Dems keeping the Senate in session all night debating on Iraq

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Let's hope that they spend less time "sticking it to Bush," and more time actually solving the problems, 'k?

ya...

How profound.... except we all know that Bush and his arrogant stupidity is the real problem. He is the spark that starts the fires and there is little doubt in my mind that he will start another one given half a chance.

actually, you're wrong. the real problem is the mess in the middle-east. Bush is nothing more than an obstruction you must surmount or appease in order to solve the real problem in the ME.

Too many of you spend too much time and energy placing blame, rather than brainstorming and articulating solutions to the real problems.

sad that...

People have tried brainstorming with Bush. He won't budge, it's his way or the hiway. He thinks this is what God wants?? Given half a chance he'll have us in a war with Iran.

No, Bush is the real problem. He is either a liar or delusional and can't be trusted. No one wants to work with him, he is the Emperor with no clothes and giving him a free ride for the rest of his term is not a viable option.

I'd have to disagree that Bush is THE problem. I don't know many harsher critics of Bush than myself, but if what you say were true, then eliminating Bush would eliminate the problem. Not so. If any candidate you care to mention wins the next election, and their party has an overwhelming victory, the "problem" still exists. I suppose it comes down to what the "problem" is.

To me, the problem is that we have a vitally important area of the world which is critically unstable. Yes, Bush set the match to the big pile of brush that had gasoline dumped on it, but that pile was there nonetheless waiting for someone to touch it off. Now the Democrats can bring our troops home, but without obstructionist GWB, how will that suddenly make people who hate each other begin a love fest? Anyone who attempts that likely faces assassination. There are too many people who want power and do what is necessary to get it, or at least prevent another from acquiring it. It doesn't get George off the hook, however the scope of the problem goes far beyond him, and no one has any idea how to fix it.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Let's hope that they spend less time "sticking it to Bush," and more time actually solving the problems, 'k?

ya...

How profound.... except we all know that Bush and his arrogant stupidity is the real problem. He is the spark that starts the fires and there is little doubt in my mind that he will start another one given half a chance.

actually, you're wrong. the real problem is the mess in the middle-east. Bush is nothing more than an obstruction you must surmount or appease in order to solve the real problem in the ME.

Too many of you spend too much time and energy placing blame, rather than brainstorming and articulating solutions to the real problems.

sad that...

People have tried brainstorming with Bush. He won't budge, it's his way or the hiway. He thinks this is what God wants?? Given half a chance he'll have us in a war with Iran.

No, Bush is the real problem. He is either a liar or delusional and can't be trusted. No one wants to work with him, he is the Emperor with no clothes and giving him a free ride for the rest of his term is not a viable option.

I'd have to disagree that Bush is THE problem. I don't know many harsher critics of Bush than myself, but if what you say were true, then eliminating Bush would eliminate the problem. Not so. If any candidate you care to mention wins the next election, and their party has an overwhelming victory, the "problem" still exists. I suppose it comes down to what the "problem" is.

To me, the problem is that we have a vitally important area of the world which is critically unstable. Yes, Bush set the match to the big pile of brush that had gasoline dumped on it, but that pile was there nonetheless waiting for someone to touch it off. Now the Democrats can bring our troops home, but without obstructionist GWB, how will that suddenly make people who hate each other begin a love fest? Anyone who attempts that likely faces assassination. There are too many people who want power and do what is necessary to get it, or at least prevent another from acquiring it. It doesn't get George off the hook, however the scope of the problem goes far beyond him, and no one has any idea how to fix it.

Agreed, sadly. Look at Hilary Clinton's quotes on Iraq for a dose of painful reality. Most of the leading candidates have less than ideal (ie; instant full withdrawal) plans for Iraq. What difference is this really from Bush? With Bush or Hilary, we'd both still end up stuck in Iraq for years.

I wouldn't mind hanging around, fixing the country, and all that if it were truly possible. The problem is that it ISN'T possible. Churchill drew the lines of that country somewhat arbitrarily to generate as much internal strife as possible, and nothing we do will change that. The only thing that will stabilize Iraq is another Saddam.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: palehorse74
Let's hope that they spend less time "sticking it to Bush," and more time actually solving the problems, 'k?

ya...

How profound.... except we all know that Bush and his arrogant stupidity is the real problem. He is the spark that starts the fires and there is little doubt in my mind that he will start another one given half a chance.

actually, you're wrong. the real problem is the mess in the middle-east. Bush is nothing more than an obstruction you must surmount or appease in order to solve the real problem in the ME.

Too many of you spend too much time and energy placing blame, rather than brainstorming and articulating solutions to the real problems.

sad that...

