did greece just elect Nazis into government??

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ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
15,987
2
81
It depends on context Shawn.

The main problem we have with statistics these days is that we gather a lot of information, find some sort of irrelevant correlation (such as the Ice Cream Flavor most enjoyed by Illegal Immigrants) than take the findings and quote them out of context
There's no out of context problem with the okcupid question. It's very clear: should illegal immigrants be deported. Most people that I've looked at answered no. Then again, all of the people I looked at are in my age bracket - young.
The Simpsons had an episode about illegal immigrants many years ago. I guess the writers favour illegal immigration because that's the side the family took.

You are not one of those people who think WW2 was not simply a continuation of WW1 with a short period of no fighting, are you?
One of the most interesting things about WW2 is that Hitler was very particular about the surrender of France. The official surrender took place in the same forest and in the same rail car as the surrender Germany signed at the end of WW1. It's not enough to just kill someone; you also need to dance on their grave.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
One of the most interesting things about WW2 is that Hitler was very particular about the surrender of France. The official surrender took place in the same forest and in the same rail car as the surrender Germany signed at the end of WW1. It's not enough to just kill someone; you also need to dance on their grave.

Yep, he made it quite clear WW2 was a continuation of WW1, which he felt Germany should have won.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
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Of course it is. It's all within the context of white supremacy.

This is bull.

Fascism itself developed as an off-shoot of socialism which itself was splintered into varies camps. Fascism injected into socialism a strong view toward nationalism and authoritarianism by using the power of government to achieve goals set fourth usually by an very authoritarian political party and/or leader. With the rise of Fascism it was then the Germans who injected the race based ideologies into fascism when they were exposed to it and thus they created their own version known as Nazism which took nationalism, authoritarianism, along with the added strong forms of racism and the appeal to the mass of offering a "chicken in every pot" and "Fair wages for every German".

Just as Arabs took Fascism and used it to push their own version known as the Baathist party which was also influenced by Nazism. However in the end all these political ideologies stemmed from the same view that control of government and its expansion would help bring about the agendas for all the above mentioned groups by using the majority to override the rights of the minority in society by abusing the power of government itself.
 
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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
its interesting the germans by not paying for the sins of the greeks have created nazis:awe:

The Germans have paid for the Greeks over-spending by bailing them out but they aren't stupid. They (Germans and other EU nations) want concessions on spending via austerity measures (aka control you fucking spending assholes).

This Greek Nazi party basically got their votes by promising to get rid of the "traitors" who agreed to austerity and vowing to continuing the spending spree along side the other racist and nationalist appeals bullshit.
 

Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
0
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This is bull.

Fascism itself developed as an off-shoot of socialism which itself was splintered into varies camps. Fascism injected into socialism a strong view toward nationalism and authoritarianism by using the power of government to achieve goals set fourth usually by an very authoritarian political party and/or leader.

I'm sorry, but this is absolutely counterfactual. Fascism as a modern political movement has its roots as a reaction against socialism, not an offshoot from it. Whereas socialism focused on the rational, fascism was concerned with the romantic (in the movement sense of the word.) Socialism emphasized liberal democracy, internationalism, materialism, fascism in turn focused on authoritarianism, nationalism, and philosophical subjectivism. At the root it was a rejection of socialism that spawned the early fascists.
 
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DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
I'm sorry, but this is absolutely counterfactual. Fascism as a modern political movement has its roots as a reaction against socialism, not an offshoot from it. Whereas socialism focused on the rational, fascism was concerned with the romantic (in the movement sense of the word.) Socialism emphasized liberal democracy, internationalism, materialism, fascism in turn focused on authoritarianism, nationalism, and philosophical subjectivism. At the root it was a rejection of socialism that spawned the early fascists.

You are basically reinforcing my point.

The "reaction" was the rejection of what Fascists saw as the passivity of many socialist movements (such as the socialist democratic movement) as you stated but it was not a total rejection of the idealism behind the collectivist philosophy itself which via the use of government was seen vital in order to justify the means to their ends in order to achieve the goals stated within the Fascist's agenda.

