Did you guys watch SiCKO? What did you think?

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shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
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<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Vic
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: shadow9d9
Here you go. Read his response. The whole "8 months later" thing is as wrong as can be.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/

He gives sources included the script from the Heston speech that occurred two days after the child shooting.

Get ready for the diversion or lack of a response folks!</end quote></div>

Umm... that's about the speech in Denver, near Columbine. We were talking about the one in Flint. That's where the "child shooting" took place.

And while we're on the subject of diversion or lack of response, what about the fact that you ignored my argument that Moore falsely characterized Heston as a racist?</end quote></div>

You didn't respond to my response about the locking of doors...

I am not familiar with the Heston-racist connection as it isn't a main point of the movie and unless someone pointed it out to me, I would not have even known. Let's assume that Moore hates Heston and showed him to be racist and he isn't. I won't even look it up. If that is the case, I believe Moore is wrong and should have kept this to himself...

I underline this because people tend to gloss over these things and then continue to claim "apologists" and other nonsense. If someone does wrong, and it is logical, there is nothing to debate.

However, it is not a major or even minor point of the movie. I file it under Moore's opinions that I don't care about. How does it relate to the idea that Americans are obsessed with guns or the point that Heston had a pro-gun rally 2 days after a child was killed?

With a Moore movie, you have to be able to separate the important , main issues, from his other personal ramblings. The point wasn't to demonize Heston. I believe(and could be wrong), but isn't Heston a little mentally not all there? Regardless, the point is that the country is so obsessed with guns that the Pro-gun rally wasn't even sensitive enough to cancel their event after they heard of the shooting. Sure, it would have cost them money... but sometimes ethics and morality is more important.

you may feel differently.. your opinion may be that the rally shouldn't be cancelled. The wonderful thing about life is that you could come away from movies with your OWN*gasp* conclusions! It never hurts to talk about things such as the disproportionally high gun killings in the U.S.... I don't see anyone ELSE talking about these issues....

For all the bashing of Gore and Moore for their movies.. when was the last time someone on the "right" ever made a movie bringing awareness to ANY issue!? EVER!?!?!?
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
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Originally posted by: Vic
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: shadow9d9
"If you're concerned about health care costs, try eating right and exercising. "

This doesn't help people with problems that have nothing to do with eating or exercising. Therefore, me eating healthy would NOT help with my concern with health care. Neither would my wife's problems.

Believe it or not I CANNOT RELY ON OTHER PEOPLE TO EAT HEALTHY so it will lower MY healthcare costs... your "research" is therefore worthless to me.</end quote></div>

Of course, it does. This is as obvious as it is self-evident. Insurance is a collective system of risk sharing. If overall costs go down, then so do individual costs. I already addressed the point that money that could go to people with issues such as your own instead goes to people whose medical problems are caused by unhealthy lifestyles. How did you miss that.
And my "research" was study conducted by the CDC and UCSF. Did you even read it?

I'll repeat it again- "Believe it or not I CANNOT RELY ON OTHER PEOPLE TO EAT HEALTHY so it will lower MY healthcare costs... IT IS therefore worthless to me."

Should I campaign fat people in the mall to eat healthier to lower the costs for myself!? Unless there is a practical application, the research does nothing for me.. it is research of the OBVIOUS.. of COURSE eating well will lower costs.. but WTF does that do for ME !? Insurances won't cover my pre-existing conditions!!!
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
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Originally posted by: Vic

Huh? If you think I'm part of any "culture of fear," then I can only be left with the assumption that you don't read any of my posts here. I do practically nothing else but speak against the culture of fear spread by the media, special interests, political parties, et al.

And you did miss my point. You must not spend any time in Canada. Their media pushes the culture of fear bit as well, pretty much just as bad as we have here. Hell, I recall being in BC in August 03 when the NE blackout hit, and the Canadian media did virutally nothing but sensationalize their point that the whole thing was America's fault. It was ridiculous.

And finally, you miss the clear point that editorials are generally confined to the OP-ED page. Moore tries to pretend that he's the front page. That's what documentaries are supposed to be, like PBS Frontline or the new (and wonderful if I may say so) Planet Earth series. What Moore does is more like a docutainment. Or like I said, an infomercial.

