Dharun Ravi Found Guilty in Rutgers Trial

[blankslate]

Maybe the guy who actually did the killing (of himself)?

That's the thing he might not have done it if Ravi hadn't conducted his webcam shenanigans...

I've seen it compared to something that might be in a movie... well that's all well and good.
For a movie, not real life.

Even if Clementi didn't commit suicide he'd still be dealing with the ridicule that Rav's actions instigated.

Remember He was convicted and *could* face 10 years. It doesn't mean that he will.

Additionally he was offered a fairly generous plea deal after they turned down the first one.

No jail time probation and avoiding deportation.

I'm sorry to the people who think the prosecutor overstepped his bound... what did you expect a third offer of just dropping the charges. Ravi did do something terrible to his roommate. While the roommate was the one to end his life, it certainly didn't help that Ravi ridiculed him and invited others to take part in the ridicule.

 

[Infohawk]

The story was originally that:

1. Clementi was taped and it played on the internet

2. Gay sex was taped

3. This was Clementi being 'outed'

Since #1- #3 appear to be clearly false, I seriously doubt this incidence was responsible in any meaningful way for the guy committing suicide.

It doesn't matter what the original "story" was. What matters are the laws of the State of New Jersey and the evidence before the jury. Ravi spied on his roommate. This was invasion of privacy and was illegal. Ravi intended to humiliate his roommate. He talked about it in the dorm and broadcast the experience to the world on twitter. The fact that Clementi was gay was obviously a component of the crime. People are asking whether the crime would punished if he hadn't committed suicide. Okay, would Ravi have acted the way he did if his roommate wasn't gay? I don't think so.

Reading the New Yorker article, it seems clear to me that Clementi was not only affected by what Ravi did, but perhaps even more so by seeing how his peers were reacting on twitter. People didn't seem to have a problem with it. That must have been very depressing.

The sad thing is if the kids at Rutgers had told Ravi he was being a giant douche, he might have felt peer pressure to be more mature. But no, apparently the common attitude was similar to Senseamp's: "lol dude it's just a prank." That's what Clementi's dad is getting at: be kind to your fellow man. Do not work against people. So very basic and alarming that people don't get it.

Hopefully this will serve as a lesson to the unethical and unkind people out there that there are repercussions for being a douche or for tolerating douches.

 

[Fern]

-snip-

Reading the New Yorker article, it seems clear to me that Clementi was not only affected by what Ravi did, but perhaps even more so by seeing how his peers were reacting on twitter. People didn't seem to have a problem with it. That must have been very depressing.

I'm going by what his family, specifically his father, has said. Others are free to choose a different source etc.

Fern

 

[Infohawk]

I'm going by what his family, specifically his father, has said. Others are free to choose a different source etc.

Fern

What did the father say that supports anything you said?

 

[Fern]

What did the father say that supports anything you said?

I posted it above already. Also there was a thread on this in OT a few weeks ago that had this info with links.

Basically, his father said he cannot connect this incident and his son's suicide.

Additionally, Clementi's older brother was long openly gay. Clementi had already discussed his feeling about perhaps being gay with his father and brother. I got the impression from reading his family's remarks that it's unlikely him being seen kissing another guy was any kind of big deal.

However, in the OT thread is was claimed there was some kind of note Clementi left behind. If the note indicated the web cam was a big deal, I would change my mind.

I would also note that my understanding is that his parents/family were not made aware of the note's contents at the time of their remarks.

Fern

 

[micrometers]

People get deported for non-violent and even victimless felonies. Even if he's not deported after serving his sentence, he could be denied his green card when it comes up for renewal due to having a felony rap sheet and deported then. You are going to tell me the prosecutor is going to give a sh!t after he gets the guilty plea that he is after? Even if he does, he's not going to be making that call, a judge or immigration official will be.

I'm sure that people get deported for like embezzlement or malpractice or other white collar crimes, but you will likely not see a prosecutor writing a supporting letter in such cases.

 

[Infohawk]

I posted it above already. Also there was a thread on this in OT a few weeks ago that had this info with links.

Basically, his father said he cannot connect this incident and his son's suicide.

