abortion? It's hardly far-fetched - they can do it with sheep now.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,201
14,877
136
Yes, that's true.



All thoughtful input. But we're not talking about forcibly taking organs from people. We're talking about forcibly killing people.

Question though: If it were possible to remove the fetus to an artificial womb as soon as the mother discovered she was pregnant, without any harm to either party, would you oppose abortion? It's hardly far-fetched - they can do it with sheep now.

You righties want to get rid of social safety nets right now, what do you think will happen with these parentless babies? Will you be willing to pay more in taxes in order to take care of them? Are you willing to accept higher crime rates that would result from millions of un-adopted children growing up? Are you ok with the increase in even more pregnancies that follows orphans who age out of the system who are never adopted?

You are compounding a problem that was already diminishing. For what? So that you can impose your personal beliefs on others?
 
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BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
So there should be no protections for the unborn up until birth then? I mean that's the simplest and most efficient way to set things up... I just happen to think we can do better than that.
OK then, as part of the plan to "do better" supporter you're saying you will agree to help raise a child whose mother for whatever reason did not want to become pregnant. You can take him/her 25% of the time and stay up when he/she can't sleep and is crying, you also get to change diapers and cut back you're work schedule. Wait, what, you want no part of this?, you'd insist that this child MUST be born so I'd insist you MUST participate in raising him/her.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
35,963
27,642
136
I don't want consistency.
There is no right to bodily autonomy. The idea that someone in society may hold themselves aloof from society makes no sense, and suggests that society in turn may hold itself aloof, selectively denying a person the protection of the laws, for example. Society manifestly does not credit the claim. Society can conscript citizens into war,, compel them to public service, prohibit them to take illegal drugs or prostitute themselves, quarantine them, take blood samples from them, and require them to receive immunizations and submit to medical examinations, all legally in the public purpose, all in one way or another taking, restricting, or intruding into the body, and all without the person's consent. In the public purpose, it can plainly prohibit a woman from deliberately killing an innocent human being.
Fertilized eggs are not people
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
26,968
35,584
136
There is no right to bodily autonomy. The idea that someone in society may hold themselves aloof from society makes no sense, and suggests that society in turn may hold itself aloof, selectively denying a person the protection of the laws, for example. Society manifestly does not credit the claim. Society can conscript citizens into war,, compel them to public service, prohibit them to take illegal drugs or prostitute themselves, quarantine them, take blood samples from them, and require them to receive immunizations and submit to medical examinations, all legally in the public purpose, all in one way or another taking, restricting, or intruding into the body, and all without the person's consent. In the public purpose, it can plainly prohibit a woman from deliberately killing an innocent human being.

Sorry, but issues of personal liberty are not the same thing as things with general populace harm. For example, no one is infected by a contagious pathogen when a woman decides not to carry her rapists fetus. Let's also keep in mind emergency powers in times of national emergency are an entirely different matter than reproductive agency and individual liberty/pursuit of happiness stuff, which are living rights afforded by a living document.

I'll keep it short. How do you reconcile the bolded opening there with that of every person being entitled to the right of self-defense? Keep in mind that people are born.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
35,203
28,219
136
You righties want to get rid of social safety nets right now, what do you think will happen with these parentless babies? Will you be willing to pay more in taxes in order to take care of them? Are you willing to accept higher crime rates that would result from millions of un-adopted children growing up? Are you ok with the increase in even more pregnancies that follows orphans who age out of the system who are never adopted?

You are compounding a problem that was already diminishing. For what? So that you can impose your personal beliefs on others?
LOL not my problem. Cross your legs slut.
 
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BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
You righties want to get rid of social safety nets right now, what do you think will happen with these parentless babies? Will you be willing to pay more in taxes in order to take care of them? Are you willing to accept higher crime rates that would result from millions of un-adopted children growing up? Are you ok with the increase in even more pregnancies that follows orphans who age out of the system who are never adopted?

