Did the French sabotage the EU Constitution deliberately?

[AndrewR]

Very interesting BBC story regarding the recent failed negotiations over the proposed EU Constitution. Begs the question: Does Chirac get along with ANYONE? I guess that's a bit unfair since they do apparently want a two-speed Europe, complete with its own defense structure that doesn't involve NATO or the United States. But blaming the Poles and Spanish and letting them be punished as a result (or possibly so)? Salauds!

Who Shot the Brussels summit?

 

[nCred]

Poland is going to be a pain in the a$$ to have in the EU.

 

[freegeeks]

Poland and Spain better tone it down.

GB, France, Germany and the Benelux countries have made it clear that they are the biggest contributors to the EU budget and that Spain and Poland are on the receiving end.

IMO it's only fair that larger countries with larger populations have more voting power then the smaller countries. It's only Spain and Poland that want almost equal votes.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: freegeeks
Poland and Spain better tone it down.

GB, France, Germany and the Benelux countries have made it clear that they are the biggest contributors to the EU budget and that Spain and Poland are on the receiving end.

IMO it's only fair that larger countries with larger populations have more voting power then the smaller countries. It's only Spain and Poland that want almost equal votes.

Sad part is that Spain kind of got a pitty vote to be allowed in anyways.

As far as the article is concerned; does Chirac get along with anyone? He sure is trying to, according to the article anyways. In fact, he is, along with other members, trying for a better integration of nations.

The voting power is another big issue, I guess anyways. I don't see the big surprise that Germany gets the most votes and France, Italy and the UK receive the same amount. They have the largest populations(with the exception of Spain at around 40 million, the rest of the nations are mostly 10 million or less with a couple around 15 million), they also have the highest GDPs.(all 4 are trillion dollar economies)

 

[Strk]

Ok, I just checked and the only nation besides the 5 mentioned above the only other nation with over 10 million is Greece, although that will increase with Poland and Romania.

 

[freegeeks]

I don't understand why Spain and Poland are whining while even much smaller countries like Belgium, Luxembourg and The Netherlands have even less votes because of their population. You don't hear Luxembourg whining about their votes.

The fact is that Spain and Poland with equal voting power like France, GB, Germany can block almost all decisions.

Totally undemocratic IMO

 

[nCred]

Originally posted by: Strk
Ok, I just checked and the only nation besides the 5 mentioned above the only other nation with over 10 million is Greece, although that will increase with Poland and Romania.

The Netherlands has a population of 15 million people, and I think Belgium and Portugal has 10 million.

 

[RabidMongoose]

They'll have to work out some sort of compromise. France/Germany should know that you reap what you sow. Why would Poland or Spain just voluntarily give up power?

Poland agreed to certain rights when they agreed to join. Now certain powers are trying to take those rights away. They have every right to object.

 

[charrison]

one house that has representative determined by population, then another house with an equal number representatives per country.

It seems simple.

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: freegeeks
I don't understand why Spain and Poland are whining while even much smaller countries like Belgium, Luxembourg and The Netherlands have even less votes because of their population. You don't hear Luxembourg whining about their votes.

The fact is that Spain and Poland with equal voting power like France, GB, Germany can block almost all decisions.

Totally undemocratic IMO

That's like saying France shouldn't have any veto power in the UN SC, India should be on the UN, etc. I'd think that you have to take into account governments along with population. Well of course different actually since nothing can be the same, but you know what I mean (hopefully).

Anyways, Poland was slapped around a bit in the past, it's good that they're standing up for themselves this time. I'd think that Belgium, Luxembourg, etc. are dependent on France and Germany? As in they agree with them on most points? They seem that way but I don't know much about them.

Why is it so wrong for them to keep the power that was given to them willingly? I don't understand why everyone is whining when they all agree to it.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: nCred

Originally posted by: Strk
Ok, I just checked and the only nation besides the 5 mentioned above the only other nation with over 10 million is Greece, although that will increase with Poland and Romania.

