Despite Fewer Lockups, Crime down by 70%

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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Link



Is New York City now the safest city in the country?

It is one of the least-told stories in American crime-fighting. New York, the safest big city in the nation, achieved its now-legendary 70-percent drop in homicides even as it locked up fewer and fewer of its citizens during the past decade. The number of prisoners in the city has dropped from 21,449 in 1993 to 14,129 this past week. That runs counter to the national trend, in which prison admissions have jumped 72 percent during that time.

The national trend of lock em' up continues to be disturbing.

Nearly 2.2 million Americans now live behind bars, about eight times as many as in 1975 and the most per capita in the Western world. For three decades, Congress and dozens of legislatures have worked to write tougher anti-crime measures. Often the only controversy has centered on how to finance the construction of prison cells.

In New York, officials are shutting down prison cells. Elsewhere, it's a different story.

Perhaps as intriguing is the experience in states where officials spent billions of dollars to build prisons. From 1992 to 2002, Idaho's prison population grew by 174 percent. the largest percentage increase in the nation. Yet violent crime in that state rose by 14 percent. In West Virginia, the prison population increased by 171 percent, and violent crime rose 10 percent. In Texas, the prison population jumped by 168 percent, and crime dropped by 11 percent.

Other states are now beginning to re-think their overreliance on prisons:

In the past few years, legislators in such conservative states as Louisiana and Mississippi have passed sentencing reforms. Kansas and Nebraska are reconsidering prison expansion in favor of far less expensive drug treatment. The United States annually spends about $60 billion on prisons.

If you don't care because you don't know anyone in prison, you should. This affects you too.

"Crime is down and people realize, sure, we can lock up more people, but that's why your kid's pre-K class has 35 kids -- all the money is going to prisons," Jacobson says. "There's a sense of urgency that for the first time in two decades, we can talk about whether it makes sense to lock up even more people."

The pro- lock 'em up crowd thinks more people in prison reduces crime since fewer criminal are out there able to commit offenses. But, others point out:

The nation's prison population rose between 1985 and 1993 -- even as crime spiked sharply. New York was not the only city in which crime and imprisonment fell in tandem during the 1990s. From 1993 to 2001, homicides in San Diego declined by 62 percent while prison sentences dropped by 25 percent.

Casting an eye north of the border, Canada experienced a sharp drop in crime as its prison population fell.

Who's in jail these days?

Approximately 60 percent of U.S. convicts serve time for charges related to drug peddling and addiction. In California, 65,000 parolees fail drug tests each year and are recycled back to prison each year. They serve, on average, an additional four months, at a cost of $1 billion.

Then there's the social cost of incarceration:

Such heavy reliance on prison, epidemiologists note, carries a considerable social price tag. Hundreds of thousands of released felons cannot vote, cannot obtain driver's licenses and have trouble finding jobs -- a toll that falls disproportionately on blacks, Latinos and poor whites.

Don't give credit for lowering the jail population to Rudy Giuliani either:

No public official set out to drive down New York's prison and jail population in the early 1990s. Quite the opposite; crack-fueled homicides had topped 2,000, the middle class was fleeing and Giuliani was elected on a crime-fighting platform.

"If I told Rudy we needed to lock up 40,000, 50,000 people, he would have said fine," Jacobson said. "Rudy can say now that he's a genius, but the drop in prison population was entirely unintentional."

As for why crime may be lower in New York, consider this:

City and state prisons in New York also turned aggressively to drug treatment and mental health counseling. They did so as a matter of enlightened self-interest. The city prison system is the second-largest mental health provider in the nation; only the Los Angeles County system surpasses it.

Rehabilitation. Try it, it works.



It is about time people wake up to how idiotic this lock 'em up mindset we have had is, ever since Reagan cut our state hospitals prisons have become the countries new asylums, good to see some places waking up and reversing the trends and the wrongs done in the 80's. There is a good Frontline you can watch on the net about this here.
 

bsobel

Moderator Emeritus<br>Elite Member
Dec 9, 2001
13,346
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Amen. I hope we see more areas following this model.
 

