Did lightning fry my receiver?

[ahdaniels76]

I have a setup where my DirecTV box goes into a receiver (new one) via HDMI in and goes via HDMI out to a projector. It worked yesterday (and for a month or so before). Last night there was a storm with some nearby lightning. Today the receiver doesn't automatically turn on when I turn on the projector. I turn the receiver on manually and the HDMI out light is off. My Yamaha app can't find the receiver. Radio doesn't seem to work. The buttons on the receiver work.

I tried turning it off (unplugging it) for a while, moving cables around, etc., and no luck.

I plugged my DirecTV straight into the projector and I get video, so it's not the DirecTV box.

Seems like it's fried... any chance warranties cover this? I thought I had a surge protector on the system, but maybe it wasn't good enough.

Any thoughts? I'm pretty bummed about this.

Thanks

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I have a setup where my DirecTV box goes into a receiver (new one) via HDMI in and goes via HDMI out to a projector. It worked yesterday (and for a month or so before). Last night there was a storm with some nearby lightning. Today the receiver doesn't automatically turn on when I turn on the projector. I turn the receiver on manually and the HDMI out light is off. My Yamaha app can't find the receiver. Radio doesn't seem to work. The buttons on the receiver work.

I tried turning it off (unplugging it) for a while, moving cables around, etc., and no luck.

I plugged my DirecTV straight into the projector and I get video, so it's not the DirecTV box.

Seems like it's fried... any chance warranties cover this? I thought I had a surge protector on the system, but maybe it wasn't good enough.

Any thoughts? I'm pretty bummed about this.

Thanks

Too late for this to save you from your misery on the damaged receiver.

After all my interest poured into microcomputers in the '80s and '90s, I didn't spend a lot of time "tweaking" my stereo system -- I just "used" it. But eventually, with the computers, I'd free up a battery backup system (UPS) and allocate it to the sound system for clean power, spike/surge protection and so forth.

It's either that, or use of a power-strip surge suppressor.

The only problem with the UPS: Even with my new Onkyo receiver, I don't think there's a way to use the USB communication channel to a UPS, or get it to turn off the power to the receiver when there is a black-out. Thus, if you run the home theater system and leave it turned on while away from home, you might have a black-out that would run down the battery, and running down the battery shortens its life.

 

[nsafreak]

I agree with the above poster, the receiver is likely a goner. You could still use a UPS even if the devices hooked up to it don't have a way to talk to it. Simply hook a laptop/PC up to it when you're first setting it up and set the UPS to power off after 5 minutes or so. All of the APC UPSs that I've dealt with save these settings within the UPS itself so that even if you don't have a PC hooked into it it'll shut down automatically to whatever it was last set to timeframe wise.

 

[Zivic]

I lost 4 grand worth of electronics this spring. UPS will not protect you. I lost equipment on APC ups as well as equipment on belkin line conditioners. only way to really protect your equipment is to unplug them

 

[fralexandr]

don't many surge protectors have a monetary guarantee?
i suppose whether or not you can get money from them depends on if that company does or doesn't cover lightning, and whether or not your outlets are "properly" grounded

I'm not sure how hard they are to claim, but the guarantee is why I got a tripplite surge protector for the home theater setup
http://www.tripplite.com/en/support/ultimate-lifetime-insurance-policy.cfm
http://www.amazon.com/Tripp-Lite-HT1.../dp/B0038JOJYS
as per amazon's manufacturer's description, they cover lightning

I wonder how one is required to prove that the outlet is "properly" grounded though

 

[frowertr]

Two words: Induced Voltage.

Lightning has a nasty habit of inducing voltage along conductors when it strikes close. Even if those conductors are not energized at the moment of the strike. Simple UPS/Surge protectors won't help you. The only way to 100% save equipment is to unplug all conductors (i.e. Speaker wire, Cat 5, etc...) from the equipment.

Luckly it takes real close strikes in order for this to happen but it does happen unfortunately...

 

[ahdaniels76]

A few times I did hear some very loud thunder at the exact time I saw some lightning, so I think there must have been one close strike. Fortunately it looks like it's just the receiver that's toast.

Thanks

 

[birthdaymonkey]

Many home owners or tenants insurance policies include coverage for stuff that gets damaged by lightning. If you have insurance, this might be worth checking out (depending on the value of your receiver vs. the deductible of course).

 

[westom]

Seems like it's fried... any chance warranties cover this? I thought I had a surge protector on the system, but maybe it wasn't good enough.

Did you read the manufacturer specifications numbers? Does it claim to protect from any typically destructive surge? If located adjacent to electronics and too far from earth ground, then it does not claim any such protection.

