Derrick Chauvin murder trial jury questionaire

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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
136
Will point out that this statement is incorrect. Chauvin had his knee on the nape of the neck which is the back of the neck. The carotid artery/jugular is the front. George Floyd in the full video moves his head back and forth with Chauvin's knee there several times.

If there was an issue that could have caused asphyxiation in that scenario it would be from compression of the chest and not that part of the neck area. Chauvin and the other officer had their weight on other parts of the body including the back which could cause the chest to compress when pressed against the asphalt of the road.

I am not making a statement of anything with this post in any way regarding the case, just clearing up an incorrect statement to factuality.
Thank you doctor.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Thank you doctor.

There is a difference because if one believes "it was a neck compression for asphyxiation in this case and that was the direct cause of death" then that leads to a different sort of opinions formed. This is because "everyone knows" that compression of the front of the neck will lead to eventual death and thus the only outcome is that the officer was always trying to murder him. That all officers being taught to restrain the neck means all officers are just trying to murder people. Those are examples of improper opinions that could be formed with that incorrect fact being assumed.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,264
3,840
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Will point out that this statement is incorrect. Chauvin had his knee on the nape of the neck which is the back of the neck. The carotid artery/jugular is the front. George Floyd in the full video moves his head back and forth with Chauvin's knee there several times.

If there was an issue that could have caused asphyxiation in that scenario it would be from compression of the chest and not that part of the neck area. Chauvin and the other officer had their weight on other parts of the body including the back which could cause the chest to compress when pressed against the asphalt of the road.

I am not making a statement of anything with this post in any way regarding the case, just clearing up an incorrect statement to factuality.

I'll rewatch, because from what I could see, his knee was right where the forearm would be in a standard chokehold.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
17,116
14,484
146
This is a fundamental problem with the justice system. You have to be a dumb shit to get on a jury.
So when I got picked for a jury
jnHWXN4.gif
for a domestic dispute between an African-American woman and her African immigrant boyfriend, during voir dire I watched the defense attorney chuck a woman for having worked a spousal abuse hotline and the prosecutor chuck every African -American he came to in the jury pool.

I think I was the last chosen because they had used all their strikes by the time they got to me.

(Or maybe I was just the biggest dumb shit because they made me foreman
BLOW5do.png
)

When we went to jury deliberations I was shocked at how many had thoroughly made up their minds before we even had a chance to talk as a jury. (The women on the jury universally and for some vehemently sided with the boyfriend)

My other time going through voir dire for a case where a registered sex offender was allegedly a few days late updating his living location after a move (sure glad there was no other more important cases that day) included a potential juror answering “innocent people aren’t arrested”, after being asked if they understood someone is not considered guilty for being arrested.

Needless to say my faith in court system has been a bit shaken.
 
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interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
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The question actually doesn't matter. If he died from asphyxiation, by definition you are not getting adequate oxygenation of tissue (e.g. brain). Cerebral hypoxia if prolonged enough will cause damage whether it's due to restricting blood flow or restricting oxygenation of blood.
 
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HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
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I'll rewatch, because from what I could see, his knee was right where the forearm would be in a standard chokehold.

That would be a little hard since George was face down on the road when the officers were on top. The only position the knee could be would be to the backside of the neck and not the front.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,264
3,840
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That would be a little hard since George was face down on the road when the officers were on top. The only position the knee could be would be to the backside of the neck and not the front.

Clearly, you've never seen anyone sleeping on their stomach.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Clearly, you've never seen anyone sleeping on their stomach.

While the side of the neck can be presented from someone on their stomach, it is recessed below the jawline and shoulder area. One would have to have very skinny and pointy knees to press upon the carotid artery in that position. Even then, all it would take would be for the person to swivel their head to stop such pressure in the first place from that position as a knee can't prevent that. Or even tuck their ear into their shoulder as well.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
136
While the side of the neck can be presented from someone on their stomach, it is recessed below the jawline and shoulder area. One would have to have very skinny and pointy knees to press upon the carotid artery in that position. Even then, all it would take would be for the person to swivel their head to stop such pressure in the first place from that position as a knee can't prevent that. Or even tuck their ear into their shoulder as well.
Swivel their head? While pinned to the pavement? How does that work, Doctor Lawyer?
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Swivel their head? While pinned to the pavement? How does that work, Doctor Lawyer?

