Diesel cars - Why arent they more popular here - more fuel efficiency and better T

[The Stigenator]

I was googling something the other night noted the following.

1. Mazda USA has the Skyactiv Diesel promo on their website. Searchable by google but not directly hot linked.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/vid...aylistId=1DD18B423A1D109E&videoId=cK5SQkEUBdo

This in interesting technology from Mazda. No use of Urea systems and same reliability..

2. Apparently Suzuki just came out with a diesel hybrid. Since they licensed parts of the Toyota synergy system, I cant see why it cant be used on the new prius or other cars. A small 1.5L diesel will provide far more power and fuel efficiency than a gasoline engine.

This is the car: Maruti Suzuki Ciaz. Its got a 1.3L diesel engine. Estimated 78 mpg on diesel alone! With the hybrid it should go 100 mpg.

http://www.marutisuzuki.com/ciaz.aspx


Seems to me diesel hybrid's are the way to go. I know my next car will be a diesel but wondering why not manufacture a diesel hybrid.

 

[cbrunny]

I have a 2014 Chevy Cruze 2.0L Turbo Diesel. Faaaaaantastic. Between 1100 and 1200 kms on a 59L tank, which is between 44 and 48 MPG.

 

[mmntech]

I wrote an article on this a while back for a now defunct commuter magazine. There's a number of factors why diesel never really caught on in North America.

While diesels do have better fuel economy, they tend to cost thousands more up front. Meaning it can take several years before fuel savings start to pay off. Plus they don't usually benefit from the same government incentives as hybrids and EVs do. US taxes on diesel fuel also tends to average about 7% more than petrol. Which is why diesel is often more expensive these days.

Choice is also fairly limited here. Most automakers do make diesel variants for most of their vehicles that are sold in the European market. However, Europe has much looser regulations on diesel emissions than the US does. I think a lot of automakers just can't be bothered modifying their vehicles to meet strict EPA numbers. Only German automakers seem inclined to make diesel cars and SUVs for the American market. Out of those, Volkswagen is the only non-luxury marque that I know of. While the TDI is a very good engine, I'd still rather not be stuck with a VW and its wonky electrics.

A lot of domestic manufacturers also take a bit of a half-arsed approach to diesel cars. I think they mostly get made to satisfy EPA average fuel economy quotas. Not because they actually want to make them.

Diesel also still suffers from a reputation that it's loud, dirty and thus bad for the environment. When people see buses, trucks, and those idiot coal rollers belching thick, black, noxious smoke, that's the image they get of a diesel. Smog problems in major European cities like London and Paris don't help matters. Of course as noted above, that's due to loose emissions regulations in Europe. American diesels are much cleaner. Plus the fact that clean fuels can be made from recycled cooking oils. But the stereotype remains.

People here shopping for a eco vehicle will tend to migrate towards hybrid options. Simply because they're better marketed and have that "smug" factor that diesel cars lack.

Your average American ham and egger still wants that quick off the line performance. Diesel engines are heavy and tend to have poor acceleration. All that torque doesn't translate into speed like it does with electric. It's better suited for towing. Personally, I think they should be targeting the SUV market more than cars, but there's still a long way to go.

Mazda's SKYACTIVE-D does look promising. However, they still seem to be in limited production. I don't even thing Mazda sells cars with it here in Canada. At least it's not mentioned anywhere on their website. I wouldn't mind the Mazda 6 with the "D".

 

[cabri]

When i worked at Cummins, they offered to employees a $5K rebate if a Dodge diesel truck was purchased.

Price tag difference with a gas model $10K

Heck of a price differential even if the engines had much better effeciency and longevity.

 

[996GT2]

With companies like Tesla pushing the boundaries of electric car tech, diesel hybrids will never really get their chance to shine. The next evolution from current gasoline-electric hybrids will likely be fully electric cars.

Diesel engines command a price premium over gas engines, and that's unlikely to change given that gasoline-electric hybrids are currently mass-produced and there aren't any diesel-electric hybrids on the market.

