"Disappearing" WMDs

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
You know, something occured to me today; the news came on and was discussing the missing weapons of mass destruction.

I remembered that the CIA totally dropped the ball on the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why? According to all of their human intelligence, the economic machine of the USSR was running full tilt, and things were good. But what they didn't realize was that the producers were fudging their numbers for the higher ups and gents in the Politburo, so the entire nation was set up on a house of cards.

Something similar could have happened in Iraq. Saddam could have ordered his generals, "Hey, I want nukes. I want bio-chem weapons. Get it done."

It's never really been revealed what our source of humint was in the Iraqi government, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that the folks Saddam ordered to do the research looked at each other and decided that they couldn't do what was asked of them . . . for whatever reason. So they fudged it, and spoofed the upper level guys (including our spies?). They came up with millions of pages of documents, and a few impressive "Mr. Wizard's Home Gas Centrifuges" to show off to the upper-level henchmen. Sure, they had poison gas from the old days that they used against the Kurds, but maybe that got spilled in the desert, or went bad, or whatever. Fill a test tube up with a vague white powder and say, "This is anthrax." Who's going to be crazy enough to think it's not real, and test it out? What does uranium look like really? Show me some yellowish rocks and say it's uranium, and if I'm one of Hussein's inner circle, I'm more than likely going to believe you. It's the Information Minister method of showing your boss that you're doing a good job.

The fact that Saddam supposedly ordered his troops to use WMDs when the coalition invaded supports this, as well - maybe they weren't used, because they didn't, in fact, actually have them.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
That sounds like a pretty sound theory to me. Sounds alot more rational then the 'They had them but then quickly moved them to Syria and Iran while our spy Satellites were doing a cosmic circle jerk' theory.

I don't doubt Saddam would've desperately wanted nukes, afterall, it's the only known defence to America's belligerence. Just ask North Korea.

BTW anyone reading about how America is pouring money into research of new 'tactical nukes' and hypersonic weapons platforms that can deliver a payload anywhere in the world in under 2 hours? Thats great budgetting while our economy is collapsing.

 

nikko

Senior member
Sep 12, 2000
775
0
71
Originally posted by: X-Man
it's entirely within the realm of possibility that the folks Saddam ordered to do the research looked at each other and decided that they couldn't do what was asked of them . . . for whatever reason. So they fudged it, and spoofed the upper level guys (including our spies?)..

There really doesn't seem to be any reason to think they did have them, in my mind. What's the point of having WMD if you don't even use them when your head is on the chopping block, as Saddam's surely was leading up to the war.

But that's not why I'm posting. I'm replying because there is a great profle on Saddam written by Mark Bowden (who wrote Black Hawk Down) that includes a passage that says his inner circle and commanders routinely submitted false reports because no one wanted to be the one to report bad news. It doesn't specifiy regarding what, but it makes it sound fairly common place, so it would not be surprising to me to hear that it extended to supposed WMD development programs. The profile is really long, but also really good. Check it out.

 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
81
its possible, but IMO its more likely they destoyed their few remaining ones before the war. I guess they figured if SH had said "Yes, I have WMDs and I will destoy them under supervision", Bush and Co could have easily spun it into a reason to attack...
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
how did you ever figure out the real truth??? he never did have them, all a house of cards, just ask all the Kurds and Iranians killed by the non existent WMD...

 

nallur

Senior member
Nov 8, 2000
209
0
0
Remember Rumsfeld's announcements about the WMDs at the start of the war?

"We know where they are, they are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."

2 months of searching and he has squat to show for it. I guess Sadam must have used up all the sarin and anthrax sold to him by Papa Bush and Reagan.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,414
8,356
126
Originally posted by: X-Man
I remembered that the CIA totally dropped the ball on the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why? According to all of their human intelligence, the economic machine of the USSR was running full tilt, and things were good. But what they didn't realize was that the producers were fudging their numbers for the higher ups and gents in the Politburo, so the entire nation was set up on a house of cards.

ummm... no, people on the ground knew the hole thing was set up on a house of card which is why reagan decided to start on star wars to show the ruskies just how far behind they were.
 

cpumaster

Senior member
Dec 10, 2000
708
0
0
I am still waiting for the Reagan's promised DeathStar to orbit earth.... let's use it to kill "terrorist" ie people who disagree with us...
 