Additionally, Clementi's older brother was long openly gay. Clementi had already discussed his feeling about perhaps being gay with his father and brother. I got the impression from reading his family's remarks that it's unlikely him being seen kissing another guy was any kind of big deal.

However, in the OT thread is was claimed there was some kind of note Clementi left behind. If the note indicated the web cam was a big deal, I would change my mind.

I would also note that my understanding is that his parents/family were not made aware of the note's contents at the time of their remarks.

Fern

I don't know how any of that makes you conclude this was an unfair conviction. The guy was not charged with murder. You are arguing against strawmen. The issue is not whether he was outed to his family. The main issue is whether Ravi spied on him. The homophobic aspect is aggravating factor for which there was evidence.

 

[micrometers]

I don't know how any of that makes you conclude this was an unfair conviction. The guy was not charged with murder. You are arguing against strawmen. The issue is not whether he was outed to his family. The main issue is whether Ravi spied on him. The homophobic aspect is aggravating factor for which there was evidence.

The fact that CLementi viewed Ravi's twitter feed like 34 times before killing himself probably was a deciding factor I believe. Nothing sucks more than knowing that people are talking about you and mocking you. It might have been possible that all 4 years at Rutgers this story might have followed him around, who knows?

 

[Fern]

Well, we have a different opinion.

I'm not arguing against strawmen. As I said, I think it's too much of a sentence for a dumbazz college prank.

Plenty of other people have been, are being now, and in the future will be 'spied on' in college pranks. They will not be given numerous years in prison for it either. IMO, had this story not been overhyped with false info, this Ravi jerk wouldn't either

Fern

 

[Infohawk]

Well, we have a different opinion.

I'm not arguing against strawmen. As I said, I think it's too much of a sentence for a dumbazz college prank.

Plenty of other people have been, are being now, and in the future will be 'spied on' in college pranks. They will not be given numerous years in prison for it either. IMO, had this story not been overhyped with false info, this Ravi jerk wouldn't either

Fern

It doesn't matter if it's an opinion or not. Do you have evidence for thinking the trial was unfair? What evidence? Some stuff in the media that the jury was probably not exposed to?

Hopefully people will realize these sort of pranks will get you in trouble. Again, it's alarming how many people in this thread don't think it's a big deal. How would you like it if someone tried to tape your teenage daughter having sex?

 

[Infohawk]

The fact that CLementi viewed Ravi's twitter feed like 34 times before killing himself probably was a deciding factor I believe. Nothing sucks more than knowing that people are talking about you and mocking you. It might have been possible that all 4 years at Rutgers this story might have followed him around, who knows?

Yes, I think it's obvious that was probably the causal factor. It's not like suicidal people kill themselves in a vacuum. They often feel alone and unworthy. The fact that he was socially awkward and trying to enjoy his life at his new school and express himself sexually and then some douchebag and hundreds of people mocking him and the other students not being outraged by the douchebag's behavior was probably devastating.

 

[Fern]

-snip-

Hopefully people will realize these sort of pranks will get you in trouble. Again, it's alarming how many people in this thread don't think it's a big deal. How would you like it if someone tried to tape your teenage daughter having sex?

Sex?

It was a kiss.

That's it. Not sex.

Fern

 

[Craig234]

Sex?

It was a kiss.

That's it. Not sex.

Fern

It's an analogy. Straight sex, gay kiss, both 'sensational' privacy violations here.

 

[Infohawk]

Sex?

It was a kiss.

That's it. Not sex.

Fern

Way to dodge the real issue... Whatever you clearly don't have any evidence that this was an unfair trial.

 

[DCal430]

That's my understanding as well.

Furthermore:

1. Clementi wasn't 'outed'. His older brother is openly gay. Tyler had already spoken to both his brother and father about his own feelings.

2. I read remarks by his father saying he himself could not connect the suicide to this incident. Too many people seem to think Clementi was 'outed' and therefore committed suicide. There was supposed to be some kind suicide note, but I've heard what info, if any, it contained.

3. There was no sex observed by anyone. Clementi's brother said there was kiss, that's all.

It's a little difficult to know what's actually true given so many variants, but I'm going to believe Clementi's family. If so, this case has been horribly distorted, and makes me wonder why?