I really hate to break to the new commie internet left, but you guys are part of the culture of fear. Don't you even read your own posts? It's all, Bush is gonna kill us all, the economy is going to collapse any day now, the evil rich are trying to crush the poor, if we don't have socialized healthcare then we'll all die young, things are bad and getting worse, all is ashes, blah blah blah blah. Just because you're spouting different fear rhetoric from the "other side" doesn't mean that you're not still spouting fear. Because you are.

Did I say that you were part of anything? Of course I didn't. I don't know you. Please read my posts more carefully in the future. I did take note however that you claimed I must not be reading your postings in the same paragraph as you attribute things to me that I clearly never came even close to saying.

I would also not presume to speak on your travel habits. I used to live in the northeast and have visited Canada many times. Attempting to conflate anti Americanism in Canadian news broadcasting with the type of fear Moore was describing in his movies is intellectually dishonest. Furthermore what the hell does people on here fearmongering have to do with the validity of Moore's argument?

It's interesting to hear you opine on the acceptable formats for documentaries. You should let Hollywood know. Too bad Michael Moore has come out repeatedly... repeatedly and stated that his movies are opinion pieces, and in fact has personally made the exact same statement you just said, that his movies are OP-EDs. (I was just listening to an interview on NPR with him a day or two ago where he said that) So, don't try to supplant his public statements with your personal opinion of his motivations. If you are going to base your argument against someone on saying that he makes dishonest representations of people, you should probably avoid doing just that within the same thread. Attack Moore all you want but attack him on where he stands, not on where you wish he stood.

Please don't try and turn this into another pissing match. I don't really care if you dislike Michael Moore or not, but you need to get your facts straight first. There are a number of studies on American media that have shown that the greater amount of it we consume, the more fearful of the outside world we become. A large amount of this is dependant on the type of programming consumed, news in particular. If you could show some studies of Canadian media with similar effects or something like that I would be very willing to consider your point. So far I haven't seen that though, all I've gotten was your opinion sprinkled with factual mistakes and false attribution.

 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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I can't try and do what you 2 have already intentionally done. Wow. Windbag on. Gotta love apologists.

And Shadow, you still got your rallies wrong. The child murder was in Flint. Denver/Columbine was the school shooting. One would think that -- with your extensive Moore knowledge -- you would know this.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
Originally posted by: vi_edit
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: vi_edit
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper
Did Moore mention that we're spending gobs of money to provide health care for illegal aliens and their families? I bet he didn't.

Did Moore mention that one of the problems is the increasing percentage of Americans who live near or below the poverty line and that, thus, the nation's overall economic malaise is a big contributor to the problem (regardless of whether you have free market or socialized medicine)? I doubt it; I don't think he's that smart.

We can enact socialized medicine, but if the nation's economy falters, it won't do that much good because even socialized medicine is not free. I'm in favor of semi-socialized medicine, but at the same time I recognize that the ability to provide health care is dependent on the rest of the economy. If global labor arbitrage transforms the United States into a third world country, then even an ideal health care system would provide poor care and poor coverage.</end quote></div>

Is that better or worse than no care and no coverage? Do we want a society that only covers those who can afford it? Because that's what we have now and the numbers of those who cannot afford it just keep growing.</end quote></div>

What percent of children do you think are uninsured either by Medicaid, private or some combination of both? Without googling, just make a guess.</end quote></div>

I have no idea. I do remember seeing stats that indicate the number of uninsured people in this country at around 12-15% though so I'd imagine the number of children who are uninsured would be about the same.</end quote></div>

It's a touch under 12%. Throw in the upper crust that pay out of pocket and don't need insurance for their kids and the other group of people that *could* afford it but would rather have a new SUV instead for the premium and you are probably looking at single digit % of children that are actually left uncovered. Or around 90% of people who still are covered.

Now do the math on your insurance premiums that you currently pay. As a household I take in about $150k net. Our premiums only cost us around $1800 a year for my wife and I. That's only about 1.2% of our gross income, not counting what we pay into Medicaid/Medicare.