People have tried brainstorming with Bush. He won't budge, it's his way or the hiway. He thinks this is what God wants?? Given half a chance he'll have us in a war with Iran.

No, Bush is the real problem. He is either a liar or delusional and can't be trusted. No one wants to work with him, he is the Emperor with no clothes and giving him a free ride for the rest of his term is not a viable option.

I'd have to disagree that Bush is THE problem. I don't know many harsher critics of Bush than myself, but if what you say were true, then eliminating Bush would eliminate the problem. Not so. If any candidate you care to mention wins the next election, and their party has an overwhelming victory, the "problem" still exists. I suppose it comes down to what the "problem" is.

To me, the problem is that we have a vitally important area of the world which is critically unstable. Yes, Bush set the match to the big pile of brush that had gasoline dumped on it, but that pile was there nonetheless waiting for someone to touch it off. Now the Democrats can bring our troops home, but without obstructionist GWB, how will that suddenly make people who hate each other begin a love fest? Anyone who attempts that likely faces assassination. There are too many people who want power and do what is necessary to get it, or at least prevent another from acquiring it. It doesn't get George off the hook, however the scope of the problem goes far beyond him, and no one has any idea how to fix it.

Bush is a big part of the problem and needs to be stopped and hopefully punished. That said , yes the ME is a tinderbox. It has been for years and years and our invlovment hasn't helped. Indeed, it seems the more engaged we become the worse things get.

I look at Iraq as us mowing the weeds. The problem is the more you mow them the faster they grow. The high cost of oil combined with our involment is like fertilizing and watering the weeds after you mowed them. It makes no sense and it's clear to me we used a faulty strategy from the start, so there is no sense in pursuing it any further unless we are really serious about doing it right and that would entail a major conflict at the very least. After all, the whole world wants that energy source. I don't think things are that bad yet. For example, I look at the houses that were being built by the scores... and they are getting bigger and bigger and bigger. I think there are a lot of places we can cut back. I remember when you couldn't sell a gas guzzling muscle car and I wouldn't be a bit surprised at seeing a lot of these big homes suffer the same fate as muscle cars before long.

I think we need to back off and see what happens. In the meantime we can pursue some strategies here. Put our money into wind energy, bio fuel research, even nuclear power (I don't like the nuclear option, but don't see a way around it at this point). There are also other sources of energy that we need to investigate and develop.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: 2Xtreme21

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Dream on... which is what the Democrats should be doing... go to bed, nothing is going to happen.

The monsters that keep this war going should lose lots of sleep. It matters not that anything happens.

I'd assume every country is responsible for their actions, if you disagree then yeah, the US should pull out.

IMHO you fix what you broke, if i go into your house and break something you'd expect me to fix it would you not?

You could ask for help but that would mean sharing a piece of the cake with other companies and nuh-uh, no can do.

So you stay there and take care of the crap you created, sounds VERY fair to me.

Are you over there fighting and dying for nothing? Didn't think so. This isn't our mistake either... this is Bush's mistake and he should be crucified for it. I'm sick of our country-- our PEOPLE being slaves to Bush's little fantasy land.

Will Iraq be unstable when we leave? Yes, it's inevitable. Whether we pull out now, 2008, 2010, the second we do, the very terrorists we brought in with the toppling of Saddam's regieme will take power. The only question is, how many of our brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, sons, daughters, etc. will have to die until we realize this?

My suggestion is that the US fix this alone, it's your fucking idea, not the UK's, not Spains, not Austrailias and no one else but you and you know what..... (crap, i forgot Poland)

In a democracy you take the consequences for the leaders you choose even if YOU didn't elect him.

You want to shake responsibility? Fine, don't go enlist but the US as a country is damn well responsible for this war and the population, whether you like it or not, is also responsible for it.

It wasn't anyone but the US that promised a land of stability, it wasn't anyone but the US who promised anything at all.

Now you want to go back and retract the promises you made? What does that make you as a nation and that means you as a citizen too?

You make the assumption, as I once did, that it can be fixed. Time and events, I think, now say otherwise. Iraq is Humpty Dumpty and all of King George's men can't put it back together. I think it's time for Iraq to go where it's going on its own power. I believe what we are doing, in actual reality, is destroying the moral of our own military. We are abusing the patriotism of our troops. I think it's time we start to really put them before other ideals or we will wind up unable to defend anything at all. I think it's time Bush be forced to eat the sh!t he created by having failure painted forever in history on his name. I think our soldiers die because he seeks to avoid just that, and to no avail.

The war is already lost because it's opposed by the American people. You can't substitute wishes for facts.