Did California really need to fund housing for farmworkers?

[Infohawk]

Serna Farmworker Fund

Seriously?

Some of the buildings built with this grant money has HVAC. Since when is HVAC, even in hot places, a human right?

More importantly, one of the arguments in favor of immigration is that we get cheap labor for our consumer society. But what is the point if we're just subsidizing this cheap labor with state funds? Why not let the market sort out what conditions these workers are willing to put up with? In the unlikely event it's more profitable for them to be outside of the USA, then food costs will go up and wages will attract more workers either domestically or internationally.

 

[sandorski]

Agricultural Subsidy. That's what it is. As for Air Con, I think it would definitely be necessary. They are not performing cushy Office Jobs all day, but spending most of their time out in the sun. They probably use those Homes for recouping during breaks even(possibly). Plus they are for whole families, likely far from any facility with AirCon, Rivers or Bodies of water, and other opportunities to cool down.

I realize that you probably don't give a shit if many died doing that Work, but most people do.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Agricultural Subsidy. That's what it is.

I won't disagree with your categorization, but I'd love to see it go away with all the other farm subsidies too.

As for Air Con, I think it would definitely be necessary. They are not performing cushy Office Jobs all day, but spending most of their time out in the sun. They probably use those Homes for recouping during breaks even(possibly). Plus they are for whole families, likely far from any facility with AirCon, Rivers or Bodies of water, and other opportunities to cool down.

I think this is a huge reason California's decent welfare program doesn't work anymore. AC is a luxury. People in much hotter climates have always found ways to cool themselves down, including people without access to modern healthcare. By constantly matching welfare to the latest luxuries, we are just making it impossible to give any welfare at all.

I realize that you probably don't give a shit if many died doing that Work, but most people do.

The mean conservative argument isn't very useful. I can come back at you with how promoting AC everywhere is fracking the environment.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: sandorski
Agricultural Subsidy. That's what it is.

I won't disagree with your categorization, but I'd love to see it go away with all the other farm subsidies too.

As for Air Con, I think it would definitely be necessary. They are not performing cushy Office Jobs all day, but spending most of their time out in the sun. They probably use those Homes for recouping during breaks even(possibly). Plus they are for whole families, likely far from any facility with AirCon, Rivers or Bodies of water, and other opportunities to cool down.

I think this is a huge reason California's decent welfare program doesn't work anymore. AC is a luxury. People in much hotter climates have always found ways to cool themselves down, including people without access to modern healthcare. By constantly matching welfare to the latest luxuries, we are just making it impossible to give any welfare at all.

I realize that you probably don't give a shit if many died doing that Work, but most people do.

The mean conservative argument isn't very useful. I can come back at you with how promoting AC everywhere is fracking the environment.

AC is not a Luxury. Good god man, you want to cut that out of the Space Program too? Damn Astronauts living it up when other parts of NASA are hurting! :|

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: sandorski
Agricultural Subsidy. That's what it is.

I won't disagree with your categorization, but I'd love to see it go away with all the other farm subsidies too.

As for Air Con, I think it would definitely be necessary. They are not performing cushy Office Jobs all day, but spending most of their time out in the sun. They probably use those Homes for recouping during breaks even(possibly). Plus they are for whole families, likely far from any facility with AirCon, Rivers or Bodies of water, and other opportunities to cool down.

I think this is a huge reason California's decent welfare program doesn't work anymore. AC is a luxury. People in much hotter climates have always found ways to cool themselves down, including people without access to modern healthcare. By constantly matching welfare to the latest luxuries, we are just making it impossible to give any welfare at all.

I realize that you probably don't give a shit if many died doing that Work, but most people do.

The mean conservative argument isn't very useful. I can come back at you with how promoting AC everywhere is fracking the environment.

AC is not a Luxury. Good god man, you want to cut that out of the Space Program too? Damn Astronauts living it up when other parts of NASA are hurting! :|

AC is a luxury. Can you please explain to me how humans survived 250,000 years of existence without it?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Triumph

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: sandorski
Agricultural Subsidy. That's what it is.

