Digital Foundry: next-gen PlayStation and Xbox to use AMD's 8-core CPU and Radeon HD

Discussion in 'CPUs and Overclocking' started by tulx, Jan 18, 2013.

  1. 2is

    2is Diamond Member

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    A huge update doesn't mean it's not a simple one. In fact, the process to update a game is identical, so yes, it is quite simple.


    Don't stop an update in the middle of an update. A golden rule been around for ages, seems simple enough to me.

    Different performance characteristics between different consoles isn't something you have to deal with at all actually. Its like me having to deal with the fact that I'm not the richest guy in the world. It's not something that requires any intervention, it just is.
     
  2. NTMBK

    NTMBK Diamond Member

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    You're missing an OS, the 360 came with a brand new AAA game bundled with it, you're not including a gaming controller, there's no wifi, and a 2GB machine (especially when sharing memory with the APU) is going to really suffer. Not to mention a single module APU is really scraping the barrel, and plenty of PC games are just not going to be tolerable on there. On a console, you're guaranteed that every single game in their library is going to be playable on your machine. Those MW3 and Skyrim benchmarks are right on the threshold of playability. Not to mention that that case is an (large) ugly throwback to a decade ago, and would be seriously out of place in a living room.
     
  3. Red Hawk

    Red Hawk Diamond Member

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    Well bricking a Wii U for stopping an unreasonably long update is simple, I guess, but not simple in a good way...

    As opposed to not having the option at all on consoles. And Skyrim on PC had no more bugs and glitches than the console versions; arguably, the consoles had more issues, with the aforementioned loading textures from the hard drive issue and performance degradation on PS3.

    Virtually every game made on Windows -- stretching back to the 90s -- can be made to work on Windows, and I'm fairly sure games from 2006 onward will have few problems on modern PC hardware. Backwards compatibility is entirely in the hands of the manufacturer on consoles.

    How do you connect consoles to the internet? If someone is really so uninformed with technology that they couldn't get a PC working, they probably had to look up how to do that. For a long time the 360 didn't even have a wireless adapter; you had to buy an overpriced hardware add-on to get wireless access. To play online you had to create an account, and any number of things could go wrong with that process.

    The specific things I mentioned did not happen on PC, they happened only on consoles. And while it's true that individual games can be hacked and brought down, it's virtually impossible to bring down the ability of PCs to play online as a whole, which is what happened to the PS3. But I can't even think of an example of a single game on PC which went down for anywhere near the amount of time that PSN did.
     
  4. 2is

    2is Diamond Member

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    When you first power on a console, it walks you through a wizard to connect it to the Internet. You are really not going to convince anyone that PC's are just as simple to use. You are on a tech forum, talking to people who are intimately familiar with both of them, if you can't convince us, good luck convincing someone who knows next to nothing about a PC. I've also had plenty of less savvy friends seek my assistance to help them troubleshoot PC gaming issues from time to time. They have never needed my help with their consoles.

    You can cherry pick various issues that have happened with different consoles, but all you're proving is they are not perfect, which no one is claiming. You're hardly proving they are not simpler to use.
     
  5. Red Hawk

    Red Hawk Diamond Member

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    Consoles are simpler than PCs, that much is certain. MightyMalus' post went beyond that, though; he was saying consoles don't have any issues when compared to PCs. That is just as plainly not true. No one ever asks for help with consoles because if one runs into a problem there's usually nothing that can be done, no matter your technical expertise. As Jim Sterling said, with the recent console generation consoles have become more alike to PCs, but mostly in the negative side rather than the positives.
     
  6. Maragark

    Maragark Member

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    AAA gamers don't game on Apple products. They game on a Windows PC, a PS3 or an Xbox360, so what Apple and other tech companies do is irrelevant.

    As for consoles selling really well if cheap and powerful, I agree. It's just that if PCs are more powerful and cheaper, then a lot of people will choose the PC over the console.

    As for COD, it works fine on a PC. You can even get 30fps @ 720p using an A4-5300 Trinity APU - a $55 chip. An A10-5800K can do 150fps at 1080p for $130.
     
