Detroit Auto Show

[BarneyFife]

I went to the auto show this morning and again the Detroit auto makers are falling prey to stupidity. You go through the Honda section and you see a 23k Accord and a 17k Civic. You go through Ford and you see a 30k Ford Fusion, 35k Ford Taurus, etc...

How can they compete when they are bringing overpriced cars to the show? Show us the 22k Fusion, the $25k Taurus.

Gm wasn't fairing much better with the budget car being a 17k Aveo.

 

[masteryoda34]

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that US automakers pay their union employees ~$70/hour versus ~$45/hour for non-union foreign automakers. ($$'s include total benefits.)

 

[Mr.IncrediblyBored]

Yes, that's why the Detroit 3 are flailing. Because they bring well-optioned top of the line versions of their cars to auto shows...

The Detroit 3's issues are numerous and complicated. It doesn't help that the buying public is ignorant and full of bias -- see the retarded OP. FYI, the entry level 2010 Fusion starts under $20k. Same as the Camry, Accord, etc. And for what it's worth, the local dealers bring an example from every trim level to the Cleveland auto show every year. So the public has a chance to sit in everything from the base SE to higher SEL.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: KnightBreed
Yes, that's why the Detroit 3 are flailing. Because they bring well-optioned top of the line versions of their cars to auto shows...

The Detroit 3's issues are numerous and complicated. It doesn't help that the buying public is ignorant and full of bias -- see the retarded OP. FYI, the entry level 2010 Fusion starts under $20k. Same as the Camry, Accord, etc. And for what it's worth, the local dealers bring an example from every trim level to the Cleveland auto show every year. So the public has a chance to sit in everything from the base SE to higher SEL.

this

 

[Mermaidman]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
I went to the auto show this morning and again the Detroit auto makers are falling prey to stupidity. You go through the Honda section and you see a 23k Accord and a 17k Civic. You go through Ford and you see a 30k Ford Fusion, 35k Ford Taurus, etc...

How can they compete when they are bringing overpriced cars to the show? Show us the 22k Fusion, the $25k Taurus.

Gm wasn't fairing much better with the budget car being a 17k Aveo.

 

[LikeLinus]

I went to the auto show this morning and again and Honda is falling prey to stupidity. You go through the Honda section and you see a prototype Honda Pilot. You then go through Ford and you see a 30k Ford Fusion, 35k Ford Taurus, etc...

How can they compete when they are bringing cars that haven't even been produced to the show? Seriously, what a stupid idea of bringing a car to a CAR SHOW. I mean we all know everyone buys their cars there and auto makers shouldn't show off their good models. Everyone knows they should bring their cheapest most stripped down cars and try to sell those only.

Honda is just stupid.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that US automakers pay their union employees ~$70/hour versus ~$45/hour for non-union foreign automakers. ($$'s include total benefits.)

This has been debunked many times.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that US automakers pay their union employees ~$70/hour versus ~$45/hour for non-union foreign automakers. ($$'s include total benefits.)

This has been debunked many times.

IIRC it's cost per hour per employee. that doesn't mean the employees average $70/hour (which so many people fail to perceive).

in any case, GM's costs are enormous. that cannot be argued.

 

[iamwiz82]

More interesting to me was the utter cheapness of every Japanese car I touched. I think that I could bend the door of the FJ Cruiser with my hand, it's that thin, and it felt like the rotating toggles for the vents were barely mounted since I could wiggle them in every direction. The Subarus were covered in hard plastic across the entire interior.

I have to say also that Toyota and Honda had the most boring exhibits possible. Bland cars as far as the eye could see.

 

[CrackRabbit]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
More interesting to me was the utter cheapness of every Japanese car I touched. I think that I could bend the door of the FJ Cruiser with my hand, it's that thin, and it felt like the rotating toggles for the vents were barely mounted since I could wiggle them in every direction. The Subarus were covered in hard plastic across the entire interior.

I have to say also that Toyota and Honda had the most boring exhibits possible. Bland cars as far as the eye could see.

I agree I was completely shocked by the interior of a Subaru Impreza. My 6 year old Focus has a better interior.

The interiors that I liked were actually the Ford Fusions, The Kia Rondo, and the Hyundai Veracruz.

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that US automakers pay their union employees ~$70/hour versus ~$45/hour for non-union foreign automakers. ($$'s include total benefits.)

This has been debunked many times.

IIRC it's cost per hour per employee. that doesn't mean the employees average $70/hour (which so many people fail to perceive).

in any case, GM's costs are enormous. that cannot be argued.

This may be true, but you can't go around quoting that to people that don't understand what legacy costs are. It ends up being misleading. I'm sure if Honda/Toyota/Hyundai were around long enough in the US that they would have a nice big retiree pool as well. You cannot compare this to Japan which is much more of a welfare state than the US is. Apples and oranges.