I won't disagree with your categorization, but I'd love to see it go away with all the other farm subsidies too.

As for Air Con, I think it would definitely be necessary. They are not performing cushy Office Jobs all day, but spending most of their time out in the sun. They probably use those Homes for recouping during breaks even(possibly). Plus they are for whole families, likely far from any facility with AirCon, Rivers or Bodies of water, and other opportunities to cool down.

I think this is a huge reason California's decent welfare program doesn't work anymore. AC is a luxury. People in much hotter climates have always found ways to cool themselves down, including people without access to modern healthcare. By constantly matching welfare to the latest luxuries, we are just making it impossible to give any welfare at all.

I realize that you probably don't give a shit if many died doing that Work, but most people do.

The mean conservative argument isn't very useful. I can come back at you with how promoting AC everywhere is fracking the environment.

AC is not a Luxury. Good god man, you want to cut that out of the Space Program too? Damn Astronauts living it up when other parts of NASA are hurting! :|

AC is a luxury. Can you please explain to me how humans survived 250,000 years of existence without it?

Incorrect. Much of California's Agricultural areas are Desert or near Desert. People didn't perform those Activities in those locations for 250, 000 years. It is not a Luxury, it is a necessity.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Incorrect. Much of California's Agricultural areas are Desert or near Desert. People didn't perform those Activities in those locations for 250, 000 years. It is not a Luxury, it is a necessity.

LOL. People have been farming in all sorts of climates since the agrictultural revolution, including in really hot places. They didn't have ice machines either. And if it's as bad as you say, they would apparently need A/C spacesuits or mobile A/C units constantly blowing on them as they work in the field. It's not like anyone is saying they can't have access to water on the job. :roll:

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: sandorski
Incorrect. Much of California's Agricultural areas are Desert or near Desert. People didn't perform those Activities in those locations for 250, 000 years. It is not a Luxury, it is a necessity.

LOL. People have been farming in all sorts of climates since the agrictultural revolution, including in really hot places. They didn't have ice machines either. And if it's as bad as you say, they would apparently need A/C spacesuits or mobile A/C units constantly blowing on them as they work in the field. It's not like anyone is saying they can't have access to water on the job. :roll:

Go out and do that Job and Live there without Air Con then. Don't come mumbling to me when you get Heat Stroke.

 

[StageLeft]

Most people on the planet including those in very hot countries never have AC. That said, I personally would cut it last from my life during the summer. I can't imagine how people used to put up with it or how poor people still do (life without it). For me, it would approach shoes; yes people in the past did without them, but we kind of "need" them.

I know that some tanks have AC. I know that in the past they didn't and what hell it must be sitting in a tank on a hot day without it. Certainly if you're not sweating like a whore in church you can probably get a great deal more done with your time.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: sandorski
Go out and do that Job and Live there without Air Con then. Don't come mumbling to me when you get Heat Stroke.

I would do it if I HAD to. And if someone gave me a handout I would be happy. Hell, if someone was willing to give provide me with chauffeur service right now I would take it too. But that doesn't mean I NEED it. Just like these workers don't need A/C, a dishwasher, a TV, a car, etc.

And once again, A/C is not going to help you in the field. It's totally irrelevant.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: sandorski
Go out and do that Job and Live there without Air Con then. Don't come mumbling to me when you get Heat Stroke.

I would do it if I HAD to. And if someone gave me a handout I would be happy. Hell, if someone was willing to give provide me with chauffeur service right now I would take it too. But that doesn't mean I NEED it. Just like these workers don't need A/C, a dishwasher, a TV, a car, etc.

And once again, A/C is not going to help you in the field. It's totally irrelevant.

Says you. It is not irrelevant at all. It is not a Luxury either.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Triumph

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: sandorski
Agricultural Subsidy. That's what it is.

I won't disagree with your categorization, but I'd love to see it go away with all the other farm subsidies too.

