Difference in UHC around the world

[bbdub333]

Since everyone seems so intent on having UHC in America, and it's often cited that countries with UHC are successful... so America's implementation must be successful also. However, the systems in place around the world are all different, and fit different cultures, so just saying that we need UHC without saying what kind is what is going to lead to failure.

From a PBS special in 2008

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/...undtheworld/countries/

Personally, I like Switzerland. Private insurance, with insurers prohibited from making a profit on the most basic, comprehensive coverage plans. Those who can't afford the premiums for that are helped by the government. Everyone must buy a plan. Companies would make a profit on plans that people choose to buy which are above and beyond the coverage offered by basic plans.

Potential problem would be, that as noted in the article, Swiss drug companies make 1/3 of their profit in America... which brings up the bigger question, how much is America subsidizing the health care of other nations already? If we implemented a similar system here, how much would research and development be affected? How much do other countries rely on American spending on health care?

 

[Possessed Freak]

$750 a month? I pay 73/mo right now.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm glad the French are writing our health care... No wait.
That's a curious thing. Not all programs are equal and a common assumption is because plan X is good that's what were going to get without any evidence to support that assumption.

If you do not know what is happening and understand the consequences thereof you cannot know anything.

 

[SammyJr]

Originally posted by: Possessed Freak
$750 a month? I pay 73/mo right now.

Yeah, how much does your employer pay?

I pay $130/month for my family. My employer pays about $800/month.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
I'm glad the French are writing our health care... No wait.
That's a curious thing. Not all programs are equal and a common assumption is because plan X is good that's what were going to get without any evidence to support that assumption.

If you do not know what is happening and understand the consequences thereof you cannot know anything.

So if you can't be Nostradamus, might as well stop thinking entirely.

 

[Phokus]

Taiwan was lucky as hell letting other developed countries do their healthcare experiments before developing their own. 6.3 % of GDP, that's ridiculous.

Taiwan is pretty much living proof that single payer healthcare is the way to go. They didn't give a shit about the free market vs. socialism debate, they just wanted the best system.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Nostradamos?
No, not really but if you want to sell something at any cost you could misrepresent it that way. I'm just not a Believer.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

Originally posted by: Phokus
Taiwan was lucky as hell letting other developed countries do their healthcare experiments before developing their own. 6.3 % of GDP, that's ridiculous.

Taiwan is pretty much living proof that single payer healthcare is the way to go. They didn't give a shit about the free market vs. socialism debate, they just wanted the best system.

Except Taiwan's system is not what's being proposed in the US either. Things in Taiwan are done quite well if you haven't noticed. Their subway systems put the ones in the US to shame. Same with their bus system. Of course these things might be easier done when you have a population smaller than the state of CA and you have the US military covering your ass from your only threat, mainland China.

Unfortunately Taiwan suffers from a shortage of doctors and slow adaptation of technology.

 

[Modelworks]

People in Canada that get health care via lottery. That's right folks, step right up, put your name in the hat and if you are the lucky person picked the doctor will see you !

The one thing none of the pro UHC people address is if it already takes me a week to see my doctor, what is going to happen when you dump millions of more people on the system ? Corruption is the answer. People paying the doctors and specialist more on the side to get bumped up the list.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: DLeRium

Originally posted by: Phokus
Taiwan was lucky as hell letting other developed countries do their healthcare experiments before developing their own. 6.3 % of GDP, that's ridiculous.

Taiwan is pretty much living proof that single payer healthcare is the way to go. They didn't give a shit about the free market vs. socialism debate, they just wanted the best system.

Except Taiwan's system is not what's being proposed in the US either. Things in Taiwan are done quite well if you haven't noticed. Their subway systems put the ones in the US to shame. Same with their bus system. Of course these things might be easier done when you have a population smaller than the state of CA and you have the US military covering your ass from your only threat, mainland China.

Unfortunately Taiwan suffers from a shortage of doctors and slow adaptation of technology.

Taiwan's (and Japan's) "problem" is the opposite of ours, they spend too little on healthcare. If they spent a little more than a paltry 6.5% of GDP, they could probably alleviate some of their problems. However, given the tradeoffs, they have a much better system than ours.

 

[ZzZGuy]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
People in Canada that get health care via lottery. That's right folks, step right up, put your name in the hat and if you are the lucky person picked the doctor will see you !

The one thing none of the pro UHC people address is if it already takes me a week to see my doctor, what is going to happen when you dump millions of more people on the system ? Corruption is the answer. People paying the doctors and specialist more on the side to get bumped up the list.

That is bullshit and you know it or are too stupid to know it.

You'll now argue that you meant something else, but the bold part is still bullshit you pulled out of your ass to support your argument.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: ZzZGuy

Originally posted by: Modelworks
People in Canada that get health care via lottery. That's right folks, step right up, put your name in the hat and if you are the lucky person picked the doctor will see you !

