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"describing Israel as a 'racist government' established on the 'pretext' of Jewish suffering,"

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
I can't really see how you could call Israelis racist. There are white, black, and semetic Jews, all treated equally. If by racist what you really mean is "distrustful of their muslim neighbors whom have tried to invade and annihilate them 5 times in 50 years" then sure.
 

JSFLY

Golden Member
Mar 24, 2006
1,068
0
0
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I can't really see how you could call Israelis racist. There are white, black, and semetic Jews, all treated equally. If by racist what you really mean is "distrustful of their muslim neighbors whom have tried to invade and annihilate them 5 times in 50 years" then sure.
I agree.

Though when you just show up and start settling on Muslim land, you got to expect some hatred toward you.
 

nixium

Senior member
Aug 25, 2008
919
3
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Incorrect.

And as for the source, it's either you, thesnowman, or your common good buddy Ahmadinejad.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
I believe the OP is referring to Israel's somewhat cynical ruse of pretend crying like they are the victim while they act as the bully. Something a few clever people in Israel have used to great effect for years. And something that will eventually backfire on Israel, even though there is no sign of that yet.
 

wwswimming

Banned
Jan 21, 2006
3,702
1
0
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I can't really see how you could call Israelis racist. There are white, black, and semetic Jews, all treated equally. If by racist what you really mean is "distrustful of their muslim neighbors whom have tried to invade and annihilate them 5 times in 50 years" then sure.
he didn't. he described the government as racist.

given their 60 years' treatment of the Palestinians, and their own
version of Holocaust Denial, the Israeli government is racist.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

/\ about the Holocaust they inflicted on the Palestinians in 1948.

as far as "established on the 'pretext' of Jewish suffering", that
might be part of the official story. it also has a lot to do with
oil in the mid-East & the Rapture delusions of American Christians.
Their Christian preachers tell them that in order for Jesus to come
back, Israel must first be re-built.
 

Stoneburner

Diamond Member
May 29, 2003
3,491
0
76
The israeli government is technically theocratic. to the extent it has consistently treated palestinians disparately in , for example, distribution of state owned land, it is definitely racist.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,591
5
0
Originally posted by: wwswimming
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I can't really see how you could call Israelis racist. There are white, black, and semetic Jews, all treated equally. If by racist what you really mean is "distrustful of their muslim neighbors whom have tried to invade and annihilate them 5 times in 50 years" then sure.
he didn't. he described the government as racist.

given their 60 years' treatment of the Palestinians, and their own
version of Holocaust Denial, the Israeli government is racist.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

/\ about the Holocaust they inflicted on the Palestinians in 1948.

as far as "established on the 'pretext' of Jewish suffering", that
might be part of the official story. it also has a lot to do with
oil in the mid-East & the Rapture delusions of American Christians.
Their Christian preachers tell them that in order for Jesus to come
back, Israel must first be re-built.
The Arabs have treated the Palestinians worse and they voluntarily assumed responsibility of them.

 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,220
26
91
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Bomb Iran.
It is going to happen, no doubt about that. Hopefully one of the bombs "misses" and hits Imadingusjackoff's house.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
Originally posted by: wwswimming
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I can't really see how you could call Israelis racist. There are white, black, and semetic Jews, all treated equally. If by racist what you really mean is "distrustful of their muslim neighbors whom have tried to invade and annihilate them 5 times in 50 years" then sure.
he didn't. he described the government as racist.

given their 60 years' treatment of the Palestinians, and their own
version of Holocaust Denial, the Israeli government is racist.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

/\ about the Holocaust they inflicted on the Palestinians in 1948.

as far as "established on the 'pretext' of Jewish suffering", that
might be part of the official story. it also has a lot to do with
oil in the mid-East & the Rapture delusions of American Christians.
Their Christian preachers tell them that in order for Jesus to come
back, Israel must first be re-built.
Then why is 20% of the Israeli population Arab palastinians?

I think people toss around the word holocaust as some kind of sick parody when talking about this situation.