Given that your family owns a Lexus and you are considering buying a $40k sports car, I'd assume that you are doing pretty well too. What percentage are your premiums to your household income?

Now riddle me this - would you go to the voting booth and actively vote away 8% of your income ($12,000) in my case for worse service if it was only helping out a single digit percentage of kids (purposely leaving out adult %)? I couldn't. And just about anyone else out there wouldn't either.

And it's not like that 12% of kids have absolutely no help. My employer alone (a hospital system) wrote off over $50,000,000 in services for those without insurance. And that's just one hospital. There are thousands of other hospitals, clinics, and support groups that provide support to the uninsured that isn't included in many statistics. St. Judes and the many other affiliates of the Children's Network provide care to anyone child regardless of ability to pay. Those don't fall under insurance coverage either, but they are available.

I'm not saying the system is perfect. Far from it. Drug costs and the accountability of clinicians(Dr.s & otherwise) are in dire need of some reform. But why not address what isn't working for that small percent instead of punishing the overwhelming majority of the rest of us?

Seriously, if we are having troubles making Medicaid work well for the 40 million that are on it and the 40 some million that aren't, how can we ever expect a national system to support 300+ million?

Fix the leaks in the damn. Don't knock it down and try to build a new one.

That's exactly why hospitals across the country are closing down and/or declaring bankruptcy. Because people who can't afford healthcare use the emergency room as their general practitioner...after they've gotten to the point where they're likely in need of much greater care than if they had another alternative to begin with.

Healthcare costs me $3600/yr. Doesn't matter what my income is, there are people who work for my company who barely make $25k annually. That's almost 15% of their annual income.

You say fix the leaks but nobody is fixing anything. Healthcare costs continue to rise at a rate disproportionate to inflation and the number of uninsured just continue to grow.

And give me a break, show me one millionaire who has no insurance...that's such a crock I'm not even going to respond to it.

I don't think we need to become a socialist country but I do think we need to reverse the trend over the last 15 years that has seen the gap between those who have and those who have nothing deepen.

I think this country has become far too concerned with the pursuit of the almighty dollar and less concerned with who we have to step on to get it.
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,219
0
0
I honestly don't care about any of Vic's posts-his litmus test for 'truth' is as twisted as his little toe.

I've seen Sicko, and regardless of your invalid juxtopositions with coulter and limbrew, this film makes manifest the implosion of our economy to care for 'joe six pack' and our 'baby boomers'.

You seem to be an intelligent person Vic, why such idiocy?

Rogo

 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
Originally posted by: Vic
I have no intention of seeing it. Moore is a partisan hack and a lying dirtbag. One may as well go see a movie by Limbaugh or Coulter.

If you're concerned about health care costs, try eating right and exercising. The CDC says that only a mere 14.6% of Americans meet rudimentary dietary and health benchmarks, and that Americans could save more than $1000 per year EACH if more of us took better care of ourselves.

Yet almost 12% of us are uninsured. I fail to see what one has to do with the other.

Eating right doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for you when you're riding your bike to work and some idiot mows you down in the bike lane does it?
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Vic
I have no intention of seeing it. Moore is a partisan hack and a lying dirtbag. One may as well go see a movie by Limbaugh or Coulter.

If you're concerned about health care costs, try eating right and exercising. The CDC says that only a mere 14.6% of Americans meet rudimentary dietary and health benchmarks, and that Americans could save more than $1000 per year EACH if more of us took better care of ourselves.</end quote></div>

Yet almost 12% of us are uninsured. I fail to see what one has to do with the other.

Eating right doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for you when you're riding your bike to work and some idiot mows you down in the bike lane does it?</end quote></div>

I think he is trying to say if more people took care of their health better the system wouldn't be as burdened allowing people who have accidents like the guy with the bike to receive healthcare at a lower cost and health insurance in general would be less for everyone allowing more companies to offer it who now don't, and those that do provide better plans.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
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Most canadians do not have any idea how lucky they are for the healthcare system they have. The majoriy are pulled by newspaper editorials that say "our healthcare system is messed up fix it". The majority don't truly understand or have experienced the differences.