There's also the issue that diesel costs anywhere from $0.25 to $0.75 per gallon more than gasoline in many parts of the country.

 

[SithSolo1]

My question to Mazda:

When the **** are we going to get it. They've been hyping the Skyactiv-D since 2010. The lastest report I saw, months ago was that it wasn't meeting the "Zoom-Zoom" target for the US market and it may require the addition of a urea system to achieve it.


My parents both own diesel VWs and swear by diesel now. A Jetta and a Passat(would have been a Mazda but ya know...). Both have been great for fuel economy but the Jetta has been in the shop a lot lately, then again its a high mileage vehicle.

I'm leaning toward diesel for my next vehicle but I'm looking at the truck market.

For the longest time around here diesel was more than premium. Now its on par or slightly less than regular and here I am pumpin' premium for 40c more/gal.

 

[LTC8K6]

Diesel fuel is too expensive where I live, although recently it was as close as it's been in 20 years to the price of regular gas.

It is now back to it's usual higher price again, though.

So, for a brief period here, a diesel engine looked like a good idea.

 

[skyking]

The mazda hype really pissed me off too. I would have purchased one in the first year, which breaks my own rule of not being the launch guinea pig.

 

[Torn Mind]

More expensive is why they never really caught on. Both in the fuel costs and the upfront cost of the vehicle.

Even if the stuff is cleaner or the exhaust filtered, the stuff that comes out is still nasty, just invisible. And in countries with more lax standards and means of measuring? Public health WILL take a hit and the subtle impacts will occur.

 

[smackababy]

I think most of the reason is the mischaracterization of the realities of diesel and the American public cares little for facts or corrections to their original ideas. Ask anyone about diesel and all they can think about are big rigs and how they stink and have black smoke coming from their pipes! The horror!

I believe I read somewhere diesel is actually cheaper to manufacture than traditional gasoline and the price is inflated due to taxation. I remember when it was actually cheaper than gasoline. But, then again, I remember when gas was less than $1 a gallon.

 

[Torn Mind]

I think most of the reason is the mischaracterization of the realities of diesel and the American public cares little for facts or corrections to their original ideas. Ask anyone about diesel and all they can think about are big rigs and how they stink and have black smoke coming from their pipes! The horror!

I believe I read somewhere diesel is actually cheaper to manufacture than traditional gasoline and the price is inflated due to taxation. I remember when it was actually cheaper than gasoline. But, then again, I remember when gas was less than $1 a gallon.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b301ba72-2968-11e5-8613-e7aedbb7bdb7.html

Or perhaps the cars don't need to billow out big black smoke to cause havoc in London. Imagine being fined for leaving your diesel engine on unnecessarily. Well, that happens over there.
And our "enlightened" Euro brethren wants them all banned by 2050. Perhaps the Americans were right all along.

 

[NutBucket]

Simple, there aren't cars I want that offer it. If I was willing to spend the money I'd get a 328d wagon. I refuse to buy VAG product so that's out. Cruze diesel is a reasonable choice. But, as others have mentioned where are the offerings from Mazda, Subaru and Honda? All have fine diesel power trains in other markets and I'd love to have one.

Plus, in Socal there is no cost penalty for the fuel.

 

[Thump553]

I looked at diesels long and hard before I bought my last car. I drive a lot (500-900 miles per week) and a diesel would seemingly fit the bill perfectly. I ended up buying a Prius and am extremely happy with it at 170k miles. Very easy to do regular maintainence, only repair required was failed water pump for the ICE. Only real drawbacks are public perception (both a plus and a negative) and it's a tiring ride for a 12+ hour day.

Why I didn't go diesel:

-fuel price-roughly sixty cents per gallon higher here. Even if diesel vehicles were the same cost (which they definitely aren't) it would take a long time for diesel fuel to make economic sense.