Israel is rebuilt, why havent the American Christians initiated their Rapture?
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
2
0
GenX asks, "Israel is rebuilt, why havent the American Christians initiated their Rapture?"

From what I understand of the rapture mumbo jumbo, two conditions are not yet met, Israel first has to tear down the Islamic mosque in Jerusalem, and second, Jesus Christ himself has forgotten to make his reappearance yet. Even though GWB&co assembled all the devils armies in the vicinity.

There was another similar end of the world belief at the close of the first 1,000 years, but that one finally trickled out, so now we have the new and improved version. Maybe God's calendar recons dates differently, base six perhaps.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
Originally posted by: Lemon law
GenX asks, "Israel is rebuilt, why havent the American Christians initiated their Rapture?"

From what I understand of the rapture mumbo jumbo, two conditions are not yet met, Israel first has to tear down the Islamic mosque in Jerusalem, and second, Jesus Christ himself has forgotten to make his reappearance yet. Even though GWB&co assembled all the devils armies in the vicinity.

There was another similar end of the world belief at the close of the first 1,000 years, but that one finally trickled out, so now we have the new and improved version. Maybe God's calendar recons dates differently, base six perhaps.
My question was more rhetorical in nature meant to poke fun at the idea Israel was built because some sects of chrisitanity wanted it.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: Lemon law
GenX asks, "Israel is rebuilt, why havent the American Christians initiated their Rapture?"

From what I understand of the rapture mumbo jumbo, two conditions are not yet met, Israel first has to tear down the Islamic mosque in Jerusalem, and second, Jesus Christ himself has forgotten to make his reappearance yet. Even though GWB&co assembled all the devils armies in the vicinity.

There was another similar end of the world belief at the close of the first 1,000 years, but that one finally trickled out, so now we have the new and improved version. Maybe God's calendar recons dates differently, base six perhaps.
Well the anti-Christ has to make his appearance as well, which is supposed to be the catalyst for all the rest.

Of course a lot of people think that OBL or Obama fit that description, but I'm not so sure, :D
 

QuantumPion

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2005
6,010
1
76
Originally posted by: wwswimming
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I can't really see how you could call Israelis racist. There are white, black, and semetic Jews, all treated equally. If by racist what you really mean is "distrustful of their muslim neighbors whom have tried to invade and annihilate them 5 times in 50 years" then sure.
he didn't. he described the government as racist.

given their 60 years' treatment of the Palestinians, and their own
version of Holocaust Denial, the Israeli government is racist.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

/\ about the Holocaust they inflicted on the Palestinians in 1948.

as far as "established on the 'pretext' of Jewish suffering", that
might be part of the official story. it also has a lot to do with
oil in the mid-East & the Rapture delusions of American Christians.
Their Christian preachers tell them that in order for Jesus to come
back, Israel must first be re-built.
But Palestinians aren't a race. They are Jordanians and Egyptians. Race-wise, they are Semitic, the same as most Israelis.

Calling Israel racist for being mean towards Palestinians would be like calling the United States racist against Nazis while we were at war with Germany. It's a meaningless statement meant to give a thinly-veiled excuse for Jew-haters to bash Israel.
 

paulney

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2003
6,912
1
0
Originally posted by: Lemon law
GenX asks, "Israel is rebuilt, why havent the American Christians initiated their Rapture?"

From what I understand of the rapture mumbo jumbo, two conditions are not yet met, Israel first has to tear down the Islamic mosque in Jerusalem, and second, Jesus Christ himself has forgotten to make his reappearance yet. Even though GWB&co assembled all the devils armies in the vicinity.
Technically, the Temple has to be rebuilt. Of course, in order to do that, you have to tear down everything that occupies the place of former Temple, which includes Al Aqsa Mosque and Mosque of Omar. Now, some scholars argue, that the Temple does not have to be physical, but is a metaphor. And of course, there's this whole thing about the Lord creating a state for Jews, and until then they cannot have any state, and must remain in exile and dispersed through the lands. Zionism vs Orthodox teachings and all that stuff.