Alistar7

Lifer
May 13, 2002
11,983
0
0
Originally posted by: nallur
Remember Rumsfeld's announcements about the WMDs at the start of the war?

"We know where they are, they are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."

2 months of searching and he has squat to show for it. I guess Sadam must have used up all the sarin and anthrax sold to him by Papa Bush and Reagan.

those areas were their major production facilities for the production of those.

out of the 21 companies that provided equipment and supplies for his WMD prgorams, 2 were in the US, 17 in the EU....

 

drewshin

Golden Member
Dec 14, 1999
1,464
0
0
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: nallur
Remember Rumsfeld's announcements about the WMDs at the start of the war?

"We know where they are, they are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."

2 months of searching and he has squat to show for it. I guess Sadam must have used up all the sarin and anthrax sold to him by Papa Bush and Reagan.

those areas were their major production facilities for the production of those.

out of the 21 companies that provided equipment and supplies for his WMD prgorams, 2 were in the US, 17 in the EU....


not 2, at least 20 or so u.s. companies.
 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
28,510
0
0
Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: nallur
Remember Rumsfeld's announcements about the WMDs at the start of the war?

"We know where they are, they are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."

2 months of searching and he has squat to show for it. I guess Sadam must have used up all the sarin and anthrax sold to him by Papa Bush and Reagan.

those areas were their major production facilities for the production of those.

out of the 21 companies that provided equipment and supplies for his WMD prgorams, 2 were in the US, 17 in the EU....


not 2, at least 20 or so u.s. companies.

just a quick google search, first thing that came up
http://www.cbc.ca/insite/COMMENTARY/2003/2/20.html
In the 12-thousand page declaration that was provided to the U.N. by Iraq in December, there was a list of the 24-American companies and 30 of their subsidiaries that provided material to Iraq.
 

Gaard

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
8,911
1
0
Originally posted by: Alistar7
how did you ever figure out the real truth??? he never did have them, all a house of cards, just ask all the Kurds and Iranians killed by the non existent WMD...

Who said never? Who ever said never?

 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
76
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: drewshin
Originally posted by: Alistar7
Originally posted by: nallur
Remember Rumsfeld's announcements about the WMDs at the start of the war?

"We know where they are, they are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."

2 months of searching and he has squat to show for it. I guess Sadam must have used up all the sarin and anthrax sold to him by Papa Bush and Reagan.

those areas were their major production facilities for the production of those.

out of the 21 companies that provided equipment and supplies for his WMD prgorams, 2 were in the US, 17 in the EU....


not 2, at least 20 or so u.s. companies.

just a quick google search, first thing that came up
http://www.cbc.ca/insite/COMMENTARY/2003/2/20.html
In the 12-thousand page declaration that was provided to the U.N. by Iraq in December, there was a list of the 24-American companies and 30 of their subsidiaries that provided material to Iraq.

Wow, how many times does that make just today that Alistar made claims of false information?

Remarkably similar to the tactics used by the administration he defends.

 

XMan

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,513
49
91
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: X-Man
I remembered that the CIA totally dropped the ball on the collapse of the Soviet Union. Why? According to all of their human intelligence, the economic machine of the USSR was running full tilt, and things were good. But what they didn't realize was that the producers were fudging their numbers for the higher ups and gents in the Politburo, so the entire nation was set up on a house of cards.

ummm... no, people on the ground knew the hole thing was set up on a house of card which is why reagan decided to start on star wars to show the ruskies just how far behind they were.

Wrong.

"I don't anything that CIA could have said - which would have sounded as follows: 'By the way, you know, the Soviet Union is really just barely above third world level, Mr. President. You don't have to spend all this money that you're spending to prepare to engage them.' Who's going to do that? Nobody did that."
 

AnitaPeterson

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
5,942
388
126
"out of the 21 companies that provided equipment and supplies for his WMD prgorams, 2 were in the US, 17 in the EU...."

yeah, "EU" in French = Etats-Unis (United States)
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Originally posted by: flavio
Wow, how many times does that make just today that Alistar made claims of false information?

Remarkably similar to the tactics used by the administration he defends.
Now that you've called him on it, he'll switch to another thread and repeat the same disinformation there. I went through it a dozen times with him; it's like a game of whack-a-mole.