  7. Maragark

    Maragark Member

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    It's also not a fact that the sun will rise tomorrow but it is highly likely. AAA gamers will buy the system which they think will give them the best gaming experience at the best value. If that's a PC then that's what they will buy.

    As for console exclusives not working on a PC, how do you play PC exclusives on a console?
     
  8. 2is

    2is Diamond Member

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    You don't, never claimed you can. One glaring difference though. Most PC exclusives are indie titles, versus AAA titles for Console exclusives.

    As someone mentioned, if you think SFF gaming systems are going to compete with next gen consoles in numbers, you're dreaming. You'll wake up once we see the sales figures of AAA titles that are available on both platforms.
     
  9. Maragark

    Maragark Member

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    Throw on Linux, Steam and TF2 and I did include a gaming controller - a wireless keyboard and mouse. If you want me to add the cost of a gamepad then you need to add the cost of a compatible keyboard and mouse.

    As for no wifi, you can get a wifi card for £5 but you don't need one. Besides, all the console users I know hate playing over wifi and use a wired connection anyway.

    For an extra £5 you can get 2x2GB RAM, so no big deal.

    Regarding the weakness of the system, it's not meant to be a good gaming PC, it was meant to offer similar performance to an Xbox360 which it does. Check the link again, those benchmarks are not using low-medium settings.

    You're overestimating the requirements for gaming at 720p at 30 fps with low-mid settings. Even Brazos can handle a lot of games at that level.

    As for the looks, I just picked any cheap case with PSU, given the variety and availability of them, I'm sure you could find one that didn't upset you if you looked yourself. Besides there's nothing really ugly about that case, it's just a plain, bog standard, cheappo case.
     
  10. Maragark

    Maragark Member

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    I wonder where the consoles got that idea from?

    On a PC, to connect to a wireless network, you click your name from a list and type in your password. Simple as that, job done, end of story, Meanwhile, 5 minutes later back on the console, you've just finished entering your password using your gamepad and onscreen keyboard. Connecting to a wifi network is far simpler and far quicker using a PC than a console.
     
  11. MisterMac

    MisterMac Senior member

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    When will you realize that for your budget of a SFF PC "Console" - you'd also have to built it yourself?

    That will not work for the target market.

    The SFF also has no optical drive for installation - or ease this way.

    If any Boutique builder can create a SFF gamer console pc - and make money of it, they would.

    They can't.

    They'd have nearly double mark up - with the branding, the advertising, the making sure they get titles.

    What do you think will happen once a dude who's sitting playing 1080p, (REAL 1080p - something most last gen's didn't) - and gets a choice of set maxing stuff out realizes 5 fps really ain't that fun on a 50inch LCD 1080p tv?

    He'll call it crap - comparing to his alpha-phi bro's whos got on consoles that just "work".

    Even if it's an illusion on upscaling - you think the average person knows that?



    If so - lets please bet 1000 USD by the time the Next Gen consoles arrive - SFF pcs will sell as much as just 1 of the other consoles in the same timeframe.

    How about that?
     
  12. Maragark

    Maragark Member

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    So why mention exclusives then? A game exclusive to one platform will only work on that platform. Besides, the vast majority of games are not exclusives.

    From a performance and price perspective and the rumours, an SFF PC will compete with next gen consoles. They'll provide far greater functionality though and the same games at a lower cost, therefore far better value.

    As I've already shown, consoles don't sell that well in the first year or two and AMD will have 14nm HSA APUs in 2016 with a more powerful GPU than what's in the consoles and DDR will be out. You'll be able to build an SFF PC in 2016 that is far more powerful than the next gen consoles for the same price.

    People buy consoles because they're affordable gaming systems. It a better performing system comes out and is more affordable then people will obviously buy it. People will buy the better performing console even if it's more expensive. We know this for a fact because we've seen it happen many times over the decades with various new players entering the market. If this wasn't true. Then PlayStaton and Xbox wouldn't even exist.
    To expect the situation to be completely different for SFF PCs is ludicrous.
     
  13. NTMBK

    NTMBK Diamond Member

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    Linux really isn't a suitable gaming OS at this point, as far too few games are on it. Hopefully Valve will change that in the future, but that's just how it is right now. So there goes another £70 on a Windows 8 license.