The Netherlands has a population of 15 million people, and I think Belgium and Portugal has 10 million.

oops, I forgot about the Netherland. And yeah, Belgium and Portugal are right around 10 million, but that still isn't much of a population compared to the big nations.

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
They'll have to work out some sort of compromise. France/Germany should know that you reap what you sow. Why would Poland or Spain just voluntarily give up power?

Poland agreed to certain rights when they agreed to join. Now certain powers are trying to take those rights away. They have every right to object.

First off, Poland is not a member yet. Poland is also a very poor country and it also hasn't been a democracy for very long and both of those are requirements to be accepted. So Poland should be quite happy that it is being allowed in and Spain was in a similar condition when it was accepted.

As far as those countries giving up rights, well, they aren't really giving up rights for the worse. The EU will add standard of living requirements and other humanitarian requirements. As far as the voting is concerned, it is quite balanced and if anything at all, the voting favors the smaller states. Currently, the Council of Ministers and the European Commission are where most things occur.(the parliament doesn't do much last I read about it) In the CoM, the maximum amount of votes a country can receive is 10 and the minimum is 2. Voting also requires a certain number of nations in addition to the amount of votes. So, if anything, the smaller nations have more power on what goes on in the EU, which should actually be causing many more problems with the larger nations.

Originally posted by: freegeeks
I don't understand why Spain and Poland are whining while even much smaller countries like Belgium, Luxembourg and The Netherlands have even less votes because of their population. You don't hear Luxembourg whining about their votes.

Actually, after typing what I did above, do you really think these small nations are getting the short end? Luxembourg with it's 400,000 or so population receiving 2 votes and Germany with 82 million and the highest GDP receiving 10, as well as every other nation receiving at least 3. Also, for the record, Spain receives 8 qualifying votes in the CoM with around 40 million people.

 

[freegeeks]

Actually, after typing what I did above, do you really think these small nations are getting the short end? Luxembourg with it's 400,000 or so population receiving 2 votes and Germany with 82 million and the highest GDP receiving 10, as well as every other nation receiving at least 3. Also, for the record, Spain receives 8 qualifying votes in the CoM with around 40 million people.

Germany, France and GB have 29 votes
Spain and Poland have 27 votes

the debate is about these votes

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: freegeeks

Actually, after typing what I did above, do you really think these small nations are getting the short end? Luxembourg with it's 400,000 or so population receiving 2 votes and Germany with 82 million and the highest GDP receiving 10, as well as every other nation receiving at least 3. Also, for the record, Spain receives 8 qualifying votes in the CoM with around 40 million people.

Germany, France and GB have 29 votes
Spain and Poland have 27 votes

the debate is about these votes

Actually, the numbers I said are what they are currently using.(Germany, France, Italy and the UK all have 10) The numbers you were reading will be the amount after the next group of nations are added.(Poland etc)

These are the numbers that will be in effect if they stay as planned. Personally, I think the numbers are still quite fair considering the populations.

 

[freegeeks]

the Nice agreement goes into effect when the new countries join the EU. That is in the next year.
They can't use the old voting system anymore because of the new countries

So next year they will be using my numbers (as agreed in Nice) and that is the debate right now

so when Poland officially joins they will have 27 votes. Spain will also have 27 votes.

 

[GrGr]

Is the US electoral votes a good comparison (superficially of course)? Looks to me like Poland and Spain wants more "electoral" votes than the size of their countries (states) mandate.

 

[lozina]

Anyone have a link that shows these votes each country would get in the current proposal ?

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: GrGr
Is the US electoral votes a good comparison (superficially of course)? Looks to me like Poland and Spain wants more "electoral" votes than the size of their countries (states) mandate.

I suppose it kind of is, in a way anyways.

Either way, once the Nice agreement goes into affect the numbers freegeeks brought up will be what are used. I still don't get why Poland and Spain want more power. Spain is currently the largest taker(as in they take a lot more cash than they give, as seen here) Once the eastern bloc is added, there will just be another big increase of nations that will receive more funds than they give. Maybe I'm just greedy, but you can only take so much from the needy child.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: GrGr
Is the US electoral votes a good comparison (superficially of course)? Looks to me like Poland and Spain wants more "electoral" votes than the size of their countries (states) mandate.