You are compounding a problem that was already diminishing. For what? So that you can impose your personal beliefs on others?
Oh, it's worse, these alt-right nutbags think even birth control administered through social services must be banned too. In GA, their laws enable prosecution of a woman who goes out of state for an abortion.
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
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Moonbeam's two successive posts had great insight.

But let's stop all of this confused nonsense.

Jefferson and the other Founders came up in the "Age of Reason". Anyone who thinks they meant to establish a "Christian" nation-state is blowing wind out their keester and trying to sell it to you as fact.

The created a SECULAR nation-state, based on a notion of "The Rights of Man [Person]", in the face of their own racist hypocrisy about slavery and the role of women as chattel. "Chattel" -- that's a word one might associate as a linguistic derivative of the word "cattle", but they are both derived from the same Latin word -- capitale or capitalis, from which we also have another derivative word -- "Capital" -- as in the title of Marx's book "Das Kapital" and "capitalism".

If they invoked God in our national archive documents, it occurred in the "Declaration of Independence". That was a common practice since the Magna Carta. It's purpose was to show respect to the King in a world that favored a "Divine Right of Kings". Hobbes did it "to Please your Majesty" and offering respect to God, but he was writing about the nature of the nation-state in a world where life was "brutish, nasty and short". It was therefore appropriate, writing to King George, that these conventions were used in the Declaration, and what better way to argue "the Rights of Man" than to say they were given by God?

Check and see, but I don't think God was invoked in the text of the Constitution. The Constitution begins with the words "We the People", proceeding with the purpose to form a "more perfect union". Arguments to the contrary, the best understanding of the Constitution's very nature defines it as a legal document -- a contract -- between each and every citizen with all other citizens. To paraphrase Clint Eastwood's memorable line from Unforgiven about the word "deserves" -- "God ain't got nothin' to do with it".

What is the objective and nature of Law in the secular nation-state? Simply, it is to define a framework of a civilized society which allows people to come and go freely to pursue their various interests without harm from other individuals. To quote, as I often do, the letter read in the saloon at end of the western "The Oxbow Incident", "What is the Law?" Here again is the excerpt:

"Law is a lot more than words you put in a book......or judges or lawyers or sheriffs you hire to carry it out.
It's everything people ever have found out about justice......and what's right and wrong.

"It's the very conscience of humanity.

"There can't be any such thing as civilization.....unless people have a conscience......because if people
touch God anywhere......where is it except through their conscience? And what is anybody's conscience...
...except a little piece of the conscience of all men that ever lived?"

Now here, in this movie script, we have a nexus between "God" and the Law. I won't call it a "confusion", but it's easy to become confused. The clarification arises from reference to "people", the "conscience of humanity", "a little piece of the conscience of all men that ever lived?"

The Secular State, treating all religions equally together with "no religion" or Atheism, creates Law which is the intersection of Laws set forth in many religious beliefs, with the intention of making it possible to maintain a civil order and allow people to come and go, following their individual pursuits -- as we said. That's why the nonsense the Righties pose of a threat that we'll be infected by "Sharia Law" is just that -- nonsense. We aren't going to have laws promoted by a few, yet offensive to many.

Now we have all sorts of arguments about "when a fetus becomes a person". And we've only admitted that people of different races and people of the "fairer sex" -- are people, equal to everyone else. Since 1776, those developments were more recent.

Consider again, a quote from the New Testament known to most all, when Jesus says "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's . . . " This is famously assumed to mean "pay your [freakin'] taxes!" But if Jesus meant that, then consider what Caesar, and the Emperor Caesars who followed, did all over the Mediterranean and Europe. The Caesars killed and probably exterminated millions of people. How could Jesus tell us to pay or taxes, when the end result would be murder, war, and genocide?

So it doesn't matter whether a fetus is a "person". It does matter, though, that a fetus is part of a woman's body, and women are no longer chattel -- to be directed to bear children or forbidden to abort fetuses. If I ask a doctor to cut off my balls, would it be legal and possible? Save that for another hair-splitting argument.