LumbergTech

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2005
3,622
1
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a family member served some time and when he came out of jail he was not doing well..he may have been a criminal but he didnt deserve to be driven insane for his mistakes..he is also now a violent racist because of the racial tensions in the federal prison system..he was never like this before..used to be a really nice man ...made poor choices and lost his mind while behind bars
 

Horus

Platinum Member
Dec 27, 2003
2,838
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0
I think this kinda proves the absolute STUPIDITY of the US's "War on Drugs"
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,036
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126
I like the sound of this and I like the direction. One has to be cautious though and liberals need to be realistic. Rehabilitation should always be the goal but it is not child's play and one must not be blinded by rose colored lenses in viewing progress. There are many factors that can contribute to a decrease in crime including an aging population and an increase in employment.

But the attitude that people are good and have been made bad and can be rehabilitated is the attitude to begin with, in my opinion, because what causes crime, again in my opinion, is self hate, the feeling that one is too worthless to make it without committing some illegal act against others who have to gain money. It manifests, as all ego does, in the interest of oneself over and above the interests of others and creates a sense of self entitlement to what others have or should. A rehabilitative environment may be the first some people have ever seen in which they are actually cared about and it can be catching.

The problem with people who are not real, have false egos, is that some will play any game to get what they mistakenly think they deserve, including playing the game of being reformed. One needs to be aware and thoughtful and insightful and follow through without it becoming constant mistrust and suspicion. It is a business that requires some wisdom.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
CA is going nuts with prisons. Every politician is trying to be tougher on crime than the last one, to the point where we are outsourcing prisons to other states.
Plus correction worker unions are campaigning for tougher laws for their own job security.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,105
53,480
136
The biggest problem is that it is politically very very tough for someone to be for lighter prison terms... and promising to "crack down" on crime is always a campaign winner.

That, and the hyper authoritarian way we have right now is almost a self fufilling prophesy. You lock people up for huge amounts of time...take away their options... and then when they commit a new crime you can just say you didn't lock them up long enough. Ahhh... it's the circle of life!
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,983
9,076
136
Nice idea, in theory.

Yet in practice, to achieve those results they could have also cooked the books, had an off year which can be natural variation, or a result of other trends in the community.

I?m reminded of police setting up watch towers in Harlem to help them handle the growing crime there.

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=64500

So this part of your ?it?s safer now? pipe dream?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
One way to help with this is to reduce the privatization of the prison system, a huge industry with a lot of money to lobby for longer sentences to increase their profits. The prison guard unions donating to democrats just make it worse.

The mix of 'tough on crime' republicans and moderates and even some liberals, prison money to repubs and union guard money to dems equals tragic policy.

This is an example of democracy failing, and it includes the common problem of money corrupting the system. Who's going to spend the millions to lobby for the anti-long sentence side and counter the propaganda that the long prison sentences are helpful paid for by the industry and spread by politicians to protect their position?

Even politicians who know the truth and want to improve things are roadkill if they try to say sentences should be shorter.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Nice idea, in theory.

Yet in practice, to achieve those results they could have also cooked the books, had an off year which can be natural variation, or a result of other trends in the community.

I?m reminded of police setting up watch towers in Harlem to help them handle the growing crime there.

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=1&aid=64500

So this part of your ?it?s safer now? pipe dream?

Ah yes, the old "one news story proves my broad point" approach to argument. It's not a "theory", it's actually WORKING. Does that mean there is no crime at all or that certain areas aren't problems? Obviously not, but things are obviously improving, and while they could have "cooked the books", I see no evidence to suggest they have. So please take your "creationist" equivalent of crime control off to FreeRepublic, or wherever else they like to form opinions based off of complete bullshit.
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
4,814
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71
Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Link



Is New York City now the safest city in the country?

It is one of the least-told stories in American crime-fighting. New York, the safest big city in the nation, achieved its now-legendary 70-percent drop in homicides even as it locked up fewer and fewer of its citizens during the past decade. The number of prisoners in the city has dropped from 21,449 in 1993 to 14,129 this past week. That runs counter to the national trend, in which prison admissions have jumped 72 percent during that time.

The national trend of lock em' up continues to be disturbing.