Put it 1 way


A immigrant's health care was cut, so his treatment was stopped. This made front page news for a week. In the states no one would turn there head.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Vic
I can't try and do what you 2 have already intentionally done. Wow. Windbag on. Gotta love apologists.

And Shadow, you still got your rallies wrong. The child murder was in Flint. Denver/Columbine was the school shooting. One would think that -- with your extensive Moore knowledge -- you would know this.</end quote></div>

1. I have no extensive knowledge of moore. I saw the movie once many years ago and did a google search earlier and his site had the most info. Now that we have that stupidity out of the way:

So, Heston went to the Columbine shooting area instead of the child murder? Ok, so? It is even worse in that case! What is your point?

Here is a quote from the rally VIc:

"Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver, sent me a message: "Don't come here. We don't want you here, "

I say to the Mayor, I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when I was 18 years old. Since then, I've run small errands for my country from Nigeria to Vietnam. I know many of you could say the same. But the Mayor said, "Don't come."

I'm sorry for that. I'm sorry for the newspaper ads saying the same thing. "Don't come here." This is our country. As Americans we are free to travel wherever we wish in our broad land. "

Heston is an ass. An even bigger one than I thought, thanks to you pointing it out to me. So he crapped over a bigger group of dead people from gun violence... Good job vic, you helped prove he was even more insensitive than I thought...

And of course, you (who ASSumed, like you are famous for, that I am a moore apologist) don't give any notice to the fact that I said what Moore did with the racist comments was wrong.. I even underlined it to make it easier for you.. you are just so full of yourself that you can't ever admit when you are wrong. I did, and i underlined it. I won't even go into the implications of people with big egos and inability to admit mistakes.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
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Originally posted by: 1prophet
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote><div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Vic
I have no intention of seeing it. Moore is a partisan hack and a lying dirtbag. One may as well go see a movie by Limbaugh or Coulter.

If you're concerned about health care costs, try eating right and exercising. The CDC says that only a mere 14.6% of Americans meet rudimentary dietary and health benchmarks, and that Americans could save more than $1000 per year EACH if more of us took better care of ourselves.</end quote></div>

Yet almost 12% of us are uninsured. I fail to see what one has to do with the other.

Eating right doesn't do a whole hell of a lot for you when you're riding your bike to work and some idiot mows you down in the bike lane does it?</end quote></div></end quote></div>

I think he is trying to say if more people took care of their health better the system wouldn't be as burdened allowing people who have accidents like the guy with the bike to receive healthcare at a lower cost and health insurance in general would be less for everyone allowing more companies to offer it who now don't, and those that do provide better plans.

Surely I couldn't have meant that!! ;)


And FFS, Shadow, the rally in question was the one in fscking Flint, MI, not Denver. Quit avoiding the issue.
 

shadow9d9

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2004
8,132
2
0

And FFS, Shadow, the rally in question was the one in fscking Flint, MI, not Denver. Quit avoiding the issue.</end quote></div>

No admitting that your ASSumption was wrong eh? Typical BS. That's why the internet is perfect for you.. you could troll, pretend that you are always right, and ignore mistakes you make without having to apologize for wrongful accusations... I would normally be pissed, but it a sure sign of makor rl issues.


""Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver, sent me a message: "Don't come here. We don't want you here, "

I say to the Mayor, I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when I was 18 years old. Since then, I've run small errands for my country from Nigeria to Vietnam. I know many of you could say the same. But the Mayor said, "Don't come." "

Poor poor heston... Moore hurt his fweelings! Poor guy.. he is a compassionate caring individual who isn't infatuated with guns... it has absolutely nothing to do with the obsession with guns in the U.S.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
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Originally posted by: RichardE
Most canadians do not have any idea how lucky they are for the healthcare system they have. The majoriy are pulled by newspaper editorials that say "our healthcare system is messed up fix it". The majority don't truly understand or have experienced the differences.



Put it 1 way


A immigrant's health care was cut, so his treatment was stopped. This made front page news for a week. In the states no one would turn there head.