If abortion is murder, remember that the neo-Nazis are all enthralled with the good ol' days of the Gurreat Roman Empire, when they killed people for sport in the Coliseum. If it's permissible by the secular state to terminate a fetus -- and we still have this ongoing, obtuse and endless discussion about "when life begins" -- and if you think abortion is a sin or it's murder, then don't get an abortion! Anyone who gets an abortion may subscribe to all of those moral prohibitions, but do it anyway. People who think theft is wrong may still be shoplifters. People who believe in the Truth may still Lie.

We allow prostitution in Reno, gambling in Las Vegas, and all sorts of things that have religious, moral prohibitions. This is because we've decided that doing these things is not a threat to the civil order.

To prevent a woman from doing as she pleases with her own body, whether she sells her flesh or terminates a fetus, is a form of oppression, unless you subscribe to the idea that women are chattel.

That's why I now declare personal civil war against the Governor and Legislature of Alabama. Show up in my State for a vacation from Alabama while supporting its government on this issue, and, given the opportunity, I'll ruin your day when I can, humiliate you in public and call you out. I'll tell you "go back to your flyover white-trash red-state shithole, mix some Kool-Aid, and book a cruise to Hell for your whole degenerate family!"

Don't impose your religious beliefs on my freedom, even if I subscribe to the same beliefs. They aren't the religious beliefs of "every man". The secular state only defines a secular morality according to what is more common to all, ensuring the progress of civilization and the preservation of a nation-state's civil order.

To be clear, you ONLY argued for the social construction of law. Just like gambling in Nevada, no-abortion in Alabama is a law. If the Law is where the consciousness of man becomes generalized; then just as we have no choice but to accept the law as it is now, you have no choice but to accept the law as it becomes.

A thing cannot be the origin of itself - therefore the law cannot be the moral basis of the law.

The secular state only defines a secular morality according to what is more common to all,
NO! NO it does not! It defines morality in terms of what is common to enough people to get a law passed.

Pedophiles don’t share our moralizing about pornography. In your system they are oppressed - as there are plenty of examples of cultures that don’t hold our “protect the children” ethos.

Don't you realize that it's a tragedy for a child to be brought up by a mother that would have preferred to have an abortion? It's A BIGGER TRAGEDY.
So ethically it's better to kill all the kids in orphanages?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,327
6,040
126
There is no right to bodily autonomy. .............. In the public purpose, it can plainly prohibit a woman from deliberately killing an innocent human being.

Any woman but the mother because to force her to carry to term against her will would make you a monster and society has a right to protect itself from letting you become that, fortunately for you.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,402
8,038
136
Don't you realize that it's a tragedy for a child to be brought up by a mother that would have preferred to have an abortion? It's A BIGGER TRAGEDY.

So ethically it's better to kill all the kids in orphanages?

Kids in orphanages are not being brought up by their mothers who would have gotten an abortion instead of going full term if they'd had their druthers. What are you drinking tonight? Sheesh.

Edit: And duh.. there'd be a lot less children in orphanages if the self-righteous holier than thou forbidders of a woman being able to exercise her right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy would STFU and live their own lives instead of imposing their will on others. Get the memo, we have really critical issues to address. Agitation for anti-abortion legislation is a distraction perpetrated by the enemy. Know your enemy!!!

 
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Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,007
572
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You righties want to get rid of social safety nets right now, what do you think will happen with these parentless babies?

I cant speak for all conservatives, but most I know dont oppose a safety net on principle. We just dont want it so expansive as to make people dependent on government. To answer your question, I dont know exactly what would happen to these parentless babies. Adoption, or some alternative for better or worse. But no matter how bad that may get, its preferable to being killed.

Will you be willing to pay more in taxes in order to take care of them?

If that's what it takes, absolutely.

Are you willing to accept higher crime rates that would result from millions of un-adopted children growing up?

As opposed to preemptively killing them? Absolutely.

Are you ok with the increase in even more pregnancies that follows orphans who age out of the system who are never adopted?

