Dems discussing siezure of 401K's, Individual Retirement Accounts; convert them into Social Security managed accounts

Dec 30, 2004
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RALEIGH ? Democrats in the U.S. House have been conducting hearings on proposals to confiscate workers? personal retirement accounts ? including 401(k)s and IRAs ? and convert them to accounts managed by the Social Security Administration. Triggered by the financial crisis the past two months, the hearings reportedly were meant to stem losses incurred by many workers and retirees whose 401(k) and IRA balances have been shrinking rapidly. The testimony of Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York, in hearings Oct. 7 drew the most attention and criticism. Testifying for the House Committee on Education and Labor, Ghilarducci proposed that the government eliminate tax breaks for 401(k) and similar retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and confiscate workers? retirement plan accounts and convert them to universal Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs) managed by the Social Security Administration. Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., chairman of the House Committee on Education and Labor, in prepared remarks for the hearing on ?The Impact of the Financial Crisis on Workers? Retirement Security,? blamed Wall Street for the financial crisis and said his committee will ?strengthen and protect Americans? 401(k)s, pensions, and other retirement plans? and the ?Democratic Congress will continue to conduct this much-needed oversight on behalf of the American people.? Currently, 401(k) plans allow Americans to invest pretax money and their employers match up to a defined percentage, which not only increases workers? retirement savings but also reduces their annual income tax. The balances are fully inheritable, subject to income tax, meaning workers pass on their wealth to their heirs, unlike Social Security. Even when they leave an employer and go to one that doesn?t offer a 401(k) or pension, workers can transfer their balances to a qualified IRA. Mandating Equality Ghilarducci?s plan first appeared in a paper for the Economic Policy Institute: Agenda for Shared Prosperity on Nov. 20, 2007, in which she said GRAs will rescue the flawed American retirement income system (www.sharedprosperity.org/bp204/bp204.pdf). The current retirement system, Ghilarducci said, ?exacerbates income and wealth inequalities? because tax breaks for voluntary retirement accounts are ?skewed to the wealthy because it is easier for them to save, and because they receive bigger tax breaks when they do.? Lauding GRAs as a way to effectively increase retirement savings, Ghilarducci wrote that savings incentives are unequal for rich and poor families because tax deferrals ?provide a much larger ?carrot? to wealthy families than to middle-class families ? and none whatsoever for families too poor to owe taxes.? GRAs would guarantee a fixed 3 percent annual rate of return, although later in her article Ghilarducci explained that participants would not ?earn a 3% real return in perpetuity.? In place of tax breaks workers now receive for contributions and thus a lower tax rate, workers would receive $600 annually from the government, inflation-adjusted. For low-income workers whose annual contributions are less than $600, the government would deposit whatever amount it would take to equal the minimum $600 for all participants. In a radio interview with Kirby Wilbur in Seattle on Oct. 27, 2008, Ghilarducci explained that her proposal doesn?t eliminate the tax breaks, rather, ?I?m just rearranging the tax breaks that are available now for 401(k)s and spreading ? spreading the wealth.? All workers would have 5 percent of their annual pay deducted from their paychecks and deposited to the GRA. They would still be paying Social Security and Medicare taxes, as would the employers. The GRA contribution would be shared equally by the worker and the employee. Employers no longer would be able to write off their contributions. Any capital gains would be taxable year-on-year. Analysts point to another disturbing part of the plan. With a GRA, workers could bequeath only half of their account balances to their heirs, unlike full balances from existing 401(k) and IRA accounts. For workers who die after retiring, they could bequeath just their own contributions plus the interest but minus any benefits received and minus the employer contributions. Another justification for Ghilarducci?s plan is to eliminate investment risk. In her testimony, Ghilarducci said, ?humans often lack the foresight, discipline, and investing skills required to sustain a savings plan.? She cited the 2004 HSBC global survey on the Future of Retirement, in which she claimed that ?a third of Americans wanted the government to force them to save more for retirement.? What the survey actually reported was that 33 percent of Americans wanted the government to ?enforce additional private savings,? a vastly different meaning than mandatory government-run savings. Of the four potential sources of retirement support, which were government, employer, family, and self, the majority of Americans said ?self? was the most important contributor, followed by ?government.? When