Did Bush win Ohio in 2004?

[Anarchist420]

I was wondering what you thought. I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion, so that's why I was asking. I remember Kerry said he wasn't going to win OH, but maybe he said that because he suspected ballot fraud would be impossible to prove or that if he proved it, then it would consume his life.

Addition: I do think Kerry had no case but only because the Ohio legislature has the final say which was dominated by Republicans in 2004. Still, I'm not sure whether Bush actually won Ohio's popular vote which is why I brought this up for debate. At my high school, 2/3 to 3/4 of the faculty, staff, and students supported Kerry over Bush. That says a lot about Bush's unpopularity.

 

[Craig234]

I was wondering what you thought. I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion, so that's why I was asking. I remember Kerry said he wasn't going to win OH, but maybe he said that because he suspected ballot fraud would be impossible to prove or that if he proved it, then it would consume his life.

In this case, I think you have raised a good topic here.

There are a lot of good questions about that election.

The following book about the Congressional investigation led by John Conyers (I have a copy signed by him) has a lot of good info on the issue.

http://www.amazon.com/What-Went-Wron.../dp/089733535X

Here's the Amazon 'most helpful review' on the book:

In his book "Armed Madhouse..." author Greg Palast quotes Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin. "It's not the votes that count. It's who counts the votes." After you read the dry but factual 116 pages of this book, you will come to the inescapable conclusion that the election was stolen from presidential candidate John Kerry and given to Mr. Bush.

The book is divided into facts (what happened) and analysis (the motive and how it could have happened). It starts with Ohio's secretary of state, a republican, Kenneth Blackwell who promised to "fill in the blanks" regarding voting anomalies but has kept silent in the finest tradition of "political omerta." He has refused to initiate any investigations, and has tried his best to have the ballots destroyed.

Here's some of what Conyers uncovers:

Republican challengers were at every precinct causing massive voting delays. This is called caging, and it is illegal. Republican challengers targeted 97% of new voters in black areas. They only challenged 14% of new voters in white areas.

There were voting machine lockdowns preventing observation of ballot counts. This too is illegal.

There were flipped votes. Voters reported that they had voted for Kerry and watched their vote register for George Bush. These "glitches" were called "calibration problems."

The number of votes vs. voters. In many places the number of voter turn-out exceeded 100%. (?) In one case nearly 19,000 votes were added after all precincts reported.

There were repairs being made by the electronic voting machine company while the ballots were being recounted. This too is illegal.

In Ohio the exit polls which asked the people how they voted, showed that Kerry had won. Men and women voters gave a majority to Kerry. These polls are usually very accurate. So, how did exit polls that put Kerry ahead 52% to 48% turn around after the ballots were counted?

After reading this book, you can only arrive at one conclusion: There's something rotten in the state of Ohio.

I remember some of the issues. For example, the secretary of state was a highly partisan Republican pushing hard to use his office for a Bush win (like Florida in 2000). This is the same guy who found some obscure law about the paper thickness for voter registration forms he used to throw out new voter registrations after a big Democratic registration drive (the courts overturned him).

 

[Anarchist420]

Thanks Craig

 

[Nemesis 1]

OP you ask a good question . But you worded it badly. Its really not Voter fraud . Its election fraud . Just Like what occurred in 2008.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31kC9h9AeD4

 

[Jaskalas]

If you build it...

Thing about the federal government is all the centralized power contained therein. Many vile folks will lie, cheat, steal, and murder their way to seizing this power for themselves. You could solve all of this by absolving the position of the power it now holds.

Return power to the states, and suddenly the corruption in Washington elections looks a lot less palatable for folks to mess with.

If you continue to insist that the nation's wealth / power reside in a pair of hands, well, I'm telling you now those hands will always be stained red.

 

[MovingTarget]

Did Bush win Florida in 2000?

/lawnchair

Yeah, I went there. May as well preemptively open that can of worms.

 

[BoomerD]

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=5359

 

[Throckmorton]

So Bush hijacked two elections?

 

[TalonStrike]

I was wondering what you thought. I don't know enough about it to offer an opinion, so that's why I was asking. I remember Kerry said he wasn't going to win OH, but maybe he said that because he suspected ballot fraud would be impossible to prove or that if he proved it, then it would consume his life.

Addition: I do think Kerry had no case but only because the Ohio legislature has the final say which was dominated by Republicans in 2004. Still, I'm not sure whether Bush actually won Ohio's popular vote which is why I brought this up for debate. At my high school, 2/3 to 3/4 of the faculty, staff, and students supported Kerry over Bush. That says a lot about Bush's unpopularity.

What an unnecessary thread. Of course teachers support the Democrat. Does that honestly surprise you?

 

[Rainsford]

If you build it...

Thing about the federal government is all the centralized power contained therein. Many vile folks will lie, cheat, steal, and murder their way to seizing this power for themselves. You could solve all of this by absolving the position of the power it now holds.

Return power to the states, and suddenly the corruption in Washington elections looks a lot less palatable for folks to mess with.

If you continue to insist that the nation's wealth / power reside in a pair of hands, well, I'm telling you now those hands will always be stained red.

Yes, much better to keep the corruption at the state level

Seriously though, I don't see how that would be better. Power is a corruptive force, whether it's a few people with a lot of power or a lot of people with a little bit of power. Increased state power and decreased federal power may mean less corruption at the federal level...at the cost of more corruption at the state level.

Edit: I should note that states are plenty corrupt already. Many lobbying efforts are centered at the state level since it's easier to get states one at a time than to try for the federal government all at once.

 

[CallMeJoe]

Yes, much better to keep the corruption at the state level...

I love how the same posters who bitch about the corruption of the Illinois legislature want these same corrupt legislators to pick two Senators.

 

[Craig234]

So Bush hijacked two elections?

No question about 2000, really. 2004 has good questions/evidence there were problems.

It's more accurate to say the elections 'were stolen for Bush' than that he stole them.

There's no evidence I know of that he had any involvement or was informed about it.

He just happily took the benefits.

All we know that Jeb told him is that he 'promised George would win Florida'.