That being said, I have a feeling that the detroit cars aren't going to cost that much. It is like the markup just prior to a sale to make the discounts seem deeper. Besides, with the current market, everyone may be crunched to raise prices.

What America needs is a freeway capable sedan right now that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Anyone working 40hr/wk should be able to afford one. IIRC, $13k+ for a 4-banger just doesn't cut it. A true affordable car would be half that price.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that US automakers pay their union employees ~$70/hour versus ~$45/hour for non-union foreign automakers. ($$'s include total benefits.)

This has been debunked many times.

IIRC it's cost per hour per employee. that doesn't mean the employees average $70/hour (which so many people fail to perceive).

in any case, GM's costs are enormous. that cannot be argued.

This may be true, but you can't go around quoting that to people that don't understand what legacy costs are. It ends up being misleading. I'm sure if Honda/Toyota/Hyundai were around long enough in the US that they would have a nice big retiree pool as well. You cannot compare this to Japan which is much more of a welfare state than the US is. Apples and oranges.

That being said, I have a feeling that the detroit cars aren't going to cost that much. It is like the markup just prior to a sale to make the discounts seem deeper. Besides, with the current market, everyone may be crunched to raise prices.

What America needs is a freeway capable sedan right now that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Anyone working 40hr/wk should be able to afford one. IIRC, $13k+ for a 4-banger just doesn't cut it. A true affordable car would be half that price.

good luck doing that and meeting safety standards in addition to having a marketable vehicle.

only econoboxes like the versa ($9995 for the super base model, i think) get that low. if you want even a reasonable amount of passenger room, you're going to be paying ~15+

 

[iamwiz82]

With the amount of parts and engineering that go into vehicles today, the reliability and cost that we receive, as it is, shocks me.

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that US automakers pay their union employees ~$70/hour versus ~$45/hour for non-union foreign automakers. ($$'s include total benefits.)

Huh? I fail to see the correlation to the topic at hand.

 

[EvilYoda]

This is the first time in 15 years that I've missed the Detroit show. You might've met some of my former coworkers there too

 

[BarneyFife]

When the economy is in the toilet, you bring cheap cars to the show. Its not 1998 anymore. The brilliance of Ford is to bring out a $35k Taurus. Props go to Toyota/Honda for realizing what is going on around them and bringing in the base models. Ford can continue to bring out overpriced cars and then play games with employee pricing and offer deals that nobody can qualify for unless they are a 30 year ford employee with 12 years in Vietnam and 2 sons named Kevin and Joey.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82
More interesting to me was the utter cheapness of every Japanese car I touched. I think that I could bend the door of the FJ Cruiser with my hand, it's that thin, and it felt like the rotating toggles for the vents were barely mounted since I could wiggle them in every direction. The Subarus were covered in hard plastic across the entire interior.

I have to say also that Toyota and Honda had the most boring exhibits possible. Bland cars as far as the eye could see.

Nothing could top the BYD. That red car that was open was a joke. They can't sell that thing for more than 5k.

 

[Ronstang]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
When the economy is in the toilet, you bring cheap cars to the show. Its not 1998 anymore. The brilliance of Ford is to bring out a $35k Taurus. Props go to Toyota/Honda for realizing what is going on around them and bringing in the base models. Ford can continue to bring out overpriced cars and then play games with employee pricing and offer deals that nobody can qualify for unless they are a 30 year ford employee with 12 years in Vietnam and 2 sons named Kevin and Joey.

You actually have it backwards. People go to the auto show to see the glitz. They WANT to see and sit in the top of the line of a vehicle, even if they plan on getting the base model. There are usually base models there in the back away from the main display but that area is not as busy as where the fully optioned cars are being shown off. They go to the dealer to check out the base models if that is what they want to buy. The auto show is entertainment, it is a fun afternoon to see what is available so you know what brands you plan on going to in order to test drive something.

I guess the Japanese have it backwards just like you. Every time I go to the auto show the Hondas/Toyotas are the most boring bland vehicles there.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
When the economy is in the toilet, you bring cheap cars to the show. Its not 1998 anymore. The brilliance of Ford is to bring out a $35k Taurus. Props go to Toyota/Honda for realizing what is going on around them and bringing in the base models. Ford can continue to bring out overpriced cars and then play games with employee pricing and offer deals that nobody can qualify for unless they are a 30 year ford employee with 12 years in Vietnam and 2 sons named Kevin and Joey.

:roll:

First people complain that the build quality and amenities of the domestics isn't up to snuff. Then they complain that when they bring them to the table they don't compare to the stripped down bare bones foreign models. When you've decided to not like something no matter what it's hard to change you're opinion.

The point of an auto show is to show off the latest and greatest. You bring all your new ideas to the table. The bare bones models don't really have anything interesting, why would you be waving it around and showing it off?

 

[MovingTarget]

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that US automakers pay their union employees ~$70/hour versus ~$45/hour for non-union foreign automakers. ($$'s include total benefits.)

This has been debunked many times.