It's illegal in the US to deny health care to anyone based on their inability to pay. I know many people unfortunate enough to work (or have worked) in medical billing. Of those billings that do go into default, only a small percentage are eventually paid for the patient. The majority of the costs are either absorbed by the pool of paying patients, picked up by Medicare or state plans, or charged off.
It's a little known fact that we already have universal health care in America, and that the majority of Americans (and certainly all of adult age who post here) are already paying for it. That's why your premiums are so high. Hello? Do you really think a tongue depressor costs $20 bucks?

There are so many problems with our health care system that to claim that all we need to do is just put the government in charge of all it without changing anything else is simply to knee-jerk in the most ignorant and reactionary extreme.



And Rogo... (this isn't to you RichardE, I'm not going to waste an extra post on this) everyone here already thinks you're an idiot. Haven't you been told that often enough? I mean, you out of nowhere called RossMAN an "arrogant fucking prick" (and I do quote) in the appreciation thread for him in OT, and then kept trolling that point after everyone else told you off for it. Get. A. Clue. I'm hoping you get banned for that, Ross is such a great and helpful guy and that was so uncalled for.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
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Originally posted by: shadow9d9

And FFS, Shadow, the rally in question was the one in fscking Flint, MI, not Denver. Quit avoiding the issue.</end quote></div>

No admitting that your ASSumption was wrong eh? Typical BS. That's why the internet is perfect for you.. you could troll, pretend that you are always right, and ignore mistakes you make without having to apologize for wrongful accusations... I would normally be pissed, but it a sure sign of makor rl issues.


""Wellington Webb, the mayor of Denver, sent me a message: "Don't come here. We don't want you here, "

I say to the Mayor, I volunteered for the war they wanted me to attend when I was 18 years old. Since then, I've run small errands for my country from Nigeria to Vietnam. I know many of you could say the same. But the Mayor said, "Don't come." "

Poor poor heston... Moore hurt his fweelings! Poor guy.. he is a compassionate caring individual who isn't infatuated with guns... it has absolutely nothing to do with the obsession with guns in the U.S.

OMFG no one is this stupid. Do you NOT read the other posts in the thread before you post?

Originally posted by: NPR article
The movie implies that Heston attended a rally in Flint just after a 6-year-old girl had been shot and killed.

In the film, Moore appears at Heston's house, snags an interview and asks the seemingly frail actor whether he felt insensitive because the community had "just" suffered the loss of the child. Eventually, Heston walks out on the interview.

"This is her. Please don't leave, Mr. Heston, please. Take a look at her. This is the girl," Moore said.

In fact, Heston attended a rally in Flint eight months after the child was killed. Moore is unapologetic.

For the last time, NOT the rally in Denver after Columbine.

Oh wait, that's right... I forgot... NPR is a Moore hate site. Sorry... my bad... :roll:
 

Rogodin2

Banned
Jul 2, 2003
3,219
0
0
And Rogo... (this isn't to you RichardE, I'm not going to waste an extra post on this) everyone here already thinks you're an idiot. Haven't you been told that often enough? I mean, you out of nowhere called RossMAN an "arrogant fucking prick" (and I do quote) in the appreciation thread for him in OT, and then kept trolling that point after everyone else told you off for it. Get. A. Clue. I'm hoping you get banned for that, Ross is such a great and helpful guy and that was so uncalled for

You didn't respond to my post-you replied with a logical fallacy.

I've read your posts and realized that it's not worth posting tenable questions in your threads.

Godspeed Lad.

Rogo
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: Rogodin2
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>And Rogo... (this isn't to you RichardE, I'm not going to waste an extra post on this) everyone here already thinks you're an idiot. Haven't you been told that often enough? I mean, you out of nowhere called RossMAN an "arrogant fucking prick" (and I do quote) in the appreciation thread for him in OT, and then kept trolling that point after everyone else told you off for it. Get. A. Clue. I'm hoping you get banned for that, Ross is such a great and helpful guy and that was so uncalled for</end quote></div>

You didn't respond to my post-you replied with a logical fallacy.