-VW only major manufacturer, and mmmtech's comments about "wonky electronics" is spot on. I've owned two VWs from the last decade, never again for me.

-the whole urea thing. I've read that Mercedes are now designed so you HAVE to go the dealer to get the urea refilled.

-I know several relatives that have had American (Dodge and Chevy) diesel pickups that are excellent shade tree mechanics, but I would still rate each vehicle they had as a pure lemon. Way too many expensive trips to the shop.

-I'm old enough to remember the whole 1980's GM diesel car fiasco. They made Yugos look like quality productions.

When and if the Mazda system ever hits these shores I'll take a good look at it. I'd like diesel to work here, but every solution so far seems to the be either VW, a half-hearted attempt or a ripoff designed as economy.

 

[mmntech]

With companies like Tesla pushing the boundaries of electric car tech, diesel hybrids will never really get their chance to shine. The next evolution from current gasoline-electric hybrids will likely be fully electric cars.

Perhaps, though I think EV adoption will be slower than a lot of people expect it to be. There's a lot of drawbacks that still haven't been sorted out. Namely range, charge time, and cost.

Tesla's econobox, the Model 3, is still going to be $35,000. That's only on the condition that they build the "Gigafactory" and can source lithium for places other than China. Its 320km range still isn't that great compared to ICE powered vehicles. Even with the 480V "Supercharger", it still takes between 30-75min to charge compared to 5min for more traditional vehicles.

Over the next decade, you'll see automakers focusing on the same things they're focusing on now. Smaller turbocharged engines and power-split hybirds. I agree that diesel will continue to remain a niche market here. I also expect it to shrink in Europe as the EU starts clamping down on emissions.

 

[Instan00dles]

I was in the market for a used wagon 2 years ago and it pretty much came down to the VW golf wagon with the 2.5L or the TDI. I went with the 2.5L, in the end it should be cheaper and more reliable.

The used TDI's commanded a 5k+ price premium over the 2.5L ones I was looking it and they usually had 10-15k kms more. Right now I average 7.5L per 100kms on the highway and 11L per 100k 100% city. The TDI get much better mileage but once you add up the routine maintenance needs on the DSG transmission (had to get an auto or the gf wouldn’t drive the car) and the timing belt change you lose any money you might have saved on fuel. On just general maintenance with the mileage I drive it would take 10 years to break even, more mileage doesn’t shorten the time of return because you have to keep up with the above listed maintenance. On top of that the diesel engine is many times more complicated, more expensive to repair and requires more specialized tools to work on it. I usually do all my own maintenance but crunched my number using the cost of service from my local independent shop in case the car broke down while deployed, my girlfriend would have to take it to the mechanic in that case.

Diesels have their place; I have owned an older 96 Jetta turbo diesel and the first gen TDI. I really really wanted another diesel but the issues with blown injection pumps, turbo issues, iced up intercoolers that can result in a hydro locked engine (more common in humid climates) and fancy exhaust systems to deal with the emissions I decided for me at least the gasser was a better choice.

 

[ChronoReverse]

I drive a 2006 Jetta TDI and I like it but I would not get a new TDI (and not because of any issue with the 2006 TDI).

The modern diesel is quieter, cleaner and more powerful but it far more complex and in the end have too many emissions control devices bolted on that even if rarely need my attention, is still something I have to think about when other vehicles don't.

Hopefully the Model 3 will be available when I'm ready to get a new car and I can continue to use my reliable old TDI as the highway cruiser.

 

[MajinCry]

American diesels are much cleaner.

American diesel is folded a thousand times for best MPG.

 

[Mark R]

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b301ba72-2968-11e5-8613-e7aedbb7bdb7.html

Or perhaps the cars don't need to billow out big black smoke to cause havoc in London. Imagine being fined for leaving your diesel engine on unnecessarily. Well, that happens over there.
And our "enlightened" Euro brethren wants them all banned by 2050. Perhaps the Americans were right all along.