The story was originally that:

1. Clementi was taped and it played on the internet

2. Gay sex was taped

3. This was Clementi being 'outed'

Since #1- #3 appear to be clearly false, I seriously doubt this incidence was responsible in any meaningful way for the guy committing suicide.

Hence, seems like a very unfair conviction/sentence for azzhole prank by a stupid college kid.

Fern

1. Number one is ONLY partially false, he and molly did IN FACT set up the camera to record the next incident, and they invited people on the internet to watch on MOCK him. His was goal to record and play it over the web so people could mock him for being gay. Clementi committed suicide after he saw the hate filled twitter and and the sick plan that Ravi and his friends were planning. He had planned and was intending to cause great emotional harm to Clementi this is a fact. He then deleted this evidence on twitter when and posted a fake apology when he found out about the suicide.

 

[micrometers]

It really was to only his twitter followers, who probably are just a bunch of HS friends.

Now, with social networks it is possible for shit to quickly go out of hand, so that was a bit reckless.

But look, there's like a whole genre of "revenge porn" where ex boyfriends post public videos of them and their ex having sex. That is directed to the general public with the aim of shaming. Ravi did not do that. It is possible that if something truly saucy happened then it would get out in a reckless manner, true, but not entirely maliciously.

at the same time, Clementi apparently posted videos of himself masturbating on cam4.com. So it's not like it was unprecedented for the guy...

 

[DCal430]

It really was to only his twitter followers, who probably are just a bunch of HS friends.

Now, with social networks it is possible for shit to quickly go out of hand, so that was a bit reckless.

But look, there's like a whole genre of "revenge porn" where ex boyfriends post public videos of them and their ex having sex. That is directed to the general public with the aim of shaming. Ravi did not do that. It is possible that if something truly saucy happened then it would get out in a reckless manner, true, but not entirely maliciously.

at the same time, Clementi apparently posted videos of himself masturbating on cam4.com. So it's not like it was unprecedented for the guy...

It clearly was to shame him, the whole premise was for people to watch and laugh at him.

 

[micrometers]

It clearly was to shame him, the whole premise was for people to watch and laugh at him.

It was a joke for Ravi and his friends to laugh about. It wasn't meant for wider distribution. Ravi was reckless in that his friends might send it out.

And frankly, I think it's kind of funny.

 

[JEDIYoda]

It was a joke for Ravi and his friends to laugh about. It wasn't meant for wider distribution. Ravi was reckless in that his friends might send it out. -- you have no clue do you??

And frankly, I think it's kind of funny.

Kinda funny??? are your opinions really based on ignorance??

 

[micrometers]

Kinda funny??? are your opinions really based on ignorance??

Did you watch Meet the Parents? That was pretty funny.

 

[between]

at the same time, Clementi apparently posted videos of himself masturbating on cam4.com. So it's not like it was unprecedented for the guy...

I doubt he posted those videos under his own name... And I doubt they showed his face... I see a difference between him anonymously posting something which he couldn't easily be identified from, versus someone else spying on him without his permission, then reporting what he saw on twitter or to friends...

It's sad that a shy tenager had to resort to sleazy web sites to explore his sexuality... But that was probably his only option. I seriously doubt he was happily out, and dating other boys his own age, during high school.

I don't know why you are trying to minimise Ravi's actions. Even if you set aside the sexual politics/ homophobia issues, there is still the fact that Ravi attempted on two occasions to spy on someone, using a camera, when he had reason to suspect that person was going to be sexually intimate with someone. That is not cool.

I am also amazed that Ravi hasn't offered an apology or explantion to Clemeti's parents. It's like deep down, he doesn't feel he did anything wrong.

 

[Infohawk]

It really was to only his twitter followers, who probably are just a bunch of HS friends.
...

But look, there's like a whole genre of "revenge porn" where ex boyfriends post public videos of them and their ex having sex. That is directed to the general public with the aim of shaming. Ravi did not do that. It is possible that if something truly saucy happened then it would get out in a reckless manner, true, but not entirely maliciously.

at the same time, Clementi apparently posted videos of himself masturbating on cam4.com. So it's not like it was unprecedented for the guy...