Neither did they reject that method of appealing to majority at the expense of those they vilified aka the minority to further their goals. So while they rejected the democratic ideals along side modern neo-liberal and classical-liberal ideals they did not wholly reject the ideals and methods of expansionary government, governmental control and regulation of markets, over-riding of personal freedoms for the "Greater good" (which became obscenely distorted under Fascist and Nazi regimes), etc to satisfy the whims of the majority who they claimed to represent.

Edit: As a side note. Socialist liberalism was itself divergence and splinter from the classical liberal ideas espoused by John Locke, John Madison, etc and classic liberal economists such as Ludwig von Mises all of whom favored individual rights when it came political governance and economic matters, especially in regard to government's role with the economy. All of them viewed the necessity to keep government itself small in order to safe guard the inalienable rights of individuals from the mob known as "the majority" who if given enough power could very easily use and abuse government as a club to be used against those who stood in their way, aka the "minority"/individual.
 
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Abraxas

Golden Member
Oct 26, 2004
1,056
0
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You are basically reinforcing my point.

The "reaction" was the rejection of what Fascists saw as the passivity of many socialist movements (such as the socialist democratic movement) as you stated but it was not a total rejection of the idealism behind the collectivist philosophy itself which via the use of government was seen vital in order to justify the means to their ends in order to achieve the goals stated within Fascist agenda.
That is just it though, the socialist movement was not inherently collectivist, certainly not through the fascist worldview. The socialists were radical individualists, the ideals behind socialism were that of liberal democracy. The work place was not to be run by an owner, it would be run by the workers themselves. Law would not be decided by a ruler, it would be made between individuals. Keep in mind also the idealized endpoint for the Marxist was indistinguishable of anarchism on a global scale. Classes in the socialist model were not hard groups but rather alliances of common interest. The working class unites and so forth not because of some inherent structure or some natural order, but because as individuals their interests coincide.

Fascism is very different, it did emphasize, first of all, heirarchy and meritocracy, that the better people should command and rule the lesser people. Second, it emphasized group identity, in particular as it related to nationalism where it emerged as movements in Italy, Spain, France, and Germany, but later (in particular in Germany) it adopted race as well.

Government structure also were polar opposites. If you read the early writings from the socialists, they envisioned a bottom up government. Local councils would convene for local matters and vote, where larger matter were concerned representatives could be elected and dispatched to regional or global gatherings. Fascism was very much top down, I don't think this requires much exposition. The greater rule the lesser.

Take care not to confuse modern usage of the word socialism, which is basically government runs stuff, with the original meaning which was universal democracy and an absence of centralized power structure. If you want an example, look to Catalonia circa the Spanish Civil War for a good example of how socialism was supposed to work (before Franco killed everyone).
Neither did they reject that method of appealing to majority at the expense of those they vilified aka the minority to further their goals. So while they rejected the democratic ideals along side modern neo-liberal and classical-liberal ideals they did not wholly reject the ideals and methods of expansionary government, governmental control and regulation of markets, over-riding of personal freedoms, etc to satisfy the majority.
No, those are the things the early socialists rejected.
Edit: As a side note. Socialist liberalism was itself divergence and splinter from the classical liberal ideas espoused by John Locke and classic liberal economists such as Ludwig von Mises which favor the individual over the majority both political in regards to rights and economically in regard to government role with the economy.

Not precisely. If you want to draw the line, you really need to start between Marx and Hegel. While not strictly precise, it is close enough and very convenient. Hegel ran as you described down the Locke track, however, Marx took dialectics, the philosophical process by which Hegel justified classical liberalism, and turned it on its head. Marx contended that classical liberalism cannot possibly embody the individual because it forcibly separates the individual from his labor.