 

Fern

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
173
106
Originally posted by: Lemon law
GenX asks, "Israel is rebuilt, why havent the American Christians initiated their Rapture?"

From what I understand of the rapture mumbo jumbo, two conditions are not yet met, Israel first has to tear down the Islamic mosque in Jerusalem, and second, Jesus Christ himself has forgotten to make his reappearance yet. Even though GWB&co assembled all the devils armies in the vicinity.
Not quite.

What you list as preconditions before the rapture can take place is not quite right. Jesus's (2nd) appearance is not a condition, it is when the rapture will ocur

Matthew 24:30-36
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
In other words, it's part of the event, not a precondition.


Originally posted by: Lemon law
There was another similar end of the world belief at the close of the first 1,000 years, but that one finally trickled out, so now we have the new and improved version. Maybe God's calendar recons dates differently, base six perhaps.
Here again, not quite right.

The millenium period has nothing to do with the "first 1,000" years. Instead it refers to a 1,000 reign of Christ etc on earth.

Although there have been several 'versions' of this millenium, by far the most popular and current view held by evangelicals etc (I assume you're referring to their beliefs) is the "Premillennialism" view. Under this view the millenium (1,000 years) ocurs after the 2nd coming.

Just saying....

Fern
 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I can't really see how you could call Israelis racist. There are white, black, and semetic Jews, all treated equally. If by racist what you really mean is "distrustful of their muslim neighbors whom have tried to invade and annihilate them 5 times in 50 years" then sure.
It is easy to understand that Jewish is a religion, NOT a race. However, there are enough Jews (and the arguments that have occurred on AT are numerous to show this - go seek it out) that think Judaism is a RACE . This is where your argument falls apart.

So from their perspective, you have "Jews" and Arabs. Thus you can apply the racist argument.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
Originally posted by: wwswimming
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I can't really see how you could call Israelis racist. There are white, black, and semetic Jews, all treated equally. If by racist what you really mean is "distrustful of their muslim neighbors whom have tried to invade and annihilate them 5 times in 50 years" then sure.
he didn't. he described the government as racist.

given their 60 years' treatment of the Palestinians, and their own
version of Holocaust Denial, the Israeli government is racist.

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

/\ about the Holocaust they inflicted on the Palestinians in 1948.

as far as "established on the 'pretext' of Jewish suffering", that
might be part of the official story. it also has a lot to do with
oil in the mid-East & the Rapture delusions of American Christians.
Their Christian preachers tell them that in order for Jesus to come
back, Israel must first be re-built.
But Palestinians aren't a race. They are Jordanians and Egyptians. Race-wise, they are Semitic, the same as most Israelis.

Calling Israel racist for being mean towards Palestinians would be like calling the United States racist against Nazis while we were at war with Germany. It's a meaningless statement meant to give a thinly-veiled excuse for Jew-haters to bash Israel.

No. Your statements seem confusing so lets get some basic points down.

Jordanians and Egyptions are not races. They are NATIONALITIES.

"Arabs" are the major group across all the Middle East and North Africa. However, unlike the settlers from the 'New World' who slaughtered all Indians, legislated miscegenation laws, Arabs ended up assimilating into the locals, and the locals ended up being assimilated.
An "Arab" from Iraq is not the same as an "Arab" from Palestine. An "Arab" whose origin is the UAE is not going to be the same as an "Arab" from Egypt. Iraqi Arabs probably are mixture of Sumerians, Assyrians, Babylonians, Iranians as well as Arabs...which is to say that they are essentially a mixture from the peoples that have lived there over long periods of time - the 'Semitic' Groups that you correctly refer to. Eygption Arabs probably have mixtures of Nubians (especially the darker ones), the O.G. Egyptions, Arabs, and other native populations there . Palestinians, likewise, will follow as such and probably have a lot of what would be referred to as "Jewish Genes" because the population was not always Muslims.
What maintained throughout the areas is the language and culture (and its very hard to separate language from culture because language is a piece of culture itself). So even though every 'Arab' is really not a pure Arab, and is a potpourri of whatever existed there in the first place which is largely many semitic groups, because they still identify with the (largely) same language and culture...they all identify themselves as Arabs.