Unless your head is being forcibly held, and I mean the actual head and not a knee being pressed to the back of the neck, you can still swivel your head. The head is a hard thing to keep from moving without a proper head restraint or hold that has more points of contact on parts of the head. You ever try to hold the head of someone having a seizure on the ground for example? Even when trying to stop it from moving, it is hard to do so. As shown in the videos, George moves his head around despite the knee being on the back of the neck as an example of what I am talking about. That isn't to say that it wouldn't be rough on the face in that position to move the head around. I'm certain there would some scraping that would occur.
 

Viper1j

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2018
4,264
3,840
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Unless your head is being forcibly held, and I mean the actual head and not a knee being pressed to the back of the neck, you can still swivel your head. The head is a hard thing to keep from moving without a proper head restraint or hold that has more points of contact on parts of the head. You ever try to hold the head of someone having a seizure on the ground for example? Even when trying to stop it from moving, it is hard to do so. As shown in the videos, George moves his head around despite the knee being on the back of the neck as an example of what I am talking about. That isn't to say that it wouldn't be rough on the face in that position to move the head around. I'm certain there would some scraping that would occur.

I suppose you could swivel your head, if you wanted to use the concrete to sendpaper your chin.

And you're forgetting, the George Floyd was not Jet Li. He was a scared dude, suffering from claustrophobia, with a certain amount of drugs in his system, and in a total panic.

Derek might have found himself with a bit of a sticky wicket, had he tried to pull that shit on anybody with any real amount of training.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
I suppose you could swivel your head, if you wanted to use the concrete to sendpaper your chin.

And you're forgetting, the George Floyd was not Jet Li. He was a scared dude, suffering from claustrophobia, with a certain amount of drugs in his system, and in a total panic.

Derek might have found himself with a bit of a sticky wicket, had he tried to pull that shit on anybody with any real amount of training.

The fact is the video shows him doing it. If a person can move their head in that position, then there is no pressure on the carotid artery in the neck that can be applied.

Also, as I said before, one can easily tuck their ear on the possible side that the neck is exposed on in that position into their shoulder. Doing so would prevent any more exposure from that part of the neck from the back region. That wouldn't even take swiveling the head.

My point was, and was also never mentioned in any of the coroner reports, that the carotid artery being pressed upon was any cause for any form of asphyxiation. Nor is there any evidence that the carotid artery was ever pressed down upon in the scenario. Your claim that it was is factually incorrect. That is all I was pointing out.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Dislocate your jaw, defy the laws of physics, etc.

I suggest you try getting into a face down on your stomach position and let someone control your head with just their knee on the back of your neck. Or really with just the knee only from any place position on the back. Years of my training in akido and some jiu jitsu from my experience tell me there is no laws of physics being denied to move your head from that position. On a road there could be some scrapping of the skin if being careless, but that is about it.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,125
30,518
136
I suggest you try getting into a face down on your stomach position and let someone control your head with just their knee on the back of your neck. Or really with just the knee only from any place position on the back. Years of my training in akido and some jiu jitsu from my experience tell me there is no laws of physics being denied to move your head from that position. On a road there could be some scrapping of the skin if being careless, but that is about it.
Okay Doctor Lawyer Sensei.
 
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HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Okay Doctor Lawyer Sensei.


You can see him lift his head up and adjust it here in this part of the video even with the knee on his neck at 1:30. You can clearly see that the exposed side of the neck with the carotid artery is not being compressed by the knee.

The bigger evidence for asphyxiation is compression of the chest as shown in this video. Where Chauvin and another officer are placing their weight on the torso.

 
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Fenixgoon

Lifer
Jun 30, 2003
32,117
10,937
136
Dude, you even met me IRL. Do you not remember my physic at the time? I'm not exactly a small guy even now for my age.
Yes I remember. Pretty sure that bacon-wrapped bacon is still clogging my arteries, hah.

