Democrats...

[Aimster]

They want our troops to come home. Well dont we all?

If they actually go ahead with it then what is going to happen to Iraq? I'll tell you what. It is going to turn int a place where the violence is 5x higher than it is now.

women raped constantly. Mass murders. It will be disaster.

of course on the plus side what goes on inside Iraq does not effect us at all once we are gone.

Not to blame the democrats for an illegal war started by republicians, but I think they need to realize that Bush Fd us all up and we have to stay with his mistake. We cant run from his mistake.

 

[myocardia]

Hmmm, so what you're saying is that if we hurry up and leave that country alone, like we should have to begin with, then it will hurry up and return to being exactly like it was before we invaded them. That sounds fair to me.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Aimster
They want our troops to come home. Well dont we all?

If they actually go ahead with it then what is going to happen to Iraq? I'll tell you what. It is going to turn int a place where the violence is 5x higher than it is now.

women raped constantly. Mass murders. It will be disaster.

Then maybe the Iraqis would have to step up to put a stop to it or suffer the consequences of their inciviliaty.

 

[catnap1972]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Aimster
They want our troops to come home. Well dont we all?

If they actually go ahead with it then what is going to happen to Iraq? I'll tell you what. It is going to turn int a place where the violence is 5x higher than it is now.

women raped constantly. Mass murders. It will be disaster.

Then maybe the Iraqis would have to step up to put a stop to it or suffer the consequences of their inciviliaty.

Exactly!

"As long as the stoopid Americans are getting killed, why should we (Iraqis) do anything?"

 

[tweaker2]

just look at the general laundry list that bush and pals created because the plan they slapped together didn't include anything past the point of "being greeted with a floral parade down saadoun st."

remove all obstructions that bush and his pnac agenda is creating (get bush out of the way)
stop getting our troops killed
squash the insurgency
stop sectarian violence
secure the borders
rebuild infrastructure
get oil flowing without US oil interests taking a cut off the top.
prop up puppet gov't
stand up iraqi security forces asap
win the hearts and minds of the iraqi people
get the folks back in the US to pull together and present a united front in dealing with the iraqi quagmire
get ubl
squash revived insurgency in afghanistan
remove crooked thieving US contractors that are being shielded by the bush administration

and that's just some of the bigger issues that need to be dealt with to start to make things right.

how the dems fit into this picture imo has a lot to do with how much the repubs and bush are willing to give up to make things right, because it's the repubs that controlled everything that was happening behind the scenes that drove the war in the direction it took.

it seems to me that the intricate web of agendas that steered the course of how our gov't was dealing with this problem had nothing to do with fighting the war on terror. to me, alot of what's going on over there has more to do with how much of an influence big business has over bush in how he's been handling the war in iraq.

imo, alot of the problems we have to deal with now is the result of what bush and his buddies considered to be the top priorities in the takeover of iraq. surely it wasn't to seek justice for 9/11, or we would have stayed in afghanistan until that mission was completed. nor could it be any of those reasons that bush and his pals lied about to actually get us to back his invasion of iraq.

so figuring out why bush sidetracked us into iraq before we cut and run out of afghanistan to oust saddam is a good place to start the ball rolling on our way back to fixing the damage that bush and friends have caused us. i mean, we gotta start somewhere, and that to me is as good a place as any.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Aimster
They want our troops to come home. Well dont we all?

If they actually go ahead with it then what is going to happen to Iraq? I'll tell you what. It is going to turn int a place where the violence is 5x higher than it is now.

women raped constantly. Mass murders. It will be disaster.

Then maybe the Iraqis would have to step up to put a stop to it or suffer the consequences of their inciviliaty.

Precisely. Personally, I expect the situation won't be nearly as bad as some people predict, and the violence will wind down once we aren't there. Basically our presence is making it impossible for the natural order of things to proceed.

Iraq won't end up being the country Pres Bush tried to make it be, but that's because there isn't any country like that anywhere in the world, including the USA.

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: Aimster
They want our troops to come home. Well dont we all?

If they actually go ahead with it then what is going to happen to Iraq? I'll tell you what. It is going to turn int a place where the violence is 5x higher than it is now.

women raped constantly. Mass murders. It will be disaster.

of course on the plus side what goes on inside Iraq does not effect us at all once we are gone.

Not to blame the democrats for an illegal war started by republicians, but I think they need to realize that Bush Fd us all up and we have to stay with his mistake. We cant run from his mistake.

Maybe, but nobody will care or know about because then no Amricans will be killed and Iraq will just be like any other 3rd world sh1thole that is ignored by world news despite massive violence. Then every so often there will be a plea to the UN and the next day it'll be forgotten again.