Now because many Jews identify themselves AS A RACE, the term racist now makes sense.

I have no idea why you said Palestinians aren't a race and then follow up that they are Jordinians and Eypgtions. Palestinians are Arabs who live(d) in the general area that comprise of West Bank, Gaza and Israel. Your first two sentences are confusing, while only the last statement makes sense (and even then you miss the key point that many Jews see themselves as a race...too bad race is entirely a social construction)

Calling people 'Jew Bashers' because they oppose the policies of Israel is a meaningless statement because it is a thinly veiled means to draw away rightful criticism against the Israeli Government.

I was sickened to read today how a lot of the remembrance for the Holocaust was tied to the State of Israel. Thinly veiled bullshit to try to connect those today to the Nazis of the past. Even as much as the president of Iran seems to be an idiot, and absolutely poor at PR management, one is going to be hard pressed to say he is a Nazi who looks to exterminate all Jews again when he has a huge Jewish community in his own country. IMO his stupidity largely stems not from opposition to the government of Israel as it comes from statements that deny that the Holocaust. That is what kills a lot of his credibility for me. Of course I could be getting mistranslations as well, which we all know has happened...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8009800.stm
Mr Shalom said that 64 years after the Holocaust "we still have to deal with prejudice, with hate, with those that are trying to do everything they can in order to destroy the Jewish state, the State of Israel."
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
Then why is 20% of the Israeli population Arab palastinians?
Because the racists who established the state couldn't accept 40%:

"In the area allocated to the Jewish State there are not more than 520,000 Jews and about 350,000 non-Jews, mostly Arabs. Together with the Jews of Jerusalem, the total population of the Jewish State at the time of its establishment, will be about one million, including almost 40% non-Jews. such a [population] composition does not provide a stable basis for a Jewish State. This [demographic] fact must be viewed in all its clarity and acuteness. With such a [population] composition, there cannot even be absolute certainty that control will remain in the hands of the Jewish majority .... There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%." - David Ben-Gurion
As for "Christian" Zionists, they expect Israel's ethnic cleansing to continue across the West Bank until Israel annexes it and more to reclaim all it's Biblical territory first. Then the antichrist leads the world against Israel wiping out half the Jews before Jesus comes to convert the rest. Ideologies don't come much more bigoted than that, hardly consistent with the teachings of Jesus, and in contradiction to scripture which warns against attempting to reclaim the land by force.

Originally posted by: QuantumPion
But Palestinians aren't a race. They are Jordanians and Egyptians. Race-wise, they are Semitic, the same as most Israelis.

Calling Israel racist for being mean towards Palestinians would be like calling the United States racist against Nazis while we were at war with Germany. It's a meaningless statement meant to give a thinly-veiled excuse for Jew-haters to bash Israel.
Palestinians are predominately indigenous to the region of Palestine and what is now Israel and the occupied territories, not Jordanian or Egyptian, and comparing them to Nazis is absurd. Furthermore calling Semitic a race is something that Nazis did, while more correctly it is simply an ethnolinguistic distinction.

Anyway, even Israel's previous Prime Minster recently noted the racism in Israeli government.

