Did AMD miss a big opportunity in 2017?

[Mockingbird]

OK, so now Core i5 7400 ends up being $30 more expensive than Core i3 7100.

P.S. I corrected my typo of "$249.99" to the proper amount of "$429.99" in post #123.

I am now going to show you the art of confirmation bias and cherry-picking.

Let's look at these two PCs.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883163365

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883101530

The Acer is $10 more than the Dell, but the Acer has twice as much memory and comes with a keyboard and mouse.

Assuming that we know that the 4GB DDR4 extra memory and the mouse and keyboard costs more than $10.

This would lead me to conclude that the Core i3-7100 costs more than the Core i5-7400.

My point is: You can't just look at the price of the PC and determine how much the processor costs.

 

[cbn]

I am now going to show you the art of confirmation bias and cherry-picking.

Let's look at these two PCs.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883163365

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883101530

The Acer is $10 more than the Dell, but the Acer has twice as much memory and comes with a keyboard and mouse.

Assuming that we know that the 4GB DDR4 extra memory and the mouse and keyboard costs more than $10.

This would lead me to conclude that the Core i3-7100 costs more than the Core i5-7400.

My point is: You can't just look at the price of the PC and determine how much the processor costs.

I definitely understand about the cherry picking.

But if looking at groups of PCs, Core i7-7770 will be more expensive than Core i5-7500 which is more expensive than Core i5 7400 which is more expensive than Core i3 7100, etc.

 

[Mockingbird]

I definitely understand about the cherry picking.

But if looking at groups of PCs, Core i7-7770 will be more expensive than Core i5-7500 which is more expensive than Core i5 7400 which is more expensive than Core i3 7100, etc.

You don't have background in science, do you?

When conducting experiments, you have two types of variables: dependent variables and independent variables.

You change only ONE independent variable while holding all the other independent variables constant.

You then observe the change in the dependent variables.

The problem with your examples is that you have changed too many independent variables to make any logical conclusion.

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In this case, the independent variable that you should be changing is the processor/chipset while holding all other independent variables (brand, series, case, memory, hard drive, etc.) the same.

The dependent variable would be the price.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

It's not even that hard either.

For example, HP sells many desktops that are literally the same except for the processors/chipsets.

http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/desktops/hp-desktop-tower-349511--1#!

http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/desktops/pavilion-desktop-349512--1#!

 

[cbn]

http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/desktops/pavilion-desktop-349512--1#!

Good to see you find a A8-9600 desktop $30 cheaper than a Core i3 7100 desktop if bought direct from HP.

Is this same relationship holding true at retailers though?

 

[Mockingbird]

Good to see you find a A8-9600 desktop $30 cheaper than a Core i3 7100 desktop if bought direct from HP.

Is this same relationship holding true at retailers though?

You would be hard pressed to find direct comparisons at retailers because retailers stock far fewer configurations than do manufactures and retailers also tend to avoid stocking too many similar models.

In fact, precisely because the manufactures stock far more configurations than do retailers, that it is much better to compare prices from manufactures than prices from retailers.

 

[TurtleCrusher]

Four reasons
1) you need much better (battery life) and much more complex (due to the iGPU) power management ON TOP of an entirely new CPU, that takes a lot of extra work
2) a mobile part needs a proven CPU design and track record for the OEM's to award you systems
3) enthusiasts are one of the largest and most profitable customers for AMD, and those mostly want high end desktop parts for their gaming rig -->first priority
4) they can serve the lucrative client / server side with the same desktop part

Look, I get your frustration. I'm waiting impatiently for RR for over a year to update my SFF from the stone age. But a desktop RR part is a niche product that only makes sense after they release their mobile parts. I'm afraid we have to wait till april-may for the desktop APU's and like you I will probably jump on them day 1.

Is it disappointing? Yes. Is It understandable? Entirely.

Also, to prepare you for your next disappointment: I would be very surprised if we get more than four APU flavours for AM4: high end / lower end low power (35W) & high end/ lower end medium power (65W).

If I can get an ITX/SFF 65w Ryzen 1200 level CPU with an iGPU that's as fast as my R9 270, I'd buy instantly. Are they coming out with anything close?

 

[Qwertilot]

Not in that sort of power budget, no - you are trying to go from 150w to 30-40w after all 🙂 Its slightly scary that NV probably could! AMD might get roughly there with another die shrink.

 

[Topweasel]

If I can get an ITX/SFF 65w Ryzen 1200 level CPU with an iGPU that's as fast as my R9 270, I'd buy instantly. Are they coming out with anything close?

Better on the CPU, worse on the Graphics but it is closing in, specially if you spend an arm and a leg on memory. A 11CU Vega with DDR4 4000 would be quite competitive (~700 stream units vs. 1200 on the 270). The CPU would be closer to a 1400 since it will have SMT. Considering the RR followup is still projected to have 4 cores, when 7nm (M'19-L'19) comes they might double up on GCU's and still be smaller than RR. If that is the case in all but memory bandwidth it would be stronger.

 

[cbn]

http://store.hp.com/us/en/mdp/desktops/pavilion-desktop-349512--1#!

Good to see you find a A8-9600 desktop $30 cheaper than a Core i3 7100 desktop if bought direct from HP.

Is this same relationship holding true at retailers though?

You would be hard pressed to find direct comparisons at retailers because retailers stock far fewer configurations than do manufactures and retailers also tend to avoid stocking too many similar models.

In fact, precisely because the manufactures stock far more configurations than do retailers, that it is much better to compare prices from manufactures than prices from retailers.

Looks like the factory direct sale is gone now.

With that mentioned, I did find two similar HP desktops (Core i3 7100 and A10-9700 APU) on sale at Best Buy (around the time of Black Friday) for about the same price delta as we see with the retail box processors.

Right now though it is gone though---> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/searchpage.jsp?cp=1&searchType=search&id=pcat17071&type=page&ks=960&st=categoryid$pcmcat212600050008&sc=Global&sp=+currentprice skuidsaas&list=y&usc=All Categories&nrp=15&iht=n&seeAll=&browsedCategory=pcmcat212600050008&qp=brand_facet=Brand~HP^condition_facet=Condition~New

So it is possible for some* AMD OEM pre-builts to be priced the same way (at Best Buy**) as we see with the retail box processors. However, one problem I noticed was there were so many more Intel Core i3 boxes to choose from (and thus the chance of getting a sale price was greater). In fact, at the time I noticed the HP A10 box being priced competitively with the HP Core i3 box there was a (very similar) Dell Tower with Core i3 (and 8GB RAM/1TB) for $50 less (EDIT: Link to model here, it is still on sale)......but there was no AMD version of the same Dell box.

In a nutshell, it appears AMD is outnumbered in OEM desktops. (This makes sense considering AMD is such a small company). With this noted, I do believe a bigger problem AMD faces (in desktop) is one of purpose with these APUs. (FirePro APU would be the only exception I can think of).

*A12 APU vs. Core i5 7400 in HP Towers currently favors the Core i5 7400--> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/compare?skus=6109324,5760710,6149440&url=/site/hp-pavilion-desktop-intel-core-i5-8gb-memory-1tb-hard-drive-twinkle-black/6149440.p?skuId=6149440 (Note I did include a recently released HP Core i5 7400 model for comparison)

**I didn't notice any other retailers (besides Best Buy) that offered similar desktops with AMD pricing on par with Intel (going by retail box pricing).