 

[Lemon law]

Our problem is far worse than an Iraq with 5x the violence. If we leave now, the entire mid-east is likely
to go up in similar violence taking the entire world's oil supply and economies with it. All so GWB could put war time Pres on his resume.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Aimster
They want our troops to come home. Well dont we all?

If they actually go ahead with it then what is going to happen to Iraq? I'll tell you what. It is going to turn int a place where the violence is 5x higher than it is now.

women raped constantly. Mass murders. It will be disaster.

of course on the plus side what goes on inside Iraq does not effect us at all once we are gone.

Not to blame the democrats for an illegal war started by republicians, but I think they need to realize that Bush Fd us all up and we have to stay with his mistake. We cant run from his mistake.

Staying there isn't doing anything...

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Aimster
They want our troops to come home. Well dont we all?

If they actually go ahead with it then what is going to happen to Iraq? I'll tell you what. It is going to turn int a place where the violence is 5x higher than it is now.

women raped constantly. Mass murders. It will be disaster.

of course on the plus side what goes on inside Iraq does not effect us at all once we are gone.

Not to blame the democrats for an illegal war started by republicians, but I think they need to realize that Bush Fd us all up and we have to stay with his mistake.

We cant run from his mistake.

Show me in the Constitution where it say we are the sole World Policeman.

It's clear the Iraqi's want to fend for themselves as they resist the U.S. presence, so let let them fend for themselves.

The big bad evil Saddam and his sons are no longer there so they should be fine according to "The War President" after he changed his tune about WMD.

Now resident Republicans are attempting to change their tunes in here as they get coached by Rush and the GOP talking points.

Luckily enough American people have woken up on the Republicans and are now able to keep the GOP brainwashing out of their heads and I am very grateful for that.

 

[CaptnKirk]

Since the Democrats don't actually take over anything until January 3rd, anything that does happen is by the GOP with the prodding of the Democrats.
Thet can 'advise' but only the GOP can make it actually happen.
The GOP's 'Cut and Run' policy is nothing more than an attempt to shift responsibility to their successors and appear to be blameless.
That is a shameful end for the failure of the Lock-Step, Rubber-Stamp GOP Bush Agenda - only he and his 'Vulcans' are to blame.

 

[fskimospy]

I think the main flaw with this reasoning is the assumption that our troops staying in Iraq makes any difference. I have seen zero evidence that our presence there is leading to a stable democratic government, or that they will do so at any point in the future.

With that unfortunate fact in mind... now what do you do? If we aren't making things better, and we're wasting money and lives, we should stop.

The questions here are all political ones now I think, Iraq is like the hot potato... nobody wants to be left holding it when time runs out, because they will get the blame for this disaster. The funny thing is that the disaster happened years ago, we just haven't realized it yet.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: catnap1972

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Aimster
They want our troops to come home. Well dont we all?

If they actually go ahead with it then what is going to happen to Iraq? I'll tell you what. It is going to turn int a place where the violence is 5x higher than it is now.

women raped constantly. Mass murders. It will be disaster.

Then maybe the Iraqis would have to step up to put a stop to it or suffer the consequences of their inciviliaty.

Exactly!

"As long as the stoopid Americans are getting killed, why should we (Iraqis) do anything?"

That would work if we "stoopid Americans" were taking the brunt of the casualties. But as you can see the Iraqi's themselves are probably dying at rates of 10:1 or higher to themselves.

 

[Arkaign]

Yep, if the US pulls out, the country will stabilize under the bootheel of whatever strongman climbs to the top (on the bodies of his enemies). It will be a bloodbath at first, and then order will begin to form.

I do not think that anything in Iraq can threaten surrounding countries stability

They have no WMD
They have no credible land army (unless we leave them too much equipment, even then it's a bit sparse)
With such a shiite majority, it's likely that the new system would be an Islamic state.

In any case, the very presense of the US military and attached agencies is preventing the progression of self-sustenence, because of the near-unified hatred of the westerner's presence. Further loss of life and huge spending is worse than useless, it's wasteful.

 

[palehorse]

short quiz:
Q: When a power vaccuum is created, what happens?
A: Someone steps in and fills the vaccuum, and it's usually the least desirable candidate for the job.

Just await and see folks: if the U.S and Coalition pull out of Iraq prematurely, you are going to see some fireworks, and not the pretty kind you catch every year on July 4th. Iran, Syria, and Saudi will be tugging on th Iraqi people with barbed wire leashes, and the end result may threaten the entire globe.