Then read the warranty's fine print. Many exemptions so that it need not be honored. That big buck warranty number is a sales gimmick. It works because so many never bother to read the spec numbers or the fine print.

A protector too close to electronics and too far from earth ground can even make surge damage easier? What does it do? Maybe connects the surge from one wire to all other wires. Now that surge has even more wires to find earth ground destructively via any nearby electronics.

Any facility that must never have damage will upgrade the earth ground. And earth one 'whole house' protector. The superior protection costs about $1 per protected appliance. And even gives a number that says it protects from direct lightning strikes. Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector can connect 50,000 amps to earth. But again, it is not the protector that protects your TV. It is the earth ground. A protector without that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth does not claim that protection. And will promote itself with a mythical warranty.

Now, what is damaged? Well, what made a connection from the protector to earth ground? If cable is properly installed, then it was earthed at the service entrance - the best surge protection possible. Unfortunately, if you all but inviting a surge to be inside, then that can be one and destructive path outgoing to earth.

Either a surge is inside hunting destructively for earth via appliances. Or it is harmlessly absorbed outside the building. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

 

[bud--]

Excellent information on surges and surge protection is at:
http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_lhm/IEEE_Guide.pdf" - "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and communication circuits"; published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is a major organization of electrical and electronic engineers).
And also:
http://www.eeel.nist.gov/817/pubs/spd-anthology/files/Surges happen!.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the appliances in your home"; published by the US National Institute of Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE surge guide is aimed at people with some technical background.

Did you read the manufacturer specifications numbers? Does it claim to protect from any typically destructive surge? If located adjacent to electronics and too far from earth ground, then it does not claim any such protection.

Complete nonsense.

Some even have protected equipment warranties

Then read the warranty's fine print.

My TV died yesterday. Musta been a surge.

Fine print is necessary.

And earth one 'whole house' protector.

Service panel protectors are a real good idea.
But from the NIST guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

Service panel suppressors do not by themselves prevent high voltages from developing between power and phone/cable wires. The NIST surge guide suggests most equipment damage is from high voltage between power and signal wires.

Service panel protectors are very likely to protect anything connected only to power wires from a very near very strong lightning strike. They may or may not protect equipment with both power and signal connections.

Lightning is typically 20,000 amps. So a minimal 'whole house' protector can connect 50,000 amps to earth.

The author of the NIST surge guide looked at surges on power service wires. He found the maximum surge on a residential power service that has any reasonable probability of occurring is 10,000A per wire. That is based on a 100,000A lightning strike to a utility pole adjacent to a house. Service panel protectors with higher ratings just give long life. Recommendations for ratings are in the IEEE surge guide on page 18.

A protector without that low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth does not claim that protection.

Nonsense.

As explained in the IEEE surge guide (starting page 30) plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge. They work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between the wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment.

When using a plug-in protector all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same protector. External connections, like coax also must go through the protector.

If using a plug-in protector the DirecTV box and receiver and projector need to be connected to the same protector and the dish coax needs to go through the protector.

Westom believes plug-in protectors to not work. Both the IEEE and NIST surge guides say they are effective.

There are some loose ends when using service panel and plug-in protectors. As frowertr notes a very near strike can directly induce voltages on wires like speaker wires. This isn't likely but can happen. And the IEEE surge guide notes something like an air conditioner compressor/condenser on a concrete pad may be at a very different ground (earth) potential from the building wiring (power wires) during a strong surge event. The branch circuit ground wire can have too high an impedance for surge currents to protect it.

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Airplanes regularly get hit by lightning.
Are they crashing?
Do they drag an earthing chain?

 

[ahdaniels76]

Wow... lots of info. I hooked up my other receiver and my home theater is back to working, so the receiver is the only thing out of commission. I'm taking it in to the warranty repair place to see what they can do. I guess they'll either fix/replace it or tell me the cause of damage is not covered.

In the meantime, I ordered a better surge protector for the system. I did notice that the receiver is only 2-pronged. Does that matter if the surge protector/strip has the 3rd prong.

As for whole-home grounding and a more effective solution, I'm having trouble making sense of the above. What's the basic non-tech suggestion? e.g. "call company X and tell them you want a whole-home ground set up. It'll cost you $120 or so and mean doing the following with your outlets/equipment: X, Y, and Z."

 

[westom]

I did notice that the receiver is only 2-pronged. Does that matter if the surge protector/strip has the 3rd prong.