As for Air Con, I think it would definitely be necessary. They are not performing cushy Office Jobs all day, but spending most of their time out in the sun. They probably use those Homes for recouping during breaks even(possibly). Plus they are for whole families, likely far from any facility with AirCon, Rivers or Bodies of water, and other opportunities to cool down.

I think this is a huge reason California's decent welfare program doesn't work anymore. AC is a luxury. People in much hotter climates have always found ways to cool themselves down, including people without access to modern healthcare. By constantly matching welfare to the latest luxuries, we are just making it impossible to give any welfare at all.

I realize that you probably don't give a shit if many died doing that Work, but most people do.

The mean conservative argument isn't very useful. I can come back at you with how promoting AC everywhere is fracking the environment.

AC is not a Luxury. Good god man, you want to cut that out of the Space Program too? Damn Astronauts living it up when other parts of NASA are hurting! :|

AC is a luxury. Can you please explain to me how humans survived 250,000 years of existence without it?

Incorrect. Much of California's Agricultural areas are Desert or near Desert. People didn't perform those Activities in those locations for 250, 000 years. It is not a Luxury, it is a necessity.

Why do you always Capitalize these random Words that are not Proper Nouns?

1.6 billion people live on this planet without electricity, let alone air conditioning. I'm willing to bet that some percentage of those people live in hot areas. I'm also pretty sure that some of those people who live in hot areas, work for a living. If AC is a necessity, why aren't those people dead?

Sure it's NICE to have, but California has a little bit of a budget problem, in case you hadn't heard. Simple question - do you not support budget cuts?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Triumph

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Triumph

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: sandorski
Agricultural Subsidy. That's what it is.

I won't disagree with your categorization, but I'd love to see it go away with all the other farm subsidies too.

As for Air Con, I think it would definitely be necessary. They are not performing cushy Office Jobs all day, but spending most of their time out in the sun. They probably use those Homes for recouping during breaks even(possibly). Plus they are for whole families, likely far from any facility with AirCon, Rivers or Bodies of water, and other opportunities to cool down.

I think this is a huge reason California's decent welfare program doesn't work anymore. AC is a luxury. People in much hotter climates have always found ways to cool themselves down, including people without access to modern healthcare. By constantly matching welfare to the latest luxuries, we are just making it impossible to give any welfare at all.

I realize that you probably don't give a shit if many died doing that Work, but most people do.

The mean conservative argument isn't very useful. I can come back at you with how promoting AC everywhere is fracking the environment.

AC is not a Luxury. Good god man, you want to cut that out of the Space Program too? Damn Astronauts living it up when other parts of NASA are hurting! :|

AC is a luxury. Can you please explain to me how humans survived 250,000 years of existence without it?

Incorrect. Much of California's Agricultural areas are Desert or near Desert. People didn't perform those Activities in those locations for 250, 000 years. It is not a Luxury, it is a necessity.

Why do you always Capitalize these random Words that are not Proper Nouns?

1.6 billion people live on this planet without electricity, let alone air conditioning. I'm willing to bet that some percentage of those people live in hot areas. I'm also pretty sure that some of those people who live in hot areas, work for a living. If AC is a necessity, why aren't those people dead?

Sure it's NICE to have, but California has a little bit of a budget problem, in case you hadn't heard. Simple question - do you not support budget cuts?

Do they Work in the sun 8-12 hours? All besides the point, since most of those People will die at age 50 from just being worn out.

It is not a Luxury, it is a necessity. You guys got a pretty fucked up view about it.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Triumph
Why do you always Capitalize these random Words that are not Proper Nouns?

That made me LOL.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Triumph

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Triumph

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: sandorski
Agricultural Subsidy. That's what it is.

I won't disagree with your categorization, but I'd love to see it go away with all the other farm subsidies too.

As for Air Con, I think it would definitely be necessary. They are not performing cushy Office Jobs all day, but spending most of their time out in the sun. They probably use those Homes for recouping during breaks even(possibly). Plus they are for whole families, likely far from any facility with AirCon, Rivers or Bodies of water, and other opportunities to cool down.