I've read your posts and realized that it's not worth posting tenable questions in your threads.

Godspeed Lad.

Rogo

How can I not respond (to a non-existent post), yet reply with a logic fallacy at the same time? And I rarely start any threads here, none recently, and not the RossMAN thread (dartworth started that).
While we're discussing health care issues, have you considered getting a CAT scan or MRI for your head? It might be a good idea.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Vic

It's illegal in the US to deny health care to anyone based on their inability to pay. I know many people unfortunate enough to work (or have worked) in medical billing. Of those billings that do go into default, only a small percentage are eventually paid for the patient. The majority of the costs are either absorbed by the pool of paying patients, picked up by Medicare or state plans, or charged off.
It's a little known fact that we already have universal health care in America, and that the majority of Americans (and certainly all of adult age who post here) are already paying for it. That's why your premiums are so high. Hello? Do you really think a tongue depressor costs $20 bucks?

Universal emergency room care does not equal universal health care. Nor does it even come close.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
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Originally posted by: eskimospy
Universal emergency room care does not equal universal health care. Nor does it even come close.

Oh yeah, and just wait til you have to pay for that. The health care industry cannot wait. Guaranteed funding. Should UHC go through, I'll be changing careers for sure. I'm hoping the corrupt politicos at least get us out of Iraq first, but I imagine they'll have no problem making us pay for both, probably with more rhetoric about shrinking incomes in America while they bump in another payroll tax.

Anyway, calling it "Universal emergency room care" just goes to show how clueless and spoon-fed partisan you are. They go to the urgency care clinic, which basically amounts to a trip to the doctor (or more likely, just a PA) but not their regular doctor. I can understand your confusion though, as larger hospitals will run emergency and urgent out of the same waiting room, with the front nurse deciding who goes where.
And what exactly are you trying to do with your UHC agenda if you're trying to cut out the urgency care clinics... deny the illegals access to health care? ;)

And is no one going to address my argument about the unhealthy lifestyles/habits of Americans and that effect on the cost of health care (and life expectancy) in America, beyond just obtuse responses or Shadow's usual (and admittedly peculiar) hatred of all things fitness? I bet if I started a thread on obesity in America, I'd get a whole flood of responses from the same usual suspects here, all with nothing but nasty to say. But link it with the cost of health care and suddenly it's a taboo subject? Hmmm....
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
And i laugh pretty hard at calling out the tort as the main issue.

If doctors didnt routinely screw up peoples lives, they wouldnt get sued.

My best friend just had brain surgery, hes 26.

He had bad headaches and went to the doctor, they said a deformity he had from birth, a large blood vessel, was swelling and causing the headaches. They said he would need surgery immediatly to have it removed because it could rupture, killing him. They also said that it would alleviate his headaches (which by the time of the surgery had been ongoing for 3 months).

After 5 small surgeries and then the actual brain surgery, he still has the headaches, only substantially worse, can no longer see color, and has permanent double vision. He is planning to sue the hell out of the hospital.

That is a perfect example of why the insurance is so damn expensive. They didnt even fix his original problem, they ruined his vision for life, and they had no problem charging him over half a mil for the trouble.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,586
50,771
136
Originally posted by: Vic
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: eskimospy
Universal emergency room care does not equal universal health care. Nor does it even come close.</end quote></div>

Oh yeah, and just wait til you have to pay for that. The health care industry cannot wait. Guaranteed funding. Should UHC go through, I'll be changing careers for sure. I'm hoping the corrupt politicos at least get us out of Iraq first, but I imagine they'll have no problem making us pay for both, probably with more rhetoric about shrinking incomes in America while they bump in another payroll tax.

Anyway, calling it "Universal emergency room care" just goes to show how clueless and spoon-fed partisan you are. They go to the urgency care clinic, which basically amounts to a trip to the doctor (or more likely, just a PA) but not their regular doctor. I can understand your confusion though, as larger hospitals will run emergency and urgent out of the same waiting room, with the front nurse deciding who goes where.
And what exactly are you trying to do with your UHC agenda if you're trying to cut out the urgency care clinics... deny the illegals access to health care? ;)

And is no one going to address my argument about the unhealthy lifestyles/habits of Americans and that effect on the cost of health care (and life expectancy) in America, beyond just obtuse responses or Shadow's usual (and admittedly peculiar) hatred of all things fitness? I bet if I started a thread on obesity in America, I'd get a whole flood of responses from the same usual suspects here, all with nothing but nasty to say. But link it with the cost of health care and suddenly it's a taboo subject? Hmmm....