Safety ground in a receptacle is not earth ground for many engineering reasons. Meanwhile the NIST citation defines that adjacent protector on page 17:

A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Where on that protector is a dedicated wire for the always so important 'less than 10 foot' connection to the earth ground rod? Does not exist. Why does the manufacturer not even mention earthing? Or where is the spec numbers that claims that protection? It does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges. IOW the NIST calls it "useless".

Go to Lowes or Home Depot. Ask for their Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector. It even sells for less than $50. That means every item in the house is protected - if the earth ground is properly installed. Yes, it will be confusing because unlearning so many advertising myths is hard. They even confuse safety ground in a receptacle with earth ground to protect sales.

Simple. Once that surge is inside the building, then it will hunt for earth destructively via appliances. Two wire or three. With or without an adjacent protector. Irrelevant. All remain potential and destructive connections to earth. Nothing inside will or claims to stop that destructive hunt. Either a surge current is earthed before entering the building. Or your best protection is what already exists inside the appliance.

More responsible companies sell that other, superior, and different device - that is also called a protector. Many are names that any guy would know for integrity including Leviton, General Electric, ABB, Siemens, Polyphaser, Ditek, Kieson, Clipsal, Intermatic, Square D, and of course Cutler-Hammer (Eaton). In every case, it has the dedicated and always required earthing wire. Most homeonwers can install it. Otherwise an electrician may be necessary.

Other solutions are available. For example, the electric company will rent one that sits behind their meter.

A separate wire must exist for the always required low impedance (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. Why is that wall receptacle safety ground not an earth ground? See that number - '10 feet'. A safety ground wire is many times too long, has sharp wire bends, splices, etc. All create excessive impedance and compromised protection. Earth ground is where wires enter the building.

A protector must connect surge energy harmlessly to earth before entering. Otherwise a protector will not even discuss that energy and will not discuss protection. Read the spec for that new protector. Post any number that claims protection.

Any facility that can never have damage always earths a 'whole house' protector. Best protection means a protector as close to earth as possible. And increased distance between a protector and the appliance. The superior solution typically costs about $1 per protected appliance. Then nobody knows a surge (ie lightning strike) existed.

Ignore all wires inside the house - two wire or three. Don't do anything to any interior receptacle. That is not relevant. Most critical is a connection from any incoming utility wire to your earth ground. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Otherwise the NIST calls it "useless". And the IEEE brochure (page 42 figure 8) shows how it might earth a surge destructively via nearby appliances - make damage easier.

 

[bud--]

I did notice that the receiver is only 2-pronged. Does that matter if the surge protector/strip has the 3rd prong.

No problem.

Meanwhile the NIST citation defines that adjacent protector on page 17:

Immediately following westom's quote is a list of surge protectors that can be used. #6 is "Plug-in...The easiest of all for anyone to do. The only question is 'Which to choose?"
What else does the NIST surge guide says about plug-in protectors?
They are "the easiest solution".
And "one effective solution is to have the consumer install "a multiport plug-in suppressor".

Where on that protector is a dedicated wire for the always so important 'less than 10 foot' connection to the earth ground rod? Does not exist. Why does the manufacturer not even mention earthing?

Since westom has a reading deficit - repeating:
"As explained in the IEEE surge guide (starting page 30) plug-in protectors do not work primarily by earthing a surge. They work by limiting the voltage from each wire (power and signal) to the ground at the protector. The voltage between the wires going to the protected equipment is safe for the protected equipment."

Or where is the spec numbers that claims that protection? It does not claim to protect from typically destructive surges.

Complete nonsense.

Some plug-in protectors even have protected equipment warranties.

Many people have posted specs. They are always ignored by westom .

IOW the NIST calls it "useless".

Only in westom's fantasies.

More responsible companies sell that other, superior, and different device - that is also called a protector. Many are names that any guy would know for integrity including Leviton, General Electric, ABB, Siemens, Polyphaser, Ditek, Kieson, Clipsal, Intermatic, Square D, and of course Cutler-Hammer (Eaton).

All these "responsible companies" except SquareD and Polyphaser make plug-in protectors and say they are effective. Why do westom's "responsible companies" make plug-in protectors that westom says don't work.

SquareD says for their "best" service panel suppressor "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [protectors] at the point of use."

For real science read the IEEE and NIST surge guides. Both of them also say plug-in protectors are effective.

Any facility that can never have damage always earths a 'whole house' protector.

Repeating from the NIST surge guide:
"Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house?
A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances [electronic equipment], No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or cable or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

Airplanes regularly get hit by lightning.
Are they crashing?
Do they drag an earthing chain?
Is it only 10 ft long?

And the IEEE brochure (page 42 figure 8) shows how it might earth a surge destructively via nearby appliances - make damage easier.

Also nonsense.