IIRC it's cost per hour per employee. that doesn't mean the employees average $70/hour (which so many people fail to perceive).

in any case, GM's costs are enormous. that cannot be argued.

This may be true, but you can't go around quoting that to people that don't understand what legacy costs are. It ends up being misleading. I'm sure if Honda/Toyota/Hyundai were around long enough in the US that they would have a nice big retiree pool as well. You cannot compare this to Japan which is much more of a welfare state than the US is. Apples and oranges.

That being said, I have a feeling that the detroit cars aren't going to cost that much. It is like the markup just prior to a sale to make the discounts seem deeper. Besides, with the current market, everyone may be crunched to raise prices.

What America needs is a freeway capable sedan right now that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Anyone working 40hr/wk should be able to afford one. IIRC, $13k+ for a 4-banger just doesn't cut it. A true affordable car would be half that price.

good luck doing that and meeting safety standards in addition to having a marketable vehicle.

only econoboxes like the versa ($9995 for the super base model, i think) get that low. if you want even a reasonable amount of passenger room, you're going to be paying ~15+

From an engineering/process standpoint, it can be done. It would be difficult, but it is possible. The biggest possible hurdle would be marketing. People are too used to having all the bells and whistles in addition to all those who purchase a car on dash-stroking criteria alone. This is why a lot of cars produced elsewhere in the world have no equivalent in the US - because the marketing guys believe "we don't want it". I reject that reasoning...

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: MovingTarget

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: masteryoda34
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that US automakers pay their union employees ~$70/hour versus ~$45/hour for non-union foreign automakers. ($$'s include total benefits.)

This has been debunked many times.

IIRC it's cost per hour per employee. that doesn't mean the employees average $70/hour (which so many people fail to perceive).

in any case, GM's costs are enormous. that cannot be argued.

This may be true, but you can't go around quoting that to people that don't understand what legacy costs are. It ends up being misleading. I'm sure if Honda/Toyota/Hyundai were around long enough in the US that they would have a nice big retiree pool as well. You cannot compare this to Japan which is much more of a welfare state than the US is. Apples and oranges.

That being said, I have a feeling that the detroit cars aren't going to cost that much. It is like the markup just prior to a sale to make the discounts seem deeper. Besides, with the current market, everyone may be crunched to raise prices.

What America needs is a freeway capable sedan right now that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. Anyone working 40hr/wk should be able to afford one. IIRC, $13k+ for a 4-banger just doesn't cut it. A true affordable car would be half that price.

They're out there, but they're called motorcycles. The 70's are long gone brother.

 

[BarneyFife]

If you want glitz and glamour, you can go to the Maybach or Lamborghini display. If I was Ford, I'd be embarassed to bring out a Taurus with leather and a nav and put a price tag of $35k. Or a Fusion with leather/Nav and sell it for $30k.

As someone brought up in this thread, someone needs to build a basic family Sedan for under $15k that someone making $13 hour can afford. Most of the car prices at the auto show were ridiculous.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
If you want glitz and glamour, you can go to the Maybach or Lamborghini display. If I was Ford, I'd be embarassed to bring out a Taurus with leather and a nav and put a price tag of $35k. Or a Fusion with leather/Nav and sell it for $30k.

As someone brought up in this thread, someone needs to build a basic family Sedan for under $15k that someone making $13 hour can afford. Most of the car prices at the auto show were ridiculous.

It appears that Ford had THREE Fusions at the auto show. One of them was the lower end made to compete with the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. The other was the new sports edition and the last one was the Fusion Hybrid.

http://autoshows.ford.com/259/...usion-debuts-versions/

You're obviously cherry picking the information to make the US Automakers look bad. Ford didn't just bring one over priced car, they had several versions and price range vehicles of the same model. Not sure why you failed to mention that, but I highly doubt all three cost 30K.

Also, the Taurus they showed is a 2010 model that is not in production yet. It was a SHOW CAR. It's meant to just show what the model will look like when it's available for sale to the public. Only an idiot would think they only have one price and that Ford would show up with a stripped down model at a CAR SHOW.

They are not looking to make actual sales and I think any intelligent person wouldn't believe that Ford or any other vendor should bring strip down versions of their cars. Everyone with half a brain knows you can go to a dealership and get a cheaper model than the ones they display at car shows and on commercials.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
If you want glitz and glamour, you can go to the Maybach or Lamborghini display. If I was Ford, I'd be embarassed to bring out a Taurus with leather and a nav and put a price tag of $35k. Or a Fusion with leather/Nav and sell it for $30k.

As someone brought up in this thread, someone needs to build a basic family Sedan for under $15k that someone making $13 hour can afford. Most of the car prices at the auto show were ridiculous.

see the uber econoboxes.

 

[ArizonaSteve]

Agree with the people above who say that Toyota and Honda have the most boring, bland cars imaginable. Whatever happened to the Toyota Supra? And what's with Honda getting rid of the S2000 after this year?

Screw 'em.