Disable sleep mode when you have SSD + HDD?

[omega3]

If you have a laptop or pc with an SSD and a regular HDD as second drive, should you disable sleep mode or not.. I have my laptop connected to mains so it's more about saving energy if sleep mode really makes that much of difference in the first place.

I read that SSD's prefer no sleep mode, however your regular HDD will keep using more energy so what do you choose?

And what about hibernate.. is it normal my old laptop never goes into hibernate by itself.. if so no reason i assume to change that with an SSD cause an SSD dislikes hibernate even more then sleep if i'm correct.

Also, if you have an older sytem - my HP laptop is from around 2007/2008 as mentioned before - will your SSD be able to go to low power states like "slumber mode" or whatever it is called.

I know DevSlp works with recent chipsets so i won't be able to do that, but what about the other low power modes that modern SSD's have.. can i benifit from those with an older laptop?

 

[Carson Dyle]

You can configure the power settings to spin down ("turn off") the HDD when on mains power as well as when on battery.

 

[VirtualLarry]

SandForce-based drives are the only ones with a strong tendency to brick when used with Sleep / Hibernate. With others, I wouldn't worry.

And Windows' built-in setting for HDD spindown / power-off only applies globally, you can't apply it to just the HDD and not the SSD.

 

[Carson Dyle]

How does the powering down of drives affect SSDs? If it affects them at all, it's just going to put them into a power-savings mode.

 

[Valantar]

I've been using "hybrid sleep" (i.e. first sleep, then hibernate after 30 minutes) on my desktop with an 840 pro for a long time now, with no issues what so ever. My laptop (currently used as a HTPC) runs an OLD (>5 years) Intel X25-m 80GB, is hibernated whenever it's not used (usually several times a day), and runs like clockwork. I only ever do a full shutdown when the computer seems to need a reboot.

 

[Carson Dyle]

I've been using "hybrid sleep" (i.e. first sleep, then hibernate after 30 minutes) on my desktop with an 840 pro for a long time now, with no issues what so ever. My laptop (currently used as a HTPC) runs an OLD (>5 years) Intel X25-m 80GB, is hibernated whenever it's not used (usually several times a day), and runs like clockwork. I only ever do a full shutdown when the computer seems to need a reboot.

I wouldn't expect problems, but the issue with both is prematurely wearing out the SSD. Or, at least, that's the advice you'll read on a million web pages and that given by SSD manufacturers. From what I understand, the problem is that when using hibernate (or hybrid sleep) Windows is constantly writing to the hiberfil.sys file, in order to maintain the state of the computer should you (or it) decide to hibernate at any given moment.

I'm looking at replacing an HDD with an SSD in a laptop I own. I got to thinking about it last night. I like hibernate. A lot. I can just close the laptop in the middle of whatever I'm doing, even with open applications and even with unsaved documents. Open it back up, press the power button, wait just a few seconds and I'm right back where I was.

Without hibernate, the choices are to either use sleep mode or to explicitly shut everything down each time and power off. Sleep mode uses more power than hibernate, so what happens if the battery runs out while in sleep? And how long will the battery last? Those are a couple of things I need to test.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

I wouldn't expect problems, but the issue with both is prematurely wearing out the SSD. Or, at least, that's the advice you'll read on a million web pages and that given by SSD manufacturers. From what I understand, the problem is that when using hibernate (or hybrid sleep) Windows is constantly writing to the hiberfil.sys file, in order to maintain the state of the computer should you (or it) decide to hibernate at any given moment.

Been using a 128GB Samsung 830 as my boot drive for 4 years. Hibernated at least once a day, sometimes several. End result? ~4TB of writes according to SMART. Which translates to ~32 P/E cycles on the NAND. I think the Samsung 27nm NAND it uses is rated for 3000 or 5000 P/E cycles. In short, its not something you need to worry about any more.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Been using a 128GB Samsung 830 as my boot drive for 4 years. Hibernated at least once a day, sometimes several. End result? ~4TB of writes according to SMART. Which translates to ~32 P/E cycles on the NAND. I think the Samsung 27nm NAND it uses is rated for 3000 or 5000 P/E cycles. In short, its not something you need to worry about any more.

You could be right, although I haven't seen it stated anywhere that it's no longer a concern. Don't manufacturers' applications for SSD, such as Samsung Magician still disable hibernation?

I don't think the number of times you hibernate has much to do with how much data is written to the drive. Windows doesn't only write that data out when the system hibernates. As I understand it, it's constantly updating the file. The amount of memory you have in the system has more of an impact.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I don't think the number of times you hibernate has much to do with how much data is written to the drive. Windows doesn't only write that data out when the system hibernates. As I understand it, it's constantly updating the file. The amount of memory you have in the system has more of an impact.

Nope. Windows writes RAM to the hiberfil.sys when you hibernate. It's not constantly re-writing that file as you use your computer. The delay when you hibernate, between the screen going black, and the power LED shutting off, is Windows writing to that file.