    I use wifi on my 360. I live in rented accommodation, so I can't just go drilling holes in walls and laying Cat5 everywhere- and just having cables trailing across the floor is a pretty horrible solution. A good wireless-N connection is my preferred solution, and a decent wireless-N dongle will be around £10.

    Mouse and keyboard? For living room gaming, seriously? Yeesh. They are not going to work unless you are sat at a desk. For a PC meant for playing on the sofa, you want a good quality gamepad. The 360 wired controller costs about £20- and you'll still need a mouse and keyboard for setting up the PC and driving it generally. And no, I'm not adding the cost of a mouse and keyboard for the 360, because we're talking about a sofa gaming setup here.

    I would most definitely want to spend the extra £5 on the doubled RAM.

    As for the case- frankly, the main issue is that it is way, way oversized. You can't put it in the shelving units under your TV the way you can a console, and it will sit in the corner taking up a large chunk of space. People have come up with a solution to this situation, and it is called Mini-ITX. Mini-ITX case and mini-ITX motherboards are a necessity to a living room gaming machine, if you want to produce something approaching the convenience of a console. And both that motherboard and that case will be more expensive than their ATX counterpart. Getting the AsRock FM2 miniITX motherboard with WIFI will set you back almost double the number you had for that motherboard, for instance.

    Don't get me wrong- I like SFF PCs, I think they're very neat, and I'm strongly considering a Kaveri SFF if it turns out well. But don't try to pretend that they're as affordable as a console.

    EDIT: On the subject of SFF gaming PCs, I'm still waiting for a case manufacturer to copy the general layout of Alienware's X51. A mini-ITX board with a riser card for the PCIe-x16 slot? Genius! It lets you have a discrete graphics card but still keep the low-and-wide profile expected from consoles, set top boxes etc.

    EDIT 2: Also, no optical drive? How am I going to watch DVDs and install old games now?
     
    #488 NTMBK, Feb 2, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  14. Maragark

    Maragark Member

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    Fortunately, I played with LEGO as a child, so I'm fully qualified to build a PC. What makes you think that you can't buy pre-built SFF PCs though?

    Gateway SX2380-UR308 (DT.GDEAA.001) Desktop PC A4-Series APU A4-5300(3.40GHz) 4GB DDR3 1TB HDD Capacity AMD Radeon HD 7480D Windows 8

    An optical drive isn't required so why waste money or space? The $400 for the SFF PC I mentioned earlier did include an optical drive though. as does the above PC.

    Have you not heard about Valve making an SFF gaming PC?

    An A10-5800K can handle all but the most demanding games at 1080p with more than 30fps. Kaveri will offer a good bit of improvement over that and Kaveri in dual mode with a HD7750 would be not far off HD7850 levels of performance. With each die shrink, more powerful GPUs will be integrated and in 2016, a 14nm APU will have a more powerful GPU than the HD7850, that's just 2 years after the release of the next gen consoles.

    If someone set all the settings to max and gets 5 fps, I expect they'd do the same thing as any other rational person - change the settings so they no longer get 5 fps.

    If an SFF PC is similarly priced and provides similar performance to the next gen consoles, you'd have to be completely ignorant not to consider it. Given that a similarly priced and similarly performing PC will always be far better value than a console. This is not because consoles are bad or any elitist or fanboy nonsense like it, it is purely a matter of unrestricted functionality and cheaper games.
     
  15. 2is

    2is Diamond Member

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    I mention them because there are a lot more AAA exclusives on consoles than there are on PCs. Also, since you seem to have discovered what the rest of the world has not, in that PCs are simpler than consoles, what makes you think this time around everyone will realize this? I'm clearly being sarcastic, anyone that thinks PCs are simpler or even just as simple IMO has no clue what he/she is talking about.

    As far as Rumors that SFF will compete, I haven't heard such "optimistic" rumors until now. I think you're stretching reality a touch here.
     
    #490 2is, Feb 2, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  16. MightyMalus

    MightyMalus Senior member

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    But what does this have to do with the console and not the @%^$#!!! company that made the game? As you yourself said, the issues were also on the PC. And most games don't come out that messed up.