Yes, and we should offer as much help and support as possible to such women and children.

You are compounding a problem that was already diminishing. For what? So that you can impose your personal beliefs on others?

No problem on this earth should include the deliberate death of innocents among it's available solutions.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,201
14,877
136
I cant speak for all conservatives, but most I know dont oppose a safety net on principle. We just dont want it so expansive as to make people dependent on government. To answer your question, I dont know exactly what would happen to these parentless babies. Adoption, or some alternative for better or worse. But no matter how bad that may get, its preferable to being killed.



If that's what it takes, absolutely.



As opposed to preemptively killing them? Absolutely.



Yes, and we should offer as much help and support as possible to such women and children.



No problem on this earth should include the deliberate death of innocents among it's available solutions.

Then YOU might want to start electing politicians that agree with you, as of now, none of the Republican in office support your views with their actions.

But I'm sure you know that which is why your post was complete bull shit. Actions speak louder than words, your actions say you don't give a shit about the affects of abortion bans.
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
I cant speak for all conservatives, but most I know dont oppose a safety net on principle. We just dont want it so expansive as to make people dependent on government. To answer your question, I dont know exactly what would happen to these parentless babies. Adoption, or some alternative for better or worse. But no matter how bad that may get, its preferable to being killed.



If that's what it takes, absolutely.



As opposed to preemptively killing them? Absolutely.



Yes, and we should offer as much help and support as possible to such women and children.



No problem on this earth should include the deliberate death of innocents among it's available solutions.
Sorry, at the end of the day the government has NO BUSINESS getting involved in anyone's decision as to how THEY want to move forward with their lives. You dip-shit's think that "help and support" will cascade down like a magic waterfall to make a pregnant 15 yr old "all better", the alt-right-Christian movement will spend considerable resources talking/shaming/bribing a young woman out of abortion but JACK-SQUAT once the child has been born. if someone asked you if a young mother + baby can come live with you for awhile, you'd bolt like a jackrabbit.
 
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pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
12,974
7,891
136
Yes, that's true.



All thoughtful input. But we're not talking about forcibly taking organs from people. We're talking about forcibly killing people.

Question though: If it were possible to remove the fetus to an artificial womb as soon as the mother discovered she was pregnant, without any harm to either party, would you oppose abortion? It's hardly far-fetched - they can do it with sheep now.


But not giving someone your kidney could be effectively killing them. Just as not allowing them to be resident inside you could be. I'm not sure the difference is that great. There have also been historical legal cases involving sailors marooned in lifeboats that seem vaguely relevant.

As for the hypothetical question, I have to say that exact question has occurred to me in the past - I think maybe it would change the moral calculus - but it remains science-fiction, and I feel really uneasy about this whole discussion, on the basis that as a male I don't really have a lot of standing to talk about it, especially when, as others have observed, this seems to be an almost entirely male discussion.

Can't really win, though, on that score. On the one hand, we have arguments like this, that men shouldn't leave the issue entirely to women:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/18/women-abortion-rights-pro-choice-campaign

But on the other it just feels wrong to be pontificating about something that doesn't really affect me as a male. And it would be still more awkward to be a pro-choice man if you found yourself arguing against a lone woman who happened to be anti-abortion, where you were effectively telling her she was doing feminism wrong.

I remain pro-choice, because I don't like the idea of policing other people's bodies, still less the insides of those bodies. Simple as that.

If God didn't want abortion to be an issue he should have come up with a different way of reproducing the species. Some species just send their sperm out into the sea and let them swim around on their own till they find an egg lying around to be fertilized. That would certainly take a lot of the work and stress out of it all, along with the fun, I suppose.
 
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brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
25,992
23,791
136
The democrat Governor of Louisiana surely does.
Did you vote for her? Did you vote for other legislators who share your views about increasing taxes to pay for these children or did you just vote for those that opposed abortion without any plans for what came next?

Perhaps you could link up to policy positions or statements from these legislators that fully support the same ideas that you do.