broken out by family income, low-income U.S. households said the ?government? was the most important retirement support, whereas high-income families ranked ?government? last and ?self? first (www.hsbc.com/retirement). On Oct. 22, The Wall Street Journal reported that the Argentinean government had seized all private pension and retirement accounts to fund government programs and to address a ballooning deficit. Fearing an economic collapse, foreign investors quickly pulled out, forcing the Argentinean stock market to shut down several times. More than 10 years ago, nationalization of private savings sent Argentina?s economy into a long-term downward spiral. Income and Wealth Redistribution The majority of witness testimony during recent hearings before the House Committee on Education and Labor showed that congressional Democrats intend to address income and wealth inequality through redistribution. On July 31, 2008, Robert Greenstein, executive director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, testified before the subcommittee on workforce protections that ?from the standpoint of equal treatment of people with different incomes, there is a fundamental flaw? in tax code incentives because they are ?provided in the form of deductions, exemptions, and exclusions rather than in the form of refundable tax credits.? Even people who don?t pay taxes should get money from the government, paid for by higher-income Americans, he said. ?There is no obvious reason why lower-income taxpayers or people who do not file income taxes should get smaller incentives (or no tax incentives at all),? Greenstein said. ?Moving to refundable tax credits for promoting socially worthwhile activities would be an important step toward enhancing progressivity in the tax code in a way that would improve economic efficiency and performance at the same time,? Greenstein said, and ?reducing barriers to labor organizing, preserving the real value of the minimum wage, and the other workforce security concerns . . . would contribute to an economy with less glaring and sharply widening inequality.? When asked whether committee members seriously were considering Ghilarducci?s proposal for GSAs, Aaron Albright, press secretary for the Committee on Education and Labor, said Miller and other members were listening to all ideas. Miller?s biggest priority has been on legislation aimed at greater transparency in 401(k)s and other retirement plan administration, specifically regarding fees, Albright said, and he sent a link to a Fox News interview of Miller on Oct. 24, 2008, to show that the congressman had not made a decision. After repeated questions asked by Neil Cavuto of Fox News, Miller said he would not be in favor of ?killing the 401(k)? or of ?killing the tax advantages for 401(k)s.? Arguing against liberal prescriptions, William Beach, director of the Center for Data Analysis at the Heritage Foundation, testified on Oct. 24 that the ?roots of the current crisis are firmly planted in public policy mistakes? by the Federal Reserve and Congress. He cautioned Congress against raising taxes, increasing burdensome regulations, or withdrawing from international product or capital markets. ?Congress can ill afford to repeat the awesome errors of its predecessor in the early days of the Great Depression,? Beach said. Instead, Beach said, Congress could best address the financial crisis by making the tax reductions of 2001 and 2003 permanent, stopping dependence on demand-side stimulus, lowering the corporate profits tax, and reducing or eliminating taxes on capital gains and dividends. Testifying before the same committee in early October, Jerry Bramlett, president and CEO of BenefitStreet, Inc., an independent 401(k) plan administrator, said one of the best ways to ensure retirement security would be to have the U.S. Department of Labor develop educational materials for workers so they could make better investment decisions, not exchange equity investments in retirement accounts for Treasury bills, as proposed in the GSAs. Should Sen. Barack Obama win the presidency, congressional Democrats might have stronger support for their ?spreading the wealth? agenda. On Oct. 27, the American Thinker posted a video of an interview with Obama on public radio station WBEZ-FM from 2001. In the interview, Obama said, ?The Supreme Court never ventured into the issues of redistribution of wealth, and of more basic issues such as political and economic justice in society.? The Constitution says only what ?the states can?t do to you. Says what the Federal government can?t do to you,? and Obama added that the Warren Court wasn?t that radical. Although in 2001 Obama said he was not ?optimistic about bringing major redistributive change through the courts,? as president, he would likely have the opportunity to appoint one or more Supreme Court justices. ?The real tragedy of the civil rights movement was, um, because the civil rights movement became so court focused that I think there was a tendency to lose track of the political and community organizing and activities on the ground that are able to put together the actual coalition of powers through which you bring about redistributive change,? Obama said. Karen McMahan is a contributing editor of Carolina Journal.