Nearly 2.2 million Americans now live behind bars, about eight times as many as in 1975 and the most per capita in the Western world. For three decades, Congress and dozens of legislatures have worked to write tougher anti-crime measures. Often the only controversy has centered on how to finance the construction of prison cells.

In New York, officials are shutting down prison cells. Elsewhere, it's a different story.

Perhaps as intriguing is the experience in states where officials spent billions of dollars to build prisons. From 1992 to 2002, Idaho's prison population grew by 174 percent. the largest percentage increase in the nation. Yet violent crime in that state rose by 14 percent. In West Virginia, the prison population increased by 171 percent, and violent crime rose 10 percent. In Texas, the prison population jumped by 168 percent, and crime dropped by 11 percent.

Other states are now beginning to re-think their overreliance on prisons:

In the past few years, legislators in such conservative states as Louisiana and Mississippi have passed sentencing reforms. Kansas and Nebraska are reconsidering prison expansion in favor of far less expensive drug treatment. The United States annually spends about $60 billion on prisons.

If you don't care because you don't know anyone in prison, you should. This affects you too.

"Crime is down and people realize, sure, we can lock up more people, but that's why your kid's pre-K class has 35 kids -- all the money is going to prisons," Jacobson says. "There's a sense of urgency that for the first time in two decades, we can talk about whether it makes sense to lock up even more people."

The pro- lock 'em up crowd thinks more people in prison reduces crime since fewer criminal are out there able to commit offenses. But, others point out:

The nation's prison population rose between 1985 and 1993 -- even as crime spiked sharply. New York was not the only city in which crime and imprisonment fell in tandem during the 1990s. From 1993 to 2001, homicides in San Diego declined by 62 percent while prison sentences dropped by 25 percent.

Casting an eye north of the border, Canada experienced a sharp drop in crime as its prison population fell.

Who's in jail these days?

Approximately 60 percent of U.S. convicts serve time for charges related to drug peddling and addiction. In California, 65,000 parolees fail drug tests each year and are recycled back to prison each year. They serve, on average, an additional four months, at a cost of $1 billion.

Then there's the social cost of incarceration:

Such heavy reliance on prison, epidemiologists note, carries a considerable social price tag. Hundreds of thousands of released felons cannot vote, cannot obtain driver's licenses and have trouble finding jobs -- a toll that falls disproportionately on blacks, Latinos and poor whites.

Don't give credit for lowering the jail population to Rudy Giuliani either:

No public official set out to drive down New York's prison and jail population in the early 1990s. Quite the opposite; crack-fueled homicides had topped 2,000, the middle class was fleeing and Giuliani was elected on a crime-fighting platform.

"If I told Rudy we needed to lock up 40,000, 50,000 people, he would have said fine," Jacobson said. "Rudy can say now that he's a genius, but the drop in prison population was entirely unintentional."

As for why crime may be lower in New York, consider this:

City and state prisons in New York also turned aggressively to drug treatment and mental health counseling. They did so as a matter of enlightened self-interest. The city prison system is the second-largest mental health provider in the nation; only the Los Angeles County system surpasses it.

Rehabilitation. Try it, it works.



It is about time people wake up to how idiotic this lock 'em up mindset we have had is, ever since Reagan cut our state hospitals prisons have become the countries new asylums, good to see some places waking up and reversing the trends and the wrongs done in the 80's. There is a good Frontline you can watch on the net about this here.




The city prison system is the second-largest mental health provider in the nation; only the Los Angeles County system surpasses it.

Shouldn't Los Angeles be lower also if thats the key factor?

Maybe it PR for Rudy and Hillary in 08;)

 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: daniel49


The city prison system is the second-largest mental health provider in the nation; only the Los Angeles County system surpasses it.

Shouldn't Los Angeles be lower also if thats the key factor?

Maybe it PR for Rudy and Hillary in 08;)

Drug rehab is not a priority here, and also CA prison system is far overcrowded and running beyond its means, we still unfortunately have that redneck idea of lock em up more and more with parolees getting drug tested and sent back in, the whole bit, CA system is a mess, LA is a shambles.