    A closed system will always be "better" than an open system. For instance Steam games is better than none Steam PC games, it seams.(I don't use it) But why?
    Why is steam so great? It makes PC gaming easier, right? Heard something like that, makes updates easier and such? But, why? Because its a closed system.

    In a programing sense, its like building a Flash or Java game. Its simpler and easier, because its "closed" in a way. Upgrades and updates are pretty much automatic. Yes, you might deal with some issues with the runner/console/closedsystem, but, those are less than all the **** you can deal with in a completely open system like a PC.

    For instance, I couldn't find the specs for two games awhile ago. I just went ahead and d/led them (F2P), after about 30gbs for both, neither worked on my PC. If they had made a simple "test system" to see if I could play it, I would have avoided all of that. Or knowing a thing or two about tech myself, I could have lived fine if they had put their min specs on their site.

    Its funny tho, about the whole PC being simpler and such. Windows 8, as much as it has been criticized, will make the PC simpler to use. Take Win8RT for example, its all GUI based, like a console. Or is the console OS's harder to navigate in your mind?
     
  17. 2is

    2is Diamond Member

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    You keep saying this, but you're failing to account for the price of the Operating System and Input Device(s) so there goes your price advantage.

    Lets look at performance now. A general purpose OS like Windows needs far more resources than a purpose built OS. You can't slap the same or slightly more powerful hardware in a PC and expect it to perform the same or better. It's never happened before, it won't happen this time around either. Most PC games are console ports and are hardly ever as efficient in terms of their resource usage. This issue will undoubtedly be less of an issue since the hardware is now very similar, but unlikely to go away completely. There goes your performance advantage, at least if you're trying to stay in the same price range.

    Lets move to functionality. I can get 4 people together for a game of Madden huddled around the same TV each with a controller in their hands. I'd love to see you do that easily (if at all) on a PC. You may not be able to run MS Word on a PS4, but we are talking about gaming here so we need to talk about gaming functionality.

    In short, your theory of SFF replacing consoles is based off a combination of incomplete and/or incorrect information
     
    #492 2is, Feb 2, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  18. Maragark

    Maragark Member

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    Windows is probably the most pirated piece of software in history. The reality is that a large number of PC gamers don't have a valid Windows licence.

    A wireless-N PCI card is £5.50 on eBuyer.

    I use a Logitech MK300 wireless keyboard and mouse for gaming in my living room all the time. I've had quite a few Logitech wireless desktops and never had aproblem with using them from the couch. I've also got a lot of PC gamepads going back to the late 90s. The keyboard and mouse work fine though, keyboard on knees, mouse on the couch. Why not use them? Some types of games are just better with a gamepad though and that's the only time I use my Xbox360 pad.


    I know but you never stated that the £150 PC needed to be a mini-ITX system. The $400 SFF PC I was talking about was using a mini-ITX FM2 motherboard and a Thermaltake Element Q VL52021N2U mini-ITX case though.

    I'm not pretending anything. It is a fact that you can build a mini-ITX PC with A10-5800K, 2x4 GB DDR3 1866 MHz RAM, 500 GB HD and DVD Writer for around $400. That's a far more powerful system than the PS3 or Xbox360 and offers far better value. Now, replace the A10-5800K with the A4-5300 (from the £150 system) and replace the 8GB with 4GB and the system costs around $300. That's clearly just as affordable as a console and we've already seen that it will provide a similar level of graphical performance.

    It didn't have a floppy drive either. A PC connected to the internet has access to pretty much every piece of content that has been digitised. I'm sure you'll suss it out eventually.
     
  19. 2is

    2is Diamond Member

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    Plenty of people still have games on optical media which they either don't want or cannot re-purchase digitally. Thanks for yet another example of incomplete or simply wrong information.

    I doubt many people have games on floppy drives and I know no games are sold on floppies either, so your attempt at being condescending fails you there.

    As far as windows being pirated, well I can buy a stolen Playstation too for a fraction of the price... So again, your price advantage is gone.

    The fact that this is primarily a PC forum with lots of PC gamers yet you have this many people disagreeing with you should tell you something.
     
    #494 2is, Feb 2, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  20. Maragark

    Maragark Member

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    So how do you play PS3 exclusives on an Xbox360 and vice versa? This is a not a PC problem, this is an industry problem of console makers bribing game devs not to make their games available for other platforms.