Bitterness and envy are powerful feelings. Remember, for years the democrats have been busing retirement home folks to polls telling them if the Republicans get elected, they're going to take away their Social Security. Now, imagine the turnout in the years to come when they say "If the Republicans get elected, you'll have to pay for your own retirement!"

edit: oops, sorry about the formatting guys. Just click through to read the original.
Time for an offshore bank account.
 

quest55720

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2004
1,339
0
0
If this stuff passes either the house or congress I pull my 401k money. I would rather pay a penalty than have the government steal it. I will never vote for anyone who votes yes on anything remotely like this. I just love the democrats they love to punish those who save and plan for the future to give to those who piss away all they have.
 

OneOfTheseDays

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2000
7,052
0
0
The most important thing going on in Congress right now is that we have lively discussion and debate as to what we need to do to fix our problem. Our entire nation needs to be having these kind of debates, instead of the same ol' ideological debates over abortion rights, gun control, etc. This is a good thing that we're talking about fresh new ideas even though clearly something like this would never get through Congress.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
1
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So Congress is *listening* to testimony from some professor and some unrelated think tank, and you infer from this that the Democrats are proposing seizing everyone's 401K? Where in the hell do you get that?

The testimony of Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York, in hearings Oct. 7 drew the most attention and criticism. Testifying for the House Committee on Education and Labor, Ghilarducci proposed that the government eliminate tax breaks for 401(k) and similar retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and confiscate workers retirement plan accounts and convert them to universal Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs) managed by the Social Security Administration.

And:

On July 31, 2008, Robert Greenstein, executive director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, testified before the subcommittee on workforce protections that from the standpoint of equal treatment of people with different incomes, there is a fundamental flaw in tax code incentives because they are provided in the form of deductions, exemptions, and exclusions rather than in the form of refundable tax credits.?

Christ, you jump to more conclusions that Rush Limbaugh, himself.
 

OrByte

Diamond Member
Jul 21, 2000
9,303
144
106
the article is not too subtly partisan.

I cant draw any conclusions on anything from the OP. sorry.
 
Dec 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So Congress is *listening* to testimony from some professor and some unrelated think tank, and you infer from this that the Democrats are proposing seizing everyone's 401K? Where in the hell do you get that?

The testimony of Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York, in hearings Oct. 7 drew the most attention and criticism. Testifying for the House Committee on Education and Labor, Ghilarducci proposed that the government eliminate tax breaks for 401(k) and similar retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and confiscate workers retirement plan accounts and convert them to universal Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs) managed by the Social Security Administration.

And:

On July 31, 2008, Robert Greenstein, executive director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, testified before the subcommittee on workforce protections that from the standpoint of equal treatment of people with different incomes, there is a fundamental flaw in tax code incentives because they are provided in the form of deductions, exemptions, and exclusions rather than in the form of refundable tax credits.?

Christ, you jump to more conclusions that Rush Limbaugh, himself.

You know, that's a possibility I did not consider.
Is congress required to listen to people that want to be heard? How would someone as left-leaning as Ghilarducci be allowed to speak to congress?
 

midway

Senior member
Oct 22, 2004
301
0
0
Time to get out my jump to conclusions mat, wonder which one I'll land on this time!
 
Dec 10, 2005
28,186
12,857
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Originally posted by: soccerballtux
You know, that's a possibility I did not consider.
Is congress required to listen to people that want to be heard? How would someone as left-leaning as Ghilarducci be allowed to speak to congress?

Maybe they are just calling experts to find out all of their options?
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,858
3,290
136
here we go again. nice cherry picking of a single idea presented among hundreds.

Pelosi clearly stated that the House wanted to hear every perspective so they did not miss a thing.

all other threads like this one have been locked for being so innacurate.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
You know, that's a possibility I did not consider.
Is congress required to listen to people that want to be heard? How would someone as left-leaning as Ghilarducci be allowed to speak to congress?

Maybe they are just calling experts to find out all of their options?

If you would listen to this "professor" speak you wouldn't want her anywhere near congress. She's insane and literally thinks 401k plans are stealing from the government.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
I can't read that. With its formatting, all in a single paragraph, I don't care if it's a warning that I'm to report to my labor camp by the end of the week; I can't read that. Cliffs?
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Topic Title: Dems discussing siezure of 401K's, Individual Retirement Accounts; convert them into Social Security managed accounts

Topic Summary: Socialism threat level back to Red?

Bitterness and envy are powerful feelings. Remember, for years the democrats have been busing retirement home folks to polls telling them if the Republicans get elected, they're going to take away their Social Security.