The one thing none of the pro UHC people address is if it already takes me a week to see my doctor, what is going to happen when you dump millions of more people on the system ? Corruption is the answer. People paying the doctors and specialist more on the side to get bumped up the list.

That is bullshit and you know it or are too stupid to know it.

You'll now argue that you meant something else, but the bold part is still bullshit you pulled out of your ass to support your argument.

Call up ABC news and complain:

http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=7903062

Or you could search for yourself instead of assuming everyone that disagrees with you is stupid.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=10c_1218119992

In the latest jarring illustration of the country's doctor shortage, a family physician in Northern Ontario has used a lottery to determine which patients would be ejected f More..rom his overloaded practice.

Dr. Ken Runciman says he reluctantly eliminated about 100 patients in two separate draws to avoid having to provide assembly-line service or extend already onerous work hours, and admits the move has divided the close-knit community of Powassan.

Yet it was not the first time such methods have been employed to determine medical service. A new family practice in Newfoundland held a lottery last month to pick its caseload from among thousands of applicants. An Edmonton doctor selected names randomly earlier this year to pare 500 people from his heavy caseload. And in Ontario, regulators have heard reports of a number of other physicians also using draws to choose, or remove, patients.

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
People in Canada that get health care via lottery. That's right folks, step right up, put your name in the hat and if you are the lucky person picked the doctor will see you !

For those who might want to get a little more info:
[*]Mythbusting Canadian Health Care -- Part I
[*]Mythbusting Canadian Health Care, Part II: Debunking the Free Marketeers
[*]Defending Canada's Health Care: Truths and Lies

Note: Canada does not actually have a single national system. Health care in Canada consists of 13 socialized insurance plans which must conform to national standards and are administered by province.

 

[theeedude]

I don't expect Modelworks to retract his false statements. I am guessing he is a Republican.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I don't expect Modelworks to retract his false statements. I am guessing he is a Republican.

I'm neither.


It isn't false. Google canada + health care + lottery

What do you call a doctors office where the secretary draws names out of a box to see who can become a patient ?

From 2005 before the issue was a big deal in the USA
http://www.nationalreview.com/...ratzer200511280818.asp

Take Canada?s much vaunted health-care system. In a recent poll, more than 80 percent of Canadians rate the system ?in crisis.? People wait for practically any diagnostic test, surgical procedure, or specialist consult. The doctors? shortage is so severe that, in Norwood, Ont., winning the town lottery isn?t a ticket to material wealth. With just one family doctor to service the entire town, the physician takes only 50 new patients a year. As a result, the town holds an annual lottery with the 50 winners getting an appointment with him.

 

[little elvis]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: senseamp
I don't expect Modelworks to retract his false statements. I am guessing he is a Republican.

I'm neither.


It isn't false. Google canada + health care + lottery

What do you call a doctors office where the secretary draws names out of a box to see who can become a patient ?

From 2005 before the issue was a big deal in the USA
http://www.nationalreview.com/...ratzer200511280818.asp

Take Canada?s much vaunted health-care system. In a recent poll, more than 80 percent of Canadians rate the system ?in crisis.? People wait for practically any diagnostic test, surgical procedure, or specialist consult. The doctors? shortage is so severe that, in Norwood, Ont., winning the town lottery isn?t a ticket to material wealth. With just one family doctor to service the entire town, the physician takes only 50 new patients a year. As a result, the town holds an annual lottery with the 50 winners getting an appointment with him.

Nice job quoting an article that doesn't list a source for the poll, not only that, the article is over 4 years old.

Here is a recent survey

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/72229.html

The Canadian health system is not perfect, but nobody said it was.

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: little elvis

Nice job quoting an article that doesn't list a source for the poll, not only that, the article is over 4 years old.

That is the reason I quoted it, because it is over 4 years old it wasn't created to dispute the UHC bill in the USA like a lot of sites. Did Canada revamp their healthcare in the past 4 years ? I'm guessing no.


Anyone that thinks that when you dump a bunch of people onto the current system and magically a bunch of new doctors will appear to handle the load needs to lay off the drinking.


Read the comments by people that live in those areas:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfo...15/gander-lottery.html

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: little elvis

Nice job quoting an article that doesn't list a source for the poll, not only that, the article is over 4 years old.

That is the reason I quoted it, because it is over 4 years old it wasn't created to dispute the UHC bill in the USA like a lot of sites. Did Canada revamp their healthcare in the past 4 years ? I'm guessing no.


Anyone that thinks that when you dump a bunch of people onto the current system and magically a bunch of new doctors will appear to handle the load needs to lay off the drinking.