I suppose it kind of is, in a way anyways.

Either way, once the Nice agreement goes into affect the numbers freegeeks brought up will be what are used. I still don't get why Poland and Spain want more power. Spain is currently the largest taker(as in they take a lot more cash than they give, as seen here) Once the eastern bloc is added, there will just be another big increase of nations that will receive more funds than they give. Maybe I'm just greedy, but you can only take so much from the needy child.

voila

I agree with you completely - Poland and Spain will get a lot of the EU money paid for by Germany and France

it just doesn't make sense that they want equal voting power

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: lozina
Anyone have a link that shows these votes each country would get in the current proposal ?

look to the link from strk (BBC) - on the bottom you have a nice chart with all the countries and their votes in the current proposal (Nice agreement)

link added

 

[boran]

ell, they'll have to agree at one time, and i see you ppls quoting the cash flow from one country to another, well, that's not a really big issue, europe spends a lot on countries, mainly infrastructure and regulations, that way the countries become by themselves economically stronger, and end up giving cash into the union, for the next bach of "poor" countries.

this was also one of the reasons for the US marshall plan after WW2, to jumpstart the EU economy so we could become good clients again.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: freegeeks
Poland and Spain better tone it down.

GB, France, Germany and the Benelux countries have made it clear that they are the biggest contributors to the EU budget and that Spain and Poland are on the receiving end.

IMO it's only fair that larger countries with larger populations have more voting power then the smaller countries. It's only Spain and Poland that want almost equal votes.

You ignored the entire article, freegeeks. Poland and Spain were apparently willing to negotiate while France adamantly refused to do so in order to push their two speed Europe agenda. Regardless, Miller was absolutely incapable of doing otherwise (insisting on Nice) because of domestic politics.

Hence, the future failure of the EU.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: freegeeks
Poland and Spain better tone it down.

GB, France, Germany and the Benelux countries have made it clear that they are the biggest contributors to the EU budget and that Spain and Poland are on the receiving end.

IMO it's only fair that larger countries with larger populations have more voting power then the smaller countries. It's only Spain and Poland that want almost equal votes.

You ignored the entire article, freegeeks. Poland and Spain were apparently willing to negotiate while France adamantly refused to do so in order to push their two speed Europe agenda. Regardless, Miller was absolutely incapable of doing otherwise (insisting on Nice) because of domestic politics.

Hence, the future failure of the EU.

Andrew: I did not read the article, but Poland was not willing to negotiate anything.
The two speed thing is not something they want to push. It was a possibility roaming around in the heads at different times. Now it was brought up again because of the failure to work things out. But it os not an accepted plan and not really something that is wanted but a possibility if everything else fails.


read the article now: This contradicts everything I read so far - I wonder how they get such details - not sure if I shall believe it hmmmm?!?!

 

[Genesys]

Did the French sabotage the EU Constitution deliberately?

probably. it wouldnt surprise me if they did though.

 

[freegeeks]

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: freegeeks
Poland and Spain better tone it down.

GB, France, Germany and the Benelux countries have made it clear that they are the biggest contributors to the EU budget and that Spain and Poland are on the receiving end.

IMO it's only fair that larger countries with larger populations have more voting power then the smaller countries. It's only Spain and Poland that want almost equal votes.

You ignored the entire article, freegeeks. Poland and Spain were apparently willing to negotiate while France adamantly refused to do so in order to push their two speed Europe agenda. Regardless, Miller was absolutely incapable of doing otherwise (insisting on Nice) because of domestic politics.

Hence, the future failure of the EU.

not true

this rumour was started by Berlusconi, one of many f*ck ups during the 6 month Italian presidency of the EU

Romano Prodi made it clear that it was Spain and Poland who didn't want to move an inch

 

[Siddhartha]

If Poland and Spain are going to take a political, social, and or an economic hit by being in the EU the should opt not to join.