Talking about something on twitter is publicly broadcasting it. So yeah, it is directed to the general public. And even if he didn't it really wouldn't matter. He was trying to humiliate him in his school, which is basically his community. That seems to be what got to Clementi.

I doubt he posted those videos under his own name... And I doubt they showed his face... I see a difference between him anonymously posting something which he couldn't easily be identified from, versus someone else spying on him without his permission, then reporting what he saw on twitter or to friends...

Right.

It's sad that a shy tenager had to resort to sleazy web sites to explore his sexuality... But that was probably his only option. I seriously doubt he was happily out, and dating other boys his own age, during high school.

Sexuality in gay culture is more promiscuous than in straight culture. That is why straight guys joke that it would be so much easier if they were gay. Anyway, imagine if he had been a straight guy who brought home a random woman (maybe even older). Ravi would have probably thought it was legit. People would have thought he was a desperate loser for trying to watch it.

 

[werepossum]

You don't have any information on "how" his family raised him. Secondly, there is no doubt that his apparent homophobia was part of his growing up in the US; where it runs rampant and people have been murdered for it; thanks to that corpse-worshiping cult known as christianity.

In fact, one would find it strange that a college freshman, gay or otherwise, hooks up with a THIRTY YEAR OLD person. That would be an immediate red flag in any place, even if the encounter was heterosexual in nature. It's different if they were college mates and decided to hook up.

Knowing that this guy was born in India and is a first gen. immigrant to the US; it is almost certain that his parents never spoke to him about sexuality, hetero or otherwise. That is something Indian parents don't do, unlike the sex-crazed perverts in the west. If one can claim he was homophobic, he most certainly learned it from his peers during his formative years here in the US. Ravi was sent to college to study. He was an idiot for engaging in this type of tomfoolery.



Uhh.. his life IS destroyed. Clementi doesn't have a life; he deprived himself of it. Ravi will have to go great lengths to obfuscate this conviction even in his native India to get a job and of course, when it comes to marriage. As others have already said, this incident was the straw on the camel's back for Clementi; it is highly unlikely that a single incident led him to commit atmahatya (suicide).

I don't know from where Ravi got his opinions on homosexuality. And I don't care. I know lots of very good people who have a great problem with homosexuality, as is their right. Again, my problem was with Ravi's being a dick who spied on his roommate to mock him and humiliate him, not with how he feels about homosexuality. Clementi's sexual partners, appropriate or not, are absolutely none of Ravi's business. I don't care whether Ravi's parents made him anti-homosexual or not; I merely care that they failed to make him not a dick.

If you find yourself with a gay roommate and that bothers you, the correct path is to inform your roommate that "Nothing personal, but I don't want to be around that kind of behavior so I'm requesting another roommate." Then you request another roommate. You do not attempt to humiliate your roommate. You do not place secret cameras for your amusement, you do not spread word about his private and consensual behavior, you do not gather evidence and like-minded people to mock him. THAT is dickery.

If I have a problem with a roommate because he is gay or black or Indian or whatever, that is MY problem. My roommate is merely being what G-d intended for him to be, be that gay or black or Indian or whatever, and I have the obligation to either learn to deal with MY problem, or adjust my environment so that I am not faced with that problem and can therefore enjoy my life. Punishing others for MY problem, for failing to live their lives to my satisfaction, is the act of a dick. And that should be unacceptable in our society.

 

[RedString]

I don't know the details of the case - but if the kid who committed suicide did so whatsoever because of the invasion of privacy and the public humiliation it entailed, then yes it's a hate crime. Why? Because I don't think the guy would have set the webcam up if the kid was screwing a female. This tells me that he did what he did firstly because he was a homosexual.

 

[micrometers]

I don't know the details of the case - but if the kid who committed suicide did so whatsoever because of the invasion of privacy and the public humiliation it entailed, then yes it's a hate crime. Why? Because I don't think the guy would have set the webcam up if the kid was screwing a female. This tells me that he did what he did firstly because he was a homosexual.

yes he would. that would be so very funny also.