Vic, you are acting really really dumb in this thread. Your assertion that America has some sort of universal health care is laughable... and the thing is I know that you know better. Why you're trying to make that argument is incomprehensible to me other then you are just unwilling to admit you're wrong.

Of course obesity has negative health effects. Does obesity cause a large enough effect to account for anywhere close to the massive disparity in health care spending and outcomes? Of course not. I'm glad to know you are so well versed on everyone's approaches to fitness in America.

It appears yet again that arguing with you is pointless as you are nearly impossible to nail down to any single argument. You have been getting your ass kicked all over this thread for several pages now, so you might want to do everyone a favor and stop embarassing yourself. Regardless of what you do, I for one won't be participating in this anymore.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,534
911
126
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Universal emergency room care does not equal universal health care. Nor does it even come close.

Oh yeah, and just wait til you have to pay for that. The health care industry cannot wait. Guaranteed funding. Should UHC go through, I'll be changing careers for sure. I'm hoping the corrupt politicos at least get us out of Iraq first, but I imagine they'll have no problem making us pay for both, probably with more rhetoric about shrinking incomes in America while they bump in another payroll tax.

Anyway, calling it "Universal emergency room care" just goes to show how clueless and spoon-fed partisan you are. They go to the urgency care clinic, which basically amounts to a trip to the doctor (or more likely, just a PA) but not their regular doctor. I can understand your confusion though, as larger hospitals will run emergency and urgent out of the same waiting room, with the front nurse deciding who goes where.
And what exactly are you trying to do with your UHC agenda if you're trying to cut out the urgency care clinics... deny the illegals access to health care? ;)

And is no one going to address my argument about the unhealthy lifestyles/habits of Americans and that effect on the cost of health care (and life expectancy) in America, beyond just obtuse responses or Shadow's usual (and admittedly peculiar) hatred of all things fitness? I bet if I started a thread on obesity in America, I'd get a whole flood of responses from the same usual suspects here, all with nothing but nasty to say. But link it with the cost of health care and suddenly it's a taboo subject? Hmmm....

Do you have any actual numbers or studies to back that up? People say that obesity is driving up the cost of health care but how much exactly? I'd say AIDS and cancer are far more costly to treat than mild obesity. How about smokers?

I agree that Americans need to change their unhealthy lifestyles but they need to do it for themselves, not to lower the cost of health care. Asking someone to start a fitness regime in order to lower the health care costs in the nation is like asking someone to buy a couple bucks of penny stocks in order to pump up the stock market.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Can I expect this level of stupidity to continue indefinitely here on ATPN?

I post about the Flint NRA rally, shadow9d9 goes on and on obtusely about the one in Denver, with heaping after heaping of personal attacks.

I post a link to a CDC/UCSF study linking diet and fitness to health care costs, and I immediately get comments calling it "Good old nonsense!," and then a mere page later I am asked for "actual numbers or studies to back that up." Hello? That's how this started!

It's not that I am impossible to pin down to any single argument, it's that you revert to straw man as soon as your beloved faith and/or one of its cult of personality figures is so much as questioned. You're impossible to discuss rationally with. Because you are deluded, not rational.
Your first clue, eskimopie, is that you claim I'm embarassing myself while I'm arguing with someone so deludely stupid that he called NPR a "Moore hate site."
Your second clue should be Moore's own comments:
"I mean, it really is disgusting when a guy in a ball cap with a high school education is the one asking the tough questions," Moore said. "Criticize me? No. Somebody really should show up and say, 'Thanks.'"
That's should be a "Here's your sign" moment if I ever saw one, and Moore made that comment himself! But hey, it's true, ignorance + delusions of grandeur = knee-jerk authoritarianism.