I think this is a huge reason California's decent welfare program doesn't work anymore. AC is a luxury. People in much hotter climates have always found ways to cool themselves down, including people without access to modern healthcare. By constantly matching welfare to the latest luxuries, we are just making it impossible to give any welfare at all.

I realize that you probably don't give a shit if many died doing that Work, but most people do.

The mean conservative argument isn't very useful. I can come back at you with how promoting AC everywhere is fracking the environment.

AC is not a Luxury. Good god man, you want to cut that out of the Space Program too? Damn Astronauts living it up when other parts of NASA are hurting! :|

AC is a luxury. Can you please explain to me how humans survived 250,000 years of existence without it?

Incorrect. Much of California's Agricultural areas are Desert or near Desert. People didn't perform those Activities in those locations for 250, 000 years. It is not a Luxury, it is a necessity.

Why do you always Capitalize these random Words that are not Proper Nouns?

1.6 billion people live on this planet without electricity, let alone air conditioning. I'm willing to bet that some percentage of those people live in hot areas. I'm also pretty sure that some of those people who live in hot areas, work for a living. If AC is a necessity, why aren't those people dead?

Sure it's NICE to have, but California has a little bit of a budget problem, in case you hadn't heard. Simple question - do you not support budget cuts?

Do they Work in the sun 8-12 hours? All besides the point, since most of those People will die at age 50 from just being worn out.

It is not a Luxury, it is a necessity. You guys got a pretty fucked up view about it.

If you Say so Chief. Might as well Get these people cable TV as well, since that is a Necessity. After all, they've been Working all day, they need to Relax In Order To Be More Productive WORKers the Next DAY.

 

[theeedude]

They aren't criminals, and they aren't on welfare, they are people out there in the sun all day bent in half so that you can have affordable fresh produce. It's interesting that you'd pick this program to bash.

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: Triumph
AC is a luxury. Can you please explain to me how humans survived 250,000 years of existence without it?

Can you please explain how humans survived 250,000 years without fire departments, highways, K-12 education, and other non-essential luxuries?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: senseamp
They aren't criminals, and they aren't on welfare, they are people out there in the sun all day bent in half so that you can have affordable fresh produce. It's interesting that you'd pick this program to bash.

This is a form of welfare. And California is having trouble paying for it. I never asked the government to give me "affordable" produce. And it's obviously not affordable if the government subsidies that are making it affordable can't be paid for.

This really comes down to whether you think the market can handle this issue or not. I think it can. If picking fruit were really so onerous then wages would rise and these people would be able to buy their own housing and a/c. Apparently the low wages are better than the alternative work or lack of it.

And again your comments indicates why modern welfare is in trouble. Picking fruit is not a concentration camp job. People have been doing it for thousands of years. Let's not cry a river here. If we focused welfare on crucial things like vaccinations, English and math, and food stamps, we'd be able to pay for it.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: senseamp
They aren't criminals, and they aren't on welfare, they are people out there in the sun all day bent in half so that you can have affordable fresh produce. It's interesting that you'd pick this program to bash.

This is a form of welfare. And California is having trouble paying for it. I never asked the government to give me "affordable" produce. And it's obviously not affordable if the government subsidies that are making it affordable can't be paid for.

This really comes down to whether you think the market can handle this issue or not. I think it can. If picking fruit were really so onerous then wages would rise and these people would be able to buy their own housing and a/c. Apparently the low wages are better than the alternative work or lack of it.

And again your comments indicates why modern welfare is in trouble. Picking fruit is not a concentration camp job. People have been doing it for thousands of years. Let's not cry a river here. If we focused welfare on crucial things like vaccinations, English and math, and food stamps, we'd be able to pay for it.

It's a form of subsidy, not welfare. A subsidy for fruit and vegetable consumers. Yes, the market can handle this, the prices of fresh produce would rise, people would eat more processed easier to pick foods instead of fresh produce. That would be free market outcome. Of course the health implications would cost more than subsidizing AC for farm workers, but hey, who cares, it's free market, can't be wrong.