 

[Carson Dyle]

Nope. Windows writes RAM to the hiberfil.sys when you hibernate. It's not constantly re-writing that file as you use your computer. The delay when you hibernate, between the screen going black, and the power LED shutting off, is Windows writing to that file.

Thanks for the correction. I apparently misunderstood.

Then I don't honestly understand why it's always been recommended to disable hibernation with SSDs. Not unless your system was constantly hibernating and waking up during the day.

 

[omega3]

Nope. Windows writes RAM to the hiberfil.sys when you hibernate. It's not constantly re-writing that file as you use your computer. The delay when you hibernate, between the screen going black, and the power LED shutting off, is Windows writing to that file.

Just to avoid confusion with both terms:

1. sleep mode: session is dumped to RAM so you can restart the fastest

2. hibernate: session is dumped to disk and your computer is shut off so takes alot longer to restart

My laptop (still running vista for now) does never hibernate on itself, it only goes to sleep mode.. is that normal behaviour?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Thanks for the correction. I apparently misunderstood.

Then I don't honestly understand why it's always been recommended to disable hibernation with SSDs. Not unless your system was constantly hibernating and waking up during the day.

Because people back then were paranoid about anything writing to their precious, expensive SSDs.

Back in the real world, it's a total non-issue.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Nope. Windows writes RAM to the hiberfil.sys when you hibernate. It's not constantly re-writing that file as you use your computer. The delay when you hibernate, between the screen going black, and the power LED shutting off, is Windows writing to that file.

Actually I only think windows is writing the actual contents of the memory, so its not like it writes 8GB if you have 8GB of RAM.

Because people back then were paranoid about anything writing to their precious, expensive SSDs.

Back in the real world, it's a total non-issue.

I can add that my example above is "only" a 128GB drive. If it was f.x. a 256GB or 512GB, the P/E would be halved (16), or even quartered (8) in the 512GB case, due to the additional NAND available. If you add a 1TB class drive, it gets ridiculous...

 

[omega3]

Actually I only think windows is writing the actual contents of the memory, so its not like it writes 8GB if you have 8GB of RAM.



I can add that my example above is "only" a 128GB drive. If it was f.x. a 256GB or 512GB, the P/E would be halved (16), or even quartered (8) in the 512GB case, due to the additional NAND available. If you add a 1TB class drive, it gets ridiculous...

Aren't you guys intermixing "sleep mode" with "hibernate", ie. sleep mode saves to RAM and gives fast restart while hibernate saves to disk and turns off computer. I have a Dutch OS but that's how it is with my system.

I only see my laptop go into auto-sleep mode but i've never seen it hibernating by itself.. isn't that normal behaviour.. just wanted to know.. thx.

 

[corkyg]

In a laptop, both are settings in Power Management. It depends on the brand to some extent, but mine is related to what happens when I close the lid. I choose Power Down. I never use sleep, and hibernation is disabled. With SSD, a cold boot is so fast that sleep doesn't buy much, and I have had problems in the past with waking up from sleep.

I only use my laptop when travelling, and when home, I turn it on once or twice a week to update things. So, it is really hard to make a one size fits all rule. You do what works best for you.

 

[mikeymikec]

@ omega3

The reason why sleep mode and hibernate are both being mentioned is that since 'hybrid sleep' was introduced (a safety feature whereby the contents of RAM are written to the hibernate file before S3 sleep is initiated, so that if the computer loses power during sleep mode, the session can be restored from disk if the user wishes it), as far as this topic is concerned, they have the same effect on the disk.

Hybrid sleep can be switched off, but I can't think of any good reason to, just like I can't think of a good reason to avoid using hibernation (assuming TRIM enabled SSD and OS and no known relevant issues).

@ thread in general

FYI, my desktop PC has a boot SSD in (840 PRO), and it starts Win7 as quickly as it resumes from hibernate.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Hybrid sleep can be switched off, but I can't think of any good reason to, just like I can't think of a good reason to avoid using hibernation (assuming TRIM enabled SSD and OS and no known relevant issues).

I can. Unfortunately hybrid sleep can cause all manner of strange behaviour, if you don't restart the PC from time to time. Strangely, hibernation doesn't seem to suffer from this.

 

[Carson Dyle]

The reason why sleep mode and hibernate are both being mentioned is that since 'hybrid sleep' was introduced (a safety feature whereby the contents of RAM are written to the hibernate file before S3 sleep is initiated, so that if the computer loses power during sleep mode, the session can be restored from disk if the user wishes it), as far as this topic is concerned, they have the same effect on the disk.

Hybrid sleep can be switched off, but I can't think of any good reason to, just like I can't think of a good reason to avoid using hibernation (assuming TRIM enabled SSD and OS and no known relevant issues).