Now, imagine the turnout in the years to come when they say "If the Republicans get elected, you'll have to pay for your own retirement!"

Time for an offshore bank account.

YES WE CAN!!!

Offshore account will not work, we will find them and confiscate them and/or kick your non-contributing ass out of here.

 

midway

Senior member
Oct 22, 2004
301
0
0
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
You know, that's a possibility I did not consider.
Is congress required to listen to people that want to be heard? How would someone as left-leaning as Ghilarducci be allowed to speak to congress?

Maybe they are just calling experts to find out all of their options?

If you would listen to this "professor" speak you wouldn't want her anywhere near congress. She's insane and literally thinks 401k plans are stealing from the government.

By letting her have her say you prevent her from being able to scream censorship.
 

alien42

Lifer
Nov 28, 2004
12,858
3,290
136
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Brainonska511
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
You know, that's a possibility I did not consider.
Is congress required to listen to people that want to be heard? How would someone as left-leaning as Ghilarducci be allowed to speak to congress?

Maybe they are just calling experts to find out all of their options?

If you would listen to this "professor" speak you wouldn't want her anywhere near congress. She's insane and literally thinks 401k plans are stealing from the government.

we voted that ignorance out on Nov 4th. every viewpoint should be heard and objectively discussed, especially with the current economic situation.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
116
Time for the GOP to bust out those tin-foil party hats.

Come back with an objective source; Carolina Journal = Newsmax and the rest of the kook sites.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,701
6,258
126
Originally posted by: Skoorb
I can't read that. With its formatting, all in a single paragraph, I don't care if it's a warning that I'm to report to my labor camp by the end of the week; I can't read that. Cliffs?

Yup

Wall of Text = Ignore
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Time for the GOP to bust out those tin-foil party hats.

Come back with an objective source; Carolina Journal = Newsmax and the rest of the kook sites.

This.

If you scroll down to the bottom of the page you will see that the Carolina Business Journal is a product of the John Locke Foundation, part of an ultra-conservative empire being run by a gentleman by the name of Art Pope.

He makes ol' Jesse look like a Leftist sometimes ... :D

Welcome to North Carolina Politics 101.
 

rudder

Lifer
Nov 9, 2000
19,441
86
91
This would never happen. It would be tied up in the courts until the Democrats lost all power in the government.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,540
9,760
136
Yeah, I?d distance myself from this plan too.

I?d also wonder who invited these speakers to share such ideas. We need some torches and pitchforks.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Yeah, I?d distance myself from this plan too.

I?d also wonder who invited these speakers to share such ideas. We need some torches and pitchforks.

Barney Franke.
 

RichardE

Banned
Dec 31, 2005
10,246
2
0
Originally posted by: soccerballtux
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
So Congress is *listening* to testimony from some professor and some unrelated think tank, and you infer from this that the Democrats are proposing seizing everyone's 401K? Where in the hell do you get that?

The testimony of Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York, in hearings Oct. 7 drew the most attention and criticism. Testifying for the House Committee on Education and Labor, Ghilarducci proposed that the government eliminate tax breaks for 401(k) and similar retirement accounts, such as IRAs, and confiscate workers retirement plan accounts and convert them to universal Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs) managed by the Social Security Administration.

And:

On July 31, 2008, Robert Greenstein, executive director of the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, testified before the subcommittee on workforce protections that from the standpoint of equal treatment of people with different incomes, there is a fundamental flaw in tax code incentives because they are provided in the form of deductions, exemptions, and exclusions rather than in the form of refundable tax credits.?

Christ, you jump to more conclusions that Rush Limbaugh, himself.

You know, that's a possibility I did not consider.
Is congress required to listen to people that want to be heard? How would someone as left-leaning as Ghilarducci be allowed to speak to congress?

They let Stevens and Giuliani talk
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Heh if the democrats ever confiscated 401k's from people the next election would be such a resounding defeat JPeyton would understand the true meaning of a party that disbands.

I'd predict for starters all democrats up for reelection in the senate followed by the republicans gaining control of 434 seats in the house.
Just out of hate the people let Pelosi survive to live in the house surrounded by not a single allie.
 

marincounty

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2005
3,227
5
76
I like the Republicans idea even better, let's let people invest their soc security funds in the stock market so they can make much better returns.......