 

[Triumph]

Originally posted by: jpeyton

Originally posted by: Triumph
AC is a luxury. Can you please explain to me how humans survived 250,000 years of existence without it?

Can you please explain how humans survived 250,000 years without fire departments, highways, K-12 education, and other non-essential luxuries?

Can you explain how A/C for farm workers is as important to the state budget as those things?

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Can you please explain how humans survived 250,000 years without fire departments, highways, K-12 education, and other non-essential luxuries?

The reason the government pays for these other things is that there appears to be some unique advantage in doing so. And many reasonable people don't think the government even needs to pay for many of these things. It would be silly to have a competing network of private highways, for example. Similarly, people think that education is important for our democratic (not capitalized) society. I do too. On the other hand, it makes sense to have the market handle choice of luxuries and housing. In other words, it's not a problem having competing developers building housing in various parts of town and letting people choose between them.

 

[theeedude]

There is no human right to have a fire department.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: senseamp
It's a form of subsidy, not welfare. A subsidy for fruit and vegetable consumers.

Let's not nitpick the details here. Sure it's a subsidy. It's also a welfare program by most standards. Who cares? It's unnecessary either way and California can't pay for it.

Yes, the market can handle this, the prices of fresh produce would rise, people would eat more processed easier to pick foods instead of fresh produce. That would be free market outcome.

You don't know that. People might spend more of their income for the same amount of fresh produce. And it's not like the currently cheap produce appears to be having any effect on the obesity problem. People CHOOSE to eat crap anyway.

Of course the health implications would cost more than subsidizing AC for farm workers, but hey, who cares, it's free market, can't be wrong.

The free market is the best system we know for allocating resources. If you know of a better way, let me know. Otherwise, by your logic we might as well start a huge funding program to subsidize personal trainers and nutritionists. After all, that could be cheaper than paying for the obesity epidemic.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: senseamp
It's a form of subsidy, not welfare. A subsidy for fruit and vegetable consumers.

Let's not nitpick the details here. Sure it's a subsidy. It's also a welfare program by most standards. Who cares? It's unnecessary either way and California can't pay for it.

Maybe, maybe not, we have legislators to decide this kind of stuff.

Yes, the market can handle this, the prices of fresh produce would rise, people would eat more processed easier to pick foods instead of fresh produce. That would be free market outcome.

You don't know that. People might spend more of their income for the same amount of fresh produce. And it's not like the currently cheap produce appears to be having any effect on the obesity problem. People CHOOSE to eat crap anyway.

More expensive fresh produce, fewer people will eat it. Instead, more people will eat junk and processed food, even worse obesity problem.

Of course the health implications would cost more than subsidizing AC for farm workers, but hey, who cares, it's free market, can't be wrong.

The free market is the best system we know for allocating resources. If you know of a better way, let me know. Otherwise, by your logic we might as well start a huge funding program to subsidize personal trainers and nutritionists. After all, that could be cheaper than paying for the obesity epidemic.

State is part of the free market economy, it can subsidize or tax certain activities to channel resource allocation to socially desirable ends. CA chooses to subsidize housing, some with such immense luxuries like AC, for farm workers to attract more labor to fields to keep our agricultural sector competitive and fresh produce affordable.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Can you please explain how humans survived 250,000 years without fire departments, highways, K-12 education, and other non-essential luxuries?

The reason the government pays for these other things is that there appears to be some unique advantage in doing so. And many reasonable people don't think the government even needs to pay for many of these things. It would be silly to have a competing network of private highways, for example. Similarly, people think that education is important for our democratic (not capitalized) society. I do too. On the other hand, it makes sense to have the market handle choice of luxuries and housing. In other words, it's not a problem having competing developers building housing in various parts of town and letting people choose between them.

Perhaps you should read up on the Program more Farmworker Housing


Part of it explains how these Workers are Migrants, moving all over the place from one Crop to the next. They only stay in any community for short periods each year. So the Market could build something, but it would spend most of its' time Vacant. Not really attractive for Private Builders/Developers.