The private prison industry here is also big money, which makes it even worse, profit + fear mongering folks + idiotic drug war has made a huge mess.

Also, there is no comparison to CA and NYC, we are in the grips of a terrible meth epidemic, on the east coast most people only have heard rumors of meth, they do not know how badly it has laid waste to the social fabric of the west epically rural areas.

Meth makes people go totally nuts, and there is no helping it but cleaning it off the streets and making people go cold turkey, very rare that someone quits on their own self-will before it totally breaks them down, you can pretty much either go through the revolving door of prison system, or join the service and go to iraq where they get the "legit" stuff from the military over there.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Hate crimes on the rise, not fall

Biased source claiming slight reduction of 5 percent but with juvenile crimes on the rise

Good source that shows the decline since 1992, and part of it seems due to stiffer sentencing and taking criminals off the streets.

Overall the nationwide trend is similar to New York. While inner cities have seen some relief, rural United States crime is on the rise. Suburbian mafia crime is skyrocketing as the drug wars reach into untapped neighborhoods.

Suburbs getting MORE crime

Suburbs getting more crime

You can check many major cities and see the same trend. I guess that the crooks got tired of living in the inner cities and decided that it just wasn't worth it, so moved to the suburbs.

What i'm getting at is that the City of New york may be doing great things, but you MUST take into account the nationwide Innner City Crime decline trends as well as the nationwide increase in suburbian crime into the new york equation. Obviously New York is doing well (better tan most), but how well once you figure in the nationwide trends??
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,794
4,887
136
Originally posted by: maluckey
Hate crimes on the rise, not fall

Biased source claiming slight reduction of 5 percent but with juvenile crimes on the rise

Good source that shows the decline since 1992, and part of it seems due to stiffer sentencing and taking criminals off the streets.

Overall the nationwide trend is similar to New York. While inner cities have seen some relief, rural United States crime is on the rise. Suburbian mafia crime is skyrocketing as the drug wars reach into untapped neighborhoods.

Suburbs getting MORE crime

Suburbs getting more crime

You can check many major cities and see the same trend. I guess that the crooks got tired of living in the inner cities and decided that it just wasn't worth it, so moved to the suburbs.

What i'm getting at is that the City of New york may be doing great things, but you MUST take into account the nationwide Innner City Crime decline trends as well as the nationwide increase in suburbian crime into the new york equation. Obviously New York is doing well (better tan most), but how well once you figure in the nationwide trends??




Uh, you really don't get it, do you?

The whole point of the article is that New York's crime rate may be down due to their approach.


Simple enough?
 

astrosfan90

Golden Member
Mar 17, 2005
1,156
0
0
That's okay, sounds to me like the police in NY are picking up the slack, judging by the story of the cops unloading 50 rounds into a car this weekend outside of a strip club.
 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Uh, you really don't get it, do you?

Yes, I do..

But it's obvious the you don't seem to see that there is a much bigger picture that says that New Yorks attitude and approach may mean much less when compared to Nationwide trends since 1992.. Uh, you didn't get it , did you?

That's still not saying that NYC isn't doing something right, just that the trend has been going on since 1992, and the suburbs have been getting worse since 1992.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,794
4,887
136
Originally posted by: maluckey
Uh, you really don't get it, do you?

Yes, I do..

But it's obvious the you don't seem to see that there is a much bigger picture that says that New Yorks attitude and approach may mean much less when compared to Nationwide trends since 1992.. Uh, you didn't get it , did you?

That's still not saying that NYC isn't doing something right, just that the trend has been going on since 1992, and the suburbs have been getting worse since 1992.



So what? That's like saying a city that solved a specific problem didn't really solve it because other cities still have problems.




 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
0
71
Feralkid,

No, It's like saying that just because a glass of water is half full that it is also half empty. Neither one nor the other is entirely false. Somewhere in the middle lies what separates the two truths.

Suburban crime on the rise nationwide...do you think that the FALL of crime in the major cities is a fluke, or did the crime move? More studies will surely show what it is that happened. Is NYC on to something? We don't know until you take into account the ENTIRE picuture, and not just see what you are wanted to see.