    I don't think PCs are simpler than consoles, but anything involving typing will always be simpler with an actual keyboard compared to using a gamepad and onscreen keyboard. I was addressing the specific example you brought up. Saying that though, it really isn't difficult to boot a PC, install a game and play it. My seven year old niece can do it.

    As for SFF PCs competing with next gen consoles, you can work it out from the specs. The leaks say that the next gen consoles will have 7850 level performance. We know that Kaveri will have 8 CUs, that HD7750 has 8 CUs and that HD7750 has about half the performance of the HD7850. Kaveri + HD7750 in dual mode would fall between 7770 and 7850 level performance. I expect Kaveri will launch at a similar price as all the other APUs have - no more than $150 for the top end part. I also expect that by the time Kaveri launches, there will be more mini-ITX motherboards and cases and we'll see lower prices for them as well as for the other components. Due to these reductions in component prices, I'm expecting around a $50 reduction on the total system cost. The 7750 should also fall in price a bit, I'd say to around $60-$70. So a Kaveri + HD7750 SFF PC should cost around $10-$20 more than an A10-5800K SFF system does today which puts it at under $450.

    How much do you think the next gen consoles will cost at launch?
     
  21. 2is

    2is Diamond Member

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    I won't bother quoting you since you keep repeating yourself and dont want to waste bandwidth. You can't "work it out from the specs" it doesn't matter how many times you keep saying it. All the reasons why have already been mentioned.
     
  22. VulgarDisplay

    VulgarDisplay Diamond Member

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    How many years old is the xbox 360 now? Around 7 years? So you've spent nearly $420 dollars on xbox live at this point. Glad you think the console's are cheaper. Don't forget your $10 on average cost per game as well.

    The math doesn't add up in favor of consoles.
     
  23. 2is

    2is Diamond Member

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    And in spite of that, gaming PC's still don't compete in terms of sales, and that's what this is about. Sales.

    But lets compare apples to apples. How many PC gamers keep the same hardware for 7 years? I'm a PC gamer, and I can assure you I've spend a whole lot more than $420 keeping my hardware current over the last 7 years. Cost of games? I'm sure you are well aware there are more and more games PC hitting the $59.99 mark.

    But please, continue to tell me how it is that PC Gaming is cheaper, more capable, just as easy to use but still makes up for a small fraction of total gamers out there? What is it that the rest of the world is missing here?
     
    #498 2is, Feb 2, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  24. Maragark

    Maragark Member

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    I didn't leave out an input device, I included a wireless keyboard and mouse. I did leave out the price for the OS. Some people have no problems with not paying for one and that's none of my business. I couldn't care less if they purchase Windows or pirate it. And then there's Linux.

    Most PC games are not console ports at all. What you mean is that a lot of AAA games over the past few years have been console ports. These account for a very small percentage of the total of PC games which has decades of history.

    I don't expect PC software to offer the same performance as console software on the same hardware, I said similar performance. Also, I stated quite clearly that I don't expect a single APU to overtake console performance until 14nm APUs are released which is likely to be in 2016, but console sales tend to peak at around year 2 or 3.

    I used to do that all the time with FIFA so I know for a fact that it's possible. That was back in 2005. It involved plugging controllers into USB ports. Extremely difficult stuff.

    I'd love to see you create a game on your console.

    An SFF PC does not just provide gaming functionality or media center functionality though so why restrict it just because consoles are restricted to that functionality? This is precisely what I mean when I say a PC is far more functional than a console. You can game on it, you can consume media, you can create your own games on it, use it to do your homework, your work, a spot of online banking, some online shopping, etc. This all adds to the value of the SFF PC, making it the better choice if price and performance are similar.

    No it isn't. It's based on the available data, rumours and the understanding that people would rather pay less for more value, rather than pay more for less value. In other words, common sense.
     
  25. Maragark

    Maragark Member

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    You may not be able to, but I have no problem doing so and I'm pretty sure a lot of others here will have no problem doing so. Can I predict the exact performance or prices? Of course not. I can quite easily estimate them though based on the available data and leaks.