Read the comments by people that live in those areas:
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfo...15/gander-lottery.html

LOL
Did you even read the link?

A Gander man who lost out in a controversial central Newfoundland patient registry says it's unacceptable that he and others have to seek routine prescriptions from emergency room physicians.

Notice that is the system we have in place for treating the uninsured in the US, and it's UNACCEPTABLE even to a critic of Canada's system.

"It's hard, and to go to [the] emergency ward just for small things ? I mean, the doctors down there look at you like, 'Why are you wasting my time just getting prescriptions filled when we got more important people that need it?' "

Why aren't we asking this same questions in America, and find it perfectly acceptable to treat people in ERs for what should be covered at a doctor's office?

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Why aren't we asking this same questions in America, and find it perfectly acceptable to treat people in ERs for what should be covered at a doctor's office?

People do ask the same questions. The problem is there is no easy solution. It would be great to say "lets give everyone a doctors appointment and any medical care they need", but who is going to provide it ? In my state alone they have closed hospitals cutting back over 300 beds not increased them. The local doctors offices are already turning people away because they don't have enough doctors.

What is going to happen when they put even more people on that system ? How are you going to choose who gets care ? Who gets the right to pick who is serious or who can wait ?

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: senseamp

Why aren't we asking this same questions in America, and find it perfectly acceptable to treat people in ERs for what should be covered at a doctor's office?

People do ask the same questions. The problem is there is no easy solution. It would be great to say "lets give everyone a doctors appointment and any medical care they need", but who is going to provide it ? In my state alone they have closed hospitals cutting back over 300 beds not increased them. The local doctors offices are already turning people away because they don't have enough doctors.

What is going to happen when they put even more people on that system ? How are you going to choose who gets care ? Who gets the right to pick who is serious or who can wait ?

I just think it's hilarious and ironic that the Canadian UHC horror story that you chose to post is of a guy complaining that he has to use the ER for routine car, which is actually something conservatives brag about when they say we don't need UHC because we already provide care to anyone in the ER. I am sorry if the irony escapes you

 

[Athena]

Originally posted by: Modelworks
[What do you call a doctors office where the secretary draws names out of a box to see who can become a patient ?

I would call it an out of control doctor's office -- not a national health care system.

What would you call a system that allows a private insurer to collect premiums from subscribers then disontinue coverage when they need expensive treatment -- based on decisions that were proven to be incorrect 72% of the time?

Answer: Blue Cross of California -- 6,000 patients affected

What would you call a company that didn't just praise employees for limiting payments but actually paid paid bonuses based on the amount the reviewer successfully avoided paying by digging up non-relevant "pre-existing" conditions?

Answer: HealthNet

In the last five years, 3 large US insurers US have cancelled the policies of 20,000 paying subscribers to avoid paying $300K in claims. Talk about a lottery!

 

[Modelworks]

Originally posted by: Athena

Originally posted by: Modelworks
[What do you call a doctors office where the secretary draws names out of a box to see who can become a patient ?

I would call it an out of control doctor's office -- not a national health care system.

A doctors office for a province that the national health care system is supposed to provide care for but is so lacking that people have to go to the ER to get drug refills.


The only thing that will come from UHC is corruption and rationing.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Modelworks

Originally posted by: Athena

Originally posted by: Modelworks
[What do you call a doctors office where the secretary draws names out of a box to see who can become a patient ?

I would call it an out of control doctor's office -- not a national health care system.

A doctors office for a province that the national health care system is supposed to provide care for but is so lacking that people have to go to the ER to get drug refills.
The only thing that will come from UHC is corruption and rationing.

Going to ER for routine care is status quo for 50 million uninsured people in the US. Notice how it is such an outrage when it happens to a Canadian, it gets published in a paper.
So what is an outrage in Canada is status quo for US. I find that outrageous.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Sigh.
If patients are denied health care because a system routinely does not supply the funding needed, then it is a bad system. There needs to be flexibility when there are special situations.

If patients are denied health care because they are singled out to be dumped even after paying their premiums, that's bad.


Chances are in both cases this is the exception rather than the rule. There are many offices in Canada which do not have that problem, and many insurance companies which don't dump.

It's not an either/or. A thing is wrong on it's own merits and situation.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Sigh.
If patients are denied health care because a system routinely does not supply the funding needed, then it is a bad system. There needs to be flexibility when there are special situations.

If patients are denied health care because they are singled out to be dumped even after paying their premiums, that's bad.


Chances are in both cases this is the exception rather than the rule. There are many offices in Canada which do not have that problem, and many insurance companies which don't dump.

It's not an either/or. A thing is wrong on it's own merits and situation.

This is not about rescission. We are talking about uninsured people many of whom cannot afford insurance in the first place and get routine treatment at the ER by design, because that's the only place that is mandated to provide them care.