And since Likud has recently regained power, it is worth noting what Albert Einstein and other prominent American Jews had to say about their predecessors back in 1948:

To the Editors of the New York Times:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin's political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin's behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin's party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village
A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants240 men, women, and childrenand kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen
The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a "Leader State" is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

ISIDORE ABRAMOWITZ, HANNAH ARENDT, ABRAHAM BRICK, RABBI JESSURUN CARDOZO, ALBERT EINSTEIN, HERMAN EISEN, M.D., HAYIM FINEMAN, M. GALLEN, M.D., H.H. HARRIS, ZELIG S. HARRIS, SIDNEY HOOK, FRED KARUSH, BRURIA KAUFMAN, IRMA L. LINDHEIM, NACHMAN MAISEL, SEYMOUR MELMAN, MYER D. MENDELSON, M.D., HARRY M. OSLINSKY, SAMUEL PITLICK, FRITZ ROHRLICH, LOUIS P. ROCKER, RUTH SAGIS, ITZHAK SANKOWSKY, I.J. SHOENBERG, SAMUEL SHUMAN, M. SINGER, IRMA WOLFE, STEFAN WOLFE.
Surely you won't brush them all off with the ridiculous libel of "self-hating Jews"?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Originally posted by: magomago
IMO his stupidity largely stems not from opposition to the government of Israel as it comes from statements that deny that the Holocaust. That is what kills a lot of his credibility for me. Of course I could be getting mistranslations as well, which we all know has happened.
Heh:

A Feeling I'm Being Had
...

Ahmadinejad also called the holocaust a "myth." Fuck him! A myth is
something a society uses to frame their understanding of their world, and
act accordingly. It's not as if the world created a whole new country
because of holocaust guilt and gives it a free pass no matter what it
does. That's Iranian crazy talk. Ahmadinejad can blow me.

Most insulting is the fact that "myth" implies the holocaust didn't
happen. Fuck him for saying that! He also says he won't dispute the
historical claims of European scientists. That is obviously the opposite of
saying the holocaust didn't happen, which I assume is his way of
confusing me. God-damned fucker.
...
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,061
494
126
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I can't really see how you could call Israelis racist. There are white, black, and semetic Jews, all treated equally. If by racist what you really mean is "distrustful of their muslim neighbors whom have tried to invade and annihilate them 5 times in 50 years" then sure.
It is easy to understand that Jewish is a religion, NOT a race. However, there are enough Jews (and the arguments that have occurred on AT are numerous to show this - go seek it out) that think Judaism is a RACE . This is where your argument falls apart.

So from their perspective, you have "Jews" and Arabs. Thus you can apply the racist argument.
What utterly bizzaro world logic. Using your own logic everything can be considered a race. Liberal, Conservative, Catholics, Lutherans, communist, fascist.

 

magomago

Lifer
Sep 28, 2002
10,973
14
76
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: magomago
Originally posted by: QuantumPion
I can't really see how you could call Israelis racist. There are white, black, and semetic Jews, all treated equally. If by racist what you really mean is "distrustful of their muslim neighbors whom have tried to invade and annihilate them 5 times in 50 years" then sure.
It is easy to understand that Jewish is a religion, NOT a race. However, there are enough Jews (and the arguments that have occurred on AT are numerous to show this - go seek it out) that think Judaism is a RACE . This is where your argument falls apart.

So from their perspective, you have "Jews" and Arabs. Thus you can apply the racist argument.
What utterly bizzaro world logic. Using your own logic everything can be considered a race. Liberal, Conservative, Catholics, Lutherans, communist, fascist.
My logic states that no races exist. It is completely a social fabrication.

If someone believes they are a race of X, then they believe that and that is all that matters to them. Doesn't matter if I don't think they are a race at all. That is what they believe

If a Liberal deludes himself enough to be a race, and he kicks the crap of out conservaites because they are conservatives...then it is racist plain and simple. Of course, is that liberal a part of the "Liberal Race"? Hello No. That is crazy talk.

Quite a few Jews believe themselves to be a race. Do I believe it? Hell no. But if a Jew, who can be of any group of people, beats up on a (hypothetically) Mexican because "He thinks Jews are Superior to Mexicans", then that Jew IS racist. Doesn't matter if Jews are not racists. Because the aggressor, in his mind, believes himself to be a race, then the action is set within that framework.

Now find me a liberal, conservative, catholic, lutheran, communist, facist or muslim that thinks they are a race.
 

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