There's a legal phrase, 'statement against interest', which means that statements made against the speaker's interest are more credible.
If George Bush came out and said he appointed Gonzales because he thinks he's the best person, it may or may not be true. If he says he admits he appointed him primarily to ensure that the Justice Department would not challenge his policies, it's nearly certainly the truth, because it's a 'statement against interest'.
To balance the examples, if Bill Clinton denies sexual relations with that woman, maybe. If he admits them, it's probably true.
So your cutesie little game of trying to say the left can't hold Rumsfeld accountable for any admissions of mistakes because he's not been honest on other issues, is fallacious.
I never said what you are implying I said. My point was that PJ doens't defend all government incompetence - he attacks the democrats', and defends the Republicans'.
I agree with you that the Democrats have fallen short in holding Bush accountable for his wrongs.
FU Is all I'm gonna say. I had 5 friends die on Spet. 11 2001 in WTC2 and Im an engineer. Just FU! I don't comment on here much but read here every day and boy, you don't know crap!
OH, and BTW, I know you're a RP supporteer too and you know what? F him too because I know he's also a denier.........
Mods, I know I dropped a lot of "F bombs" above I know that's a "no-no", you wanna ban me for this, I have no problem but no SOB uninformed bastage is goona help increase the FUD in this manner and not have me respond.........
Whoozyerdaddy
Lifer
- Jun 27, 2005
- 19,251
- 1
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For me Sept 10th 2001 started out in Indianapolis. I was packing up to leave the CEDIA conference. When my party and I got to the airport we learned that there had been some really bad thunder storms all over the mid-west and that our flight would be delayed because our plane was late in arriving.
Our plane finally showed up but our flight had to be redirected to Detroit. It was looking like we would be stuck there overnight but they managed to fit us into the last flight back to Seattle that night. It was a nightmare. The flight totally sucked. You could see lightning flashing all around the plane.
When we finally got into Seattle, the boss-man said we should all just check into the Marriott, chill out in the hot tub and take the first flight into Anchorage in the morning. Two of us had been road-trippin' it for nearly a month. We were tired and pissed and really just wanted to go home. "OK OK... FINE... We'll go home as scheduled"
We landed back in Anchorage at about 1:30 am, Sept 11. At 6:30am I got a call from one of the guys I was travelling with... "Turn on the TV"
So yeah, I remember September 10th, 2001.
Our plane finally showed up but our flight had to be redirected to Detroit. It was looking like we would be stuck there overnight but they managed to fit us into the last flight back to Seattle that night. It was a nightmare. The flight totally sucked. You could see lightning flashing all around the plane.
When we finally got into Seattle, the boss-man said we should all just check into the Marriott, chill out in the hot tub and take the first flight into Anchorage in the morning. Two of us had been road-trippin' it for nearly a month. We were tired and pissed and really just wanted to go home. "OK OK... FINE... We'll go home as scheduled"
We landed back in Anchorage at about 1:30 am, Sept 11. At 6:30am I got a call from one of the guys I was travelling with... "Turn on the TV"
So yeah, I remember September 10th, 2001.
No one thinks 9-11 was a good thing, unless you are some extremist terrorist.
Just as you have the right to believe what your government tells you, so do others have the right not to. Regardless of how much it hurts losing your friends, you will have to get tougher and not let others opinions drag you down or rile you up. My apologies on your loss.
First, thank-you for your courtesy.
Second, let's do this, the day he can refute me with facts that I have, I'll respect his postion. Until then, no. It's been 6+ year and I usually do quite well but honestly, this is to deep into left field and to uninformed to just let go.....
There, I've written more in this forum than I have in 5 years.......he just don't wanna go there.
- Jul 1, 2004
- 21,030
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I hope you don't think I believe that someone other than AQ planned and carried out the attacks. I only believe it likely that the appropriate people in our gov't knew it was going to happen, and allowed it to, for a handful of reasons. If you find that to be disrespectful, then I am sorry you feel that way. I certainly don't mean it to be. And I do respect and feel sorrow for your loss.
I for one think that every penny the US government spends should be accounted for and public record - I think people would be appalled at some of the crap that gets stuck into bills to pay for garbage projects.
The only thing ironic about the timing of this, and about the statement itself - is how quickly the righties on this board are saying things like "what, you think Rummy had a clue? Since when should we believe anything Rummy said?" - when back in the day, his word was the gospel. I'd imagine that a few years from now they will be all over GWB's words and actions, despite the fact that they pretty much backed everything he said/did in office.
Let's review - our Secretary of Defense said to the world "We lost 2.3 TRILLION dollars." Quite frankly - if that wasn't an accurate statement he should be been fired the same day.
As for the 9/11 'conspiricy' folks - while I suppose it's possible that an Al-Q attack was suspected, to think they let or allowed it to happen, or had anything to do with buildings collapsing, is beyond absurd.
The only thing ironic about the timing of this, and about the statement itself - is how quickly the righties on this board are saying things like "what, you think Rummy had a clue? Since when should we believe anything Rummy said?" - when back in the day, his word was the gospel. I'd imagine that a few years from now they will be all over GWB's words and actions, despite the fact that they pretty much backed everything he said/did in office.
Let's review - our Secretary of Defense said to the world "We lost 2.3 TRILLION dollars." Quite frankly - if that wasn't an accurate statement he should be been fired the same day.
As for the 9/11 'conspiricy' folks - while I suppose it's possible that an Al-Q attack was suspected, to think they let or allowed it to happen, or had anything to do with buildings collapsing, is beyond absurd.
Just wanted to point out that the CIA is NOT part of the Department of Defense. Neither is the NSA. DIA is the DoD intelligence agency.
So you just debunked absolutely nothing. Anyone who has worked in the government knows the crazy shit that happens. The money did not disappear. It was spent. You should see all the BS that goes into government contracts.....