Marx saw the world in terms of classes, the dominant groups being the capitalist class, those who owned the means of production, and the worker class, those who operated the means of production. In addition to owning the means of production, they also controlled the only source of wealth which can provide a reliable means to acquire the necessities for life. This put the workers in a coerced state wherein they must go to the capitalist class and exchange the only thing they have, their labor power. However, Marx held that the working class would never be given the full value of their labor, after all, why would the capitalist allow the worker to use the factory and get nothing out of it?

It follows logically, that only part of the time a worker works they do so for their own wages. Some of the money from the efforts of the worker must go back into profits, otherwise the capitalist has no reason to be involved. If the production of X number of widgets will pay the wages and the material costs, there must always be an additional Y number of widgets that goes back into the company and to pay the living expenses of the factory owner. Marx took this to mean that in order for an individual to be fully actualized, they would need to be both the factory worker and the factory owner. The workers needed to control the means of production in order to be free of coercion.

The reading of Marx as one who would subsume an individual to an authority is bass ackwards from what he and the early socialists intended; they viewed themselves as emancipators from all forms of external authority.
 

Jimbo

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,641
0
76
Greek communists just took over 25.2% of the vote.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/47323787

How come nobody is hyperventilating over that?
They ran with roughly the same anti-austerity campaign the Nazis did.

That election was like watching a bunch of junkies decide if they wanted to enter rehab or simply switch dealers.
 

cybrsage

Lifer
Nov 17, 2011
13,021
0
0
Because liberals love communism, so doing the same thing as a fascist group (but under the name of communism) is good.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,358
5,112
136
In practical terms, I don't see any of this making any difference in the pending meltdown. The Greeks owe far more than they can pay, they have to default, or dump the euro and start printing their own money. Though they may get the Germans to pay their bills for a couple more years first.

It's what happens after the implosion that should be interesting. After party X tells the EU to get lost, they're going to get the boot so party Y can come into power and start borrowing money to keep Greece afloat. That's the group that matters, and I would assume it will have to be a socialist Government so the Germans will lend them another butt load of money. I don't see the Germans handing billions of euros over to the Nazi party.
 

peonyu

Platinum Member
Mar 12, 2003
2,038
23
81
"Golden Dawn (Greek: Χρυσή Αυγή, Chrysi Avgi, Greek pronunciation: [xriˈsi avˈʝi]) is a Greek far-right political organization led by Nikolaos Michaloliakos. It expresses anti-immigration views and is known for its militancy. It expresses sympathy with the regime of Ioannis Metaxas. It is also commonly described as neo-Nazi[6] and fascist[7] although the group rejects these labels.



The word "Neo-Nazi" is often used to label anything that is nationalist and may pose a threat to the current power holders. The intent is that it will scare voters away from voting for them since they are called "Nazis", and that will help the power holders stay in place longer and fuck up Greece even more. Also this party is calling for Illegal Aliens to be deported, not ALL non-Greeks. That is quite a huge difference from what the media is stating where they want to deport anyone not Indigenous to Europe.

Dont let propaganda and lies [from the liberals as usual] confuse what is really going on.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
"Golden Dawn (Greek: Χρυσή Αυγή, Chrysi Avgi, Greek pronunciation: [xriˈsi avˈʝi]) is a Greek far-right political organization led by Nikolaos Michaloliakos. It expresses anti-immigration views and is known for its militancy. It expresses sympathy with the regime of Ioannis Metaxas. It is also commonly described as neo-Nazi[6] and fascist[7] although the group rejects these labels.



The word "Neo-Nazi" is often used to label anything that is nationalist and may pose a threat to the current power holders. The intent is that it will scare voters away from voting for them since they are called "Nazis", and that will help the power holders stay in place longer and fuck up Greece even more. Also this party is calling for Illegal Aliens to be deported, not ALL non-Greeks. That is quite a huge difference from what the media is stating where they want to deport anyone not Indigenous to Europe.

Dont let propaganda and lies [from the liberals as usual] confuse what is really going on.
Good to know and makes me feel better for Greece. Although a party that goes after illegal aliens with chainsaws still isn't one I'd want anywhere near power, in spite of general agreement with them on the subject.