I would think you use hybrid sleep for the reason you mention - you prefer to use sleep for the super fast resume, but since sleep does use more power and will gradually drain the battery, having hibernation available serves as something of a contingency in case the battery dies while sleeping.

But I could see NOT using it for the same reason you would not use sleep alone - because the battery is slowly being drained while the computer sleeps. If you go long periods between uses without the laptop getting plugged in, it would seem to me that either sleep or hybrid sleep could be undesirable. Hibernate (by itself) preserves battery power better.

@ thread in general

FYI, my desktop PC has a boot SSD in (840 PRO), and it starts Win7 as quickly as it resumes from hibernate.

If a desktop computer is constantly on power (and especially if it's on a UPS), the only reason I can think to use hibernate would be to achieve the ultimate power savings. It's an easy (lazy) way to power down without explicitly closing applications and turning off the system.

 

[mikeymikec]

AFAIK the discussion isn't about desktops or laptops in particular, but if we're talking about desktops, in my experience sleep mode uses about as many watts as powering down the PC does. I'm not sure why this is; while I would expect a desktop PC with a live mains supply to use it instead of the clock battery, I wouldn't expect the underlying hardware to use that much power (3-5W in my experience).

Re: hybrid sleep - I've never had it cause a problem, or disabling it to have any effect on one. Not saying "it doesn't cause a problem", though I am wondering whether PCs having issues were are just showing another symptom of an underlying hardware issue. My guess would be drivers.

If a desktop computer is constantly on power (and especially if it's on a UPS), the only reason I can think to use hibernate would be to achieve the ultimate power savings. It's an easy (lazy) way to power down without explicitly closing applications and turning off the system.

My desktop PC has a bizarre issue whereby it loses the CPU undervolt setting after resuming from S3, so for a long time I used hibernate or shut down depending on what my needs were at the time. Nowadays I'm not so fussed about it, so I use S3 or hibernate depending on whatever whim I'm experiencing

 

[Valantar]

I would think you use hybrid sleep for the reason you mention - you prefer to use sleep for the super fast resume, but since sleep does use more power and will gradually drain the battery, having hibernation available serves as something of a contingency in case the battery dies while sleeping.

Windows already does that with System Resume. If the battery is drained below the shutdown threshold in sleep mode, memory is copied to the HDD and the system is shut down. The next bootup lets you continue from where you left off - effectively making it an "emergency hibernation."

But I could see NOT using it for the same reason you would not use sleep alone - because the battery is slowly being drained while the computer sleeps. If you go long periods between uses without the laptop getting plugged in, it would seem to me that either sleep or hybrid sleep could be undesirable. Hibernate (by itself) preserves battery power better.

The way Hybrid sleep is implemented in Windows is designed to be a middle-of-the-road approach to these two problems. You get to choose both the time before the computer sleeps, and the time before it hibernates. Thus you get the near-instant resumes of sleep when the computer is being frequently woken up, while leaving it sleeping for more than whatever limit you set (I think the default is 30 minutes in stock Windows) hibernates it to conserve battery life.

It also removes the "hibernate" option from the power menu, btw.

If a desktop computer is constantly on power (and especially if it's on a UPS), the only reason I can think to use hibernate would be to achieve the ultimate power savings. It's an easy (lazy) way to power down without explicitly closing applications and turning off the system.

You say lazy, I say convenient. Tomato, tomato? I by far prefer not having to reopen everytihing every time I come back to the PC. One thing is web browsers that can reopen your previous session. Another is explorer windows, productivity applications and the like.


Btw, my Intel X25-m 80GB in my laptop (currently standing in for an HTPC) has seen 7,9TB of host writes over the last five years. It's been hibernated at least once a day for the past three years, and quite a bit before that. As it's a tiny drive I've never stored much media or other stuff on it, but it's been the OS drive and seen at least three OS reinstalls, with the accompanying program installs/uninstalls, updates, windows updates and all that jazz. That's almost 99 P/E cycles. The Intel SSD Toolbox still rates it as in near perfect health (there might be one grey line of pixels in the green health bar, I really can't tell) and at >95% "Drive Life Remaining." Even if modern (non-v-nand) flash tech has lower endurance, I'm not exactly worried about wearing out SSDs.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Re: hybrid sleep - I've never had it cause a problem, or disabling it to have any effect on one. Not saying "it doesn't cause a problem", though I am wondering whether PCs having issues were are just showing another symptom of an underlying hardware issue. My guess would be drivers.

You're quite right to point out drivers. My "pet" issue with hybrid sleep involves USB3 drivers. If you shut-down the PC using hybrid sleep, when you power it up again USB3 devices will only connect at USB2 speeds. This is not limited to any particular controller, or even PC, and is 100% reproducible. Even with an OS reinstall. In fact try it, you might be surprised. Since you're pretty much limited to use the MS provided USB3 drivers for 8(.1), I think its fair to blame MS for not testing the feature thoroughly...