I would also like to add that the DoD is not like a company. Each agency has their own accounting systems that are not compatible with each other. A lot of this is changing but many agencies are using financial systems that were written 40 years ago. So when a call comes down to account for money, it is typically a very manual process prone to many errors.
StageLeft
No Lifer
- Sep 29, 2000
- 70,150
- 5
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Yikes, some of you are very cavalier about what your employee (government) is doing with your money. Bad accounting can lose a few bucks here and there but if you cannot account for $2.3T, that's not just bad accounting, that's gross incompetence, which is of course par for the course.
It's no wonder that the state of politics is as it appears today when this type of mentality is the norm. The Bush admin is not responsible for any "loss" prior to their reign just as the Clinton admin is not responsible for anything that occurred once Bush admin policies were the driving force. Both sides need to get over themselves thinking that they have some moral royal flush while the other party is holding rags.
If you want to blame the Bush admin for losing money....blame them directly for the loss of $9B in cash that was sent to Iraq. But to blame them for the loss of $2.3T when they weren't even in office is pure partisan stupidity that has made your brain as liquid as Schiavo's.
As has been stated, Rumsfeld's stupidity in not realizing that a lot of this "lost money" goes to places that have classified budgets is what made this seem like a loss of $2.3T and not some actual theft. Although I'm sure that a small portion made more than one politician a very cozy nest egg.
If you want to blame the Bush admin for losing money....blame them directly for the loss of $9B in cash that was sent to Iraq. But to blame them for the loss of $2.3T when they weren't even in office is pure partisan stupidity that has made your brain as liquid as Schiavo's.
As has been stated, Rumsfeld's stupidity in not realizing that a lot of this "lost money" goes to places that have classified budgets is what made this seem like a loss of $2.3T and not some actual theft. Although I'm sure that a small portion made more than one politician a very cozy nest egg.
Conspiracies, conspiracies, conspiracies.
I remember right after 9/11, lots of people were talking about how Israel must have been involved, or that 'no Jews' went to work that day.
Guess they forgot to tell my Uncle.
I remember right after 9/11, lots of people were talking about how Israel must have been involved, or that 'no Jews' went to work that day.
Guess they forgot to tell my Uncle.
TastesLikeChicken
Lifer
- Sep 12, 2004
- 16,852
- 59
- 86
You have to pay attention to timelines to understand why Clinton is involved.Originally posted by: bamacre
Who said anything about Clinton?
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,251
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If you really believe that then you are an idiot.
We have a government that can't keep a blow job a secret but somehow someone knew about AQ's plans and kept it secret so they could use it to their advantage?
Do you understand that the people most likely to discover AQ's plans would have been low level intel types and it's highly unlikely that someone found out and decided to keep it to himself or after telling his boss was told to keep quiet etc etc.
We are VERY lucky that 50,000 people didn't die on 9-11. And the idea that someone would have known about the attack before hand and risked letting 50,000 people die so they could come up with an excuse to invade Afghanistan or Iraq is asinine.
The chances of me voting Democrat are approaching 0% very quickly after I was disappointed with some of Obama's latest plans. Unless he changes his positions and readjust himself he is no longer an agent of change (obvious when he appoints people who were long in the "System" to help write up these plans). The other candidates I never planned to vote for - Hillary (George Bush without a penis) and Edwards do NOT impress me at all.
I actually do have those ideals of the gov actually providing for the people and agree with them in PRINCIPLE, but I understand that its a utopia that doesn't exist and will not exist in real life...so might as well limit the problem and understand that the gov providing for the people is staying the hell out of their lives as much as necessary.
That does not mean however I'm stupid enough to believe 90% of the republican candidates do not want to increase the size of the government.
But your premise is not a direct analogy to this situation unless that is how you want to pass it off. What you do with your own money is something totally different than what a system does with our money (which includes accounting)
Elfenix - Let me adjust what I said...I don't think the government itself is purposely crappy at handling cash. I think they easily have the ability to do so. Rather I think they don't CARE to actually count it because then they will know exactly how much they are spending, and its easy to spend without knowing what the total bill should be.
I'm going to have to agree here...I don't think I emphasized ENOUGH that the Republican party is not committed to reducing the size of the government OR spending less money.
Doesn't matter what a party platform says, doesn't matter what they say at election time...the last 8 years have shown ANYTHING but a reduction in spending...and these bills aren't passing the senate with only Democrats voting for them~
Having worked with government contracting and through many of its processes, I can understand how a lot of money can get "lost". The paperwork is mountainous, the procedures lengthy, and the accounting atrocious. Due primarily to the paperwork and procedures, contractors, project managers and purchasing agents often resort to circumventing the system in order to get things accomplished. Unfortunately, this wink and a nod and a look the other way also contribute to the prevalent corruption and graft associated with government contracting. Also, favoritism plays an important role in government contracting, which is a contributing factor to a shoddy system where accounting is often reduced to incoherent purchase orders, change orders and invoicing; where materials are marked up beyond reasonable comprehension or just never delivered at all.
Having said all that, it seems to me that Rumsfeld wanted to clean the mess up by declaring his war on waste. A system that was allowed to perpetuate under his predecessor. Why would the Bush administration then try to cover this up by allowing the attacks on 11 Sept. to occur? It just doesn't make sense. I can think of a lot of tinfoil reasons to point an accusing finger, but this isn't one of them.
Having said all that, it seems to me that Rumsfeld wanted to clean the mess up by declaring his war on waste. A system that was allowed to perpetuate under his predecessor. Why would the Bush administration then try to cover this up by allowing the attacks on 11 Sept. to occur? It just doesn't make sense. I can think of a lot of tinfoil reasons to point an accusing finger, but this isn't one of them.
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