We MUST find another way to resolve the ethnic and religious issues plaguing Iraq, and this "new plan" will involve our presence in Iraq for many years to come. If it doesnt, then whoever pulls our troops out will have enough blood on their hands to make Saddam and Bush look like Girl Scouts. We will be dreaming of the "good ole days when Bush was running things." Scary eh?

mark my words.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
short quiz:
Q: When a power vaccuum is created, what happens?
A: Someone steps in and fills the vaccuum, and it's usually the least desirable candidate for the job.

Just await and see folks: if the U.S and Coalition pull out of Iraq prematurely, you are going to see some fireworks, and not the pretty kind you catch every year on July 4th. Iran, Syria, and Saudi will be tugging on th Iraqi people with barbed wire leashes, and the end result may threaten the entire globe.

We MUST find another way to resolve the ethnic and religious issues plaguing Iraq, and this "new plan" will involve our presence in Iraq for many years to come. If it doesnt, then whoever pulls our troops out will have enough blood on their hands to make Saddam and Bush look like Girl Scouts. We will be dreaming of the "good ole days when Bush was running things." Scary eh?

mark my words.

The Power Vacuum already exists. That's why the violence is growing and has been for years.

 

[tomywishbone]

We will leave, and then the US & the world will deal with the consequences. It will play out exactly like the Soviet v. Afghanistan insanity.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: palehorse74
short quiz:
Q: When a power vaccuum is created, what happens?
A: Someone steps in and fills the vaccuum, and it's usually the least desirable candidate for the job.

Just await and see folks: if the U.S and Coalition pull out of Iraq prematurely, you are going to see some fireworks, and not the pretty kind you catch every year on July 4th. Iran, Syria, and Saudi will be tugging on th Iraqi people with barbed wire leashes, and the end result may threaten the entire globe.

We MUST find another way to resolve the ethnic and religious issues plaguing Iraq, and this "new plan" will involve our presence in Iraq for many years to come. If it doesnt, then whoever pulls our troops out will have enough blood on their hands to make Saddam and Bush look like Girl Scouts. We will be dreaming of the "good ole days when Bush was running things." Scary eh?

mark my words.

The Power Vacuum already exists. That's why the violence is growing and has been for years.

exactly. which is why we must remain in place in order to prevent Iran or another extremist entity from stepping in.

 

[BoomerD]

Well, then obviously, the only alternative, is to kill EVERYONE in Iraq, and turn it into Texas/east...That way, Chevron, Exxon, and the other "good-ol-boys can pump all that there oil out, and not have to deal with unfriendly governments who want a piece of the pie...


When did the USA become the world's cops? WHY the hell should our soldiers be dying in some 3rd-world sh!thole that isn't a threat to us? When the fvck are we going to learn that democracy can't be forced on someone, they have to want it, and earn it? We should have been smart enough to learn from the Soviet's ass-whoopin in Afghanistan, and MAYBE Chimpy McFlightsuit should have listened to his daddy and NOT actually attacked Iraq...Daddy certainly was right, and it seems to me, this war is taking FAR longer than the 6 weeks, 2 months, (I certainly don't see it lasting 6 months) that we were promised back in 03...
I don't claim to know what the solution to the problem is, and I don't get paid to come up with one, but I agree that just pulling out and leaving the shitstorm we created isn't the answer. If we do that, the inmates will run the asylum, and will end up as a major terrorist training camp. The world thinks we have a terrorist problem now? Just wait...

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: palehorse74
short quiz:
Q: When a power vaccuum is created, what happens?
A: Someone steps in and fills the vaccuum, and it's usually the least desirable candidate for the job.

Just await and see folks: if the U.S and Coalition pull out of Iraq prematurely, you are going to see some fireworks, and not the pretty kind you catch every year on July 4th. Iran, Syria, and Saudi will be tugging on th Iraqi people with barbed wire leashes, and the end result may threaten the entire globe.

We MUST find another way to resolve the ethnic and religious issues plaguing Iraq, and this "new plan" will involve our presence in Iraq for many years to come. If it doesnt, then whoever pulls our troops out will have enough blood on their hands to make Saddam and Bush look like Girl Scouts. We will be dreaming of the "good ole days when Bush was running things." Scary eh?

mark my words.

The Power Vacuum already exists. That's why the violence is growing and has been for years.

exactly. which is why we must remain in place in order to prevent Iran or another extremist entity from stepping in.

Now that's the trap that Bushistas have been trapped in for quite some time. Everyone with a clue has acknowledged that Iran, Syria, Sunni-insurgents, Shia militia, and random criminal thugs/terrorists have ALREADY stepped in.