Seriously, if I'm embarrassing myself, it's only because I keep arguing with obvious tards on the internet. I should just follow Hayabusa Rider's wise example of pwning the living hell out of you in one single post and then just leaving you to whine and cry in pathetic torment at the evil cruelness of reality and your denial of it.

Oh, but that's right... "I'm not a smart person." Because you say so. :roll:
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Americans would have us taxed at a 90% rate if we had healthcare here. Just like how disability is now handed out to people just for being fat.

Sorry people this is a country of pure gluttony, it would NOT work here.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: Vic
<div class="FTQUOTE"><begin quote>Originally posted by: eskimospy
Universal emergency room care does not equal universal health care. Nor does it even come close.</end quote></div>

Oh yeah, and just wait til you have to pay for that. The health care industry cannot wait. Guaranteed funding. Should UHC go through, I'll be changing careers for sure. I'm hoping the corrupt politicos at least get us out of Iraq first, but I imagine they'll have no problem making us pay for both, probably with more rhetoric about shrinking incomes in America while they bump in another payroll tax.

Anyway, calling it "Universal emergency room care" just goes to show how clueless and spoon-fed partisan you are. They go to the urgency care clinic, which basically amounts to a trip to the doctor (or more likely, just a PA) but not their regular doctor. I can understand your confusion though, as larger hospitals will run emergency and urgent out of the same waiting room, with the front nurse deciding who goes where.
And what exactly are you trying to do with your UHC agenda if you're trying to cut out the urgency care clinics... deny the illegals access to health care? ;)

And is no one going to address my argument about the unhealthy lifestyles/habits of Americans and that effect on the cost of health care (and life expectancy) in America, beyond just obtuse responses or Shadow's usual (and admittedly peculiar) hatred of all things fitness? I bet if I started a thread on obesity in America, I'd get a whole flood of responses from the same usual suspects here, all with nothing but nasty to say. But link it with the cost of health care and suddenly it's a taboo subject? Hmmm....</end quote></div>

Do you have any actual numbers or studies to back that up? People say that obesity is driving up the cost of health care but how much exactly? I'd say AIDS and cancer are far more costly to treat than mild obesity. How about smokers?

I agree that Americans need to change their unhealthy lifestyles but they need to do it for themselves, not to lower the cost of health care. Asking someone to start a fitness regime in order to lower the health care costs in the nation is like asking someone to buy a couple bucks of penny stocks in order to pump up the stock market.

Actually many doctors agree that obesity is a new stealth epidemic.

This is supposed to be 1st generation in decades that drops in life expentancy over the previous generation.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,333
136
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Americans would have us taxed at a 90% rate if we had healthcare here. Just like how disability is now handed out to people just for being fat.

Sorry people this is a country of pure gluttony, it would NOT work here.

I keep saying exactly this. UHC is a great idea, and I would otherwise support it, except that it will only be abused (among other problems inherent to American politics, like corruption, nanny-state regulation, etc.).

Consider this example. Up until about 15 years ago, America had a real serious problem with its state and local parks. Litter, vandalism, violence, loud drunken parties, etc. They were downright dangerous, and the public was frequently scared to use their own public lands. Anyone old enough to remember the 70s and 80s should remember this. Then some genius came up with the idea of implementing a small day use fee (typically $3 per carload). Public response: there was shock, there was outrage, there was horror. Damnit, I already pay for the parks/trails with my tax dollars, how can the government get away with this, etc.
No one complains anymore. Why? Because that small fee fixed practically every problem. By no longer being free, people no longer abuse our parks and trails (or don't abuse nearly as much as they used to).

The same analogy can be used for health care (in fact, Clinton-era Democrats were hugely proud of the success of the park fees). Yes, we have a safety net. And yes, it is a painful one. On purpose. Because financially painful as it is, people still abuse our health care system. Remove too much pain from it, and Americans will become even fatter, nastier, more entitled, and more gluttonous than they are now already. Count on it. And the unintended consequence (and there always is one) will be that we will be poorer, sicker, and die earlier than ever.
We need to solve our other health issues first.