Big restrictions on diesel engine vehicles are likely coming soon in Europe.

London is planning a complete ban on diesel engine vehicles older than 2017 model year in 2020, because air quality is so bad. If you have such a vehicle, you will not be allowed to bring it into town, unless it has been retrofitted with a 2017 specification emissions system (only an option for commercial vehicles not passenger cars).

The other issue is that modern diesel emissions systems have serious reliability problems, and are extremely expensive. To the point, that if a car is more than about 2 years old, damage to the exhaust system could potentially mean that the car is totalled.

Particulate filters are notoriously unreliable, especially on larger diesel engines (> 1.6 litres) because the EGTs never get high enough to clear out the filter, or because the incorrect engine oil has been used, which poisons the catalytic action of the filter. The same applies with urban driving cycles; unless you do a 50+ mph highway run 2-3x per week, the filters may not regenerate correctly.

The other issue is NOx emissions. EPA regs for NOx are much stricter than in Europe, and are very difficult to meet - such that US model diesel engines may need urea selective catalytic reduction, which adds further complexity and maintenance.

Modern hybrids are also improving and are getting the point where they meet or exceed the fuel economy of diesel vehicles, with a considerably better emissions profile.

 

[Dr. Detroit]

Been strongly considering getting a Cruze Diesel in the next few months - Supposedly GM is bringing an all new 1.6L Diesel motor stateside for the 2017 model.

This new model will no require the addition of urea and improve fuel economy by over 10% of the previous CDT. Could see EPA highway numbers in the 49-51 range if true.

The technology/engineering is getting better to where we will see a lot more diesel cars.

 

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

Reasons why they're not more common:

1) higher up front cost for vehicles with Diesel engines
2) Diesel fuel is taxed more (they assume you have a heavy truck that is
damaging the roads more)
3) people remember the dirty, sooty exhaust they have seen from
Diesel trucks in the past

But far and away the most important reason is because, with fuel prices down under $4 or $5 a gallon, there really isn't a huge incentive for people to look for really fuel efficient vehicles. Most manufacturers who have Diesel vehicles for sale in Europe say that it just isn't worth all of the hassle of complying with the various American safety & environmental requirements, considering that they are not convinced that enough folks would buy the vehicles if they jumped through all of the hoops to bring it to market here.

My first car was a 1981 VW Rabbit Diesel, with manual transmission. I got 45 mpg on the highway, and it was very low maintenance. However, I look for simplicity in a car - things like crank windows, which our most recent car has. If someone could make an extremely low maintenance, simple Diesel vehicle, I'd be looking at it.

 

[MtnMan]

I've got a 2000 TDI with 230,000 on the clock. 57-59 on the highway, 44-46 around town. Diesel is about 15-20% higher here than regular, so it is still much more economical than a gas that gets mid 30's on the road and mid 20's in town.

I was in TN the other week, Diesel and regular were the same price in most stations, wish I knew why.

 

[LTC8K6]

Right now, diesel is cheaper than regular gas in my area. Haven't seen that in a very long time...I think it was in the 1980's.

 

[LTC8K6]

Diesel fuel is too expensive where I live, although recently it was as close as it's been in 20 years to the price of regular gas.

It is now back to it's usual higher price again, though.

So, for a brief period here, a diesel engine looked like a good idea.

Diesel is now 10 to 20 cents a gallon cheaper here.

Amazing...

Was 1.99 vs 1.89 for diesel

Lately some stations have put up 2.09 for gas, with diesel still at 1.89

Unheard of...

 

[Torn Mind]

Diesel is now 10 to 20 cents a gallon cheaper here.

Amazing...

Was 1.99 vs 1.89 for diesel

Lately some stations have put up 2.09 for gas, with diesel still at 1.89

Unheard of...

http://m.economictimes.com/news/international/business/diesel-in-glut-no-longer-profitable-to-produce-gasoline-demand-may-surge-65-above-average/articleshow/51743081.cms