Accordingly, it's a specious argument to say FEWER or the total ABSENCE of US troops is the only thing keeping Iraq out of the hands of the 'evildoers.' The ultimate questions is about whether it's too late to make it 'better?' But even if the answer is NO, you still need a plan(s), the means to execute it, and d@mn good backup plans when your first option doesn't work.

There's NO WAY Bush or the GOP will ever get the skunkesque stink of Iraq off them. It is a problem they CREATED. And after 3 years of toking and blowing smoke about 'progress', it's become obvious even to the party faithful that Iraq is FUBAR with no easy (or likely to be effective) options.

IMO, Democrats only lose this one in the context of being too cozy with Bush plans . . . whatever they may be.

1) Kucinich - If there's an immediate withdrawal of troops with the goal of leaving Iraq within 18 months and Iraq gets worse, it's Bush's fault.
2) Murtha/Biden - If there's a phased redeployment and Iraq gets worse, it's Bush's fault.
3) McCain - If there's a stepped up US presence including MORE troops and Iraq gets worse, it's Bush's fault.

If anything changes and Iraq improves, Democrats will take credit for forcing Bush to change course. If anything changes and Iraq goes further down the drain, Democrats will claim Bush resisted their most 'ambitious' changes in Iraq policy.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: palehorse74
short quiz:
Q: When a power vaccuum is created, what happens?
A: Someone steps in and fills the vaccuum, and it's usually the least desirable candidate for the job.

Just await and see folks: if the U.S and Coalition pull out of Iraq prematurely, you are going to see some fireworks, and not the pretty kind you catch every year on July 4th. Iran, Syria, and Saudi will be tugging on th Iraqi people with barbed wire leashes, and the end result may threaten the entire globe.

We MUST find another way to resolve the ethnic and religious issues plaguing Iraq, and this "new plan" will involve our presence in Iraq for many years to come. If it doesnt, then whoever pulls our troops out will have enough blood on their hands to make Saddam and Bush look like Girl Scouts. We will be dreaming of the "good ole days when Bush was running things." Scary eh?

mark my words.

The Power Vacuum already exists. That's why the violence is growing and has been for years.

exactly. which is why we must remain in place in order to prevent Iran or another extremist entity from stepping in.

I don't think that peace in Iraq is possible with the US present. Under any circumstances, beyond possibly partitioning.

I think the threat of destabilization is vastly overstated, as long as other power players in the region (Pakistan, the Saudis, Russia, China) state that they will accept no further invasions or provocations during the stabilization process. Remember that most of the Iraqi chaos right now is from Iraqi v Iraqi, and Iraqi v US.

I don't think that Iran has the desire to embroil themselves into the chaos that plagues Iraq, and there is a fundamental racial difference as well (Persian v Arab). Also, Iran has been much more responsible in terms of foreign policy than the US has over the past 50 years of sticking our butts into every corner of the globe.

We have quite enough business to attend to domestically without causing trouble everywhere we turn.

For now, all is conjecture anyway, I could be wrong, and the Iraq vacuum could domino WW3. For all we know, our continued presence there could trigger the same thing. Hypothetical scenarios could be easily drawn for support of either idea. Undoubtedly, they have, in the State Dept, in Putin's staff, etc, etc.

We will have to wait and see. I firmly and publically support a rapid withdrawal of US forces. In a region that has writhed in violence for eons, letting our soldiers get slaughtered for a decade won't even make a dent. It will accomplish nothing but wasted money and pointless death. Of course, it will continue to feed the bank accounts of a few powerful people, and that makes it all worth it.

 

[HomerJS]

I have a question...

Since the Iraqies didn't ask us to invade, do we have the right to demand they "step up to the plate"? We may be obligated to stay and fix Bush's mess.

 

[RightIsWrong]

I've been thinking about something that really has me miffed.

I have seen nothing but all of this dribble from those on the right hand side of the spectrum about how the Dems will be out of power in two years because they will have shown that they are unable to do anything with regards to Iraq, size of government, SS, medicare, etc. etc.

Here is the mystifying part......

Why do they think that the citizenry was so willing to give the GOP a dozen years of control and, even though they took over all branches in 2001 and had the country regress in many areas continued voting for them in subsequent elections? But now, all of a sudden, that same citizenry expects that there is a magical pill that the Dems are to employ and that, if the country is not back to pre-Repub disaster levels, that the Repubs get to try again after just one term of Dem rule?

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: HomerJS
I have a question...

Since the Iraqies didn't ask us to invade, do we have the right to demand they "step up to the plate"? We may be obligated to stay and fix Bush's mess.

Obligated under what terms? The Iraqi population overwhelmingly supports the total withdrawal