I was making a joke about the doctor lawyer sensei line, nothing to do with your physical size/shape/condition .
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Yes I remember. Pretty sure that bacon-wrapped bacon is still clogging my arteries, hah.

I was making a joke about the doctor lawyer sensei line, nothing to do with your physical size/shape/condition .

Well, being that this is the internet, people can make all sorts of claims. You at least met me when I was out in CA for work so at least someone here knows a tiny bit about me for real. Not that you exactly know if I've done martial arts in the past for years but at least you can attest to a degree that my claim here isn't something out of the realm of my physique :)
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,004
8,040
136
The question actually doesn't matter. If he died from asphyxiation, by definition you are not getting adequate oxygenation of tissue (e.g. brain). Cerebral hypoxia if prolonged enough will cause damage whether it's due to restricting blood flow or restricting oxygenation of blood.

It matters with regard to the actions of Derrick Chauvin and his responsibility in the death of George Floyd VS the other officers bearing weight down upon the man.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
It matters with regard to the actions of Derrick Chauvin and his responsibility in the death of George Floyd VS the other officers bearing weight down upon the man.

Sort of. I don't see the officer holding down the legs though as having anything to do with any sort of potential chest compression asphyxiation though. If chest compression asphyxiation is shown to be a possible cause leading to death, then Chauvin and the officer in the middle holding George down would be the ones putting the pressure for that chest compression. So as you said, it does matter in terms of causation if asphyxiation through chest compression is proven in court.

The main reason it is also an issue is because it is much easier to prove asphyxiation through the neck area than it is through chest compression. The neck is soft tissue and easily bruises with pressure enough to cause asphyxiation. The chest, not so much.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
So when I got picked for a jury
jnHWXN4.gif
for a domestic dispute between an African-American woman and her African immigrant boyfriend, during voir dire I watched the defense attorney chuck a woman for having worked a spousal abuse hotline and the prosecutor chuck every African -American he came to in the jury pool.

I think I was the last chosen because they had used all their strikes by the time they got to me.

(Or maybe I was just the biggest dumb shit because they made me foreman
BLOW5do.png
)

When we went to jury deliberations I was shocked at how many had thoroughly made up their minds before we even had a chance to talk as a jury. (The women on the jury universally and for some vehemently sided with the boyfriend)

My other time going through voir dire for a case where a registered sex offender was allegedly a few days late updating his living location after a move (sure glad there was no other more important cases that day) included a potential juror answering “innocent people aren’t arrested”, after being asked if they understood someone is not considered guilty for being arrested.

Needless to say my faith in court system has been a bit shaken.

Last time I got tossed was because I have a criminal justice degree during selection. Having too much knowledge about the judicial process tends to get people tossed for some reason if the strikes haven't all been used.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
It matters with regard to the actions of Derrick Chauvin and his responsibility in the death of George Floyd VS the other officers bearing weight down upon the man.

Well the context that was given was whether he would suffer brain injury should he have survived. For that, the method of denying the brain oxygen doesn't matter.

From a criminal responsibility perspective, this whole mess is very complicated. I think my personal beliefs of what is just would likely conflict with the law, although in both cases a lot may rest with information I don't know, e.g. the states of mind of the officers, the policies and training, and the behavioral norms of the department.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Well the context that was given was whether he would suffer brain injury should he have survived. For that, the method of denying the brain oxygen doesn't matter.

From a criminal responsibility perspective, this whole mess is very complicated. I think my personal beliefs of what is just would likely conflict with the law, although in both cases a lot may rest with information I don't know, e.g. the states of mind of the officers, the policies and training, and the behavioral norms of the department.

My raising the issue was on the perception of the situation that can be construed. As I mentioned, EVERYONE knows that it is "bad" to put pressure on the front of the neck to control anyone and more so for 9 minutes. Everyone knows that doing such an act would result in death and there is no way anyone could "not" know that. Which means it would have to be murder period. It is improper characterization of what happened that can lead to improper opinions of what happened. A knee to the back of the neck only is not going to cause asphyxiation on a stomach down prone person. Chest compression can cause asphyxiation though and that is where the focus of the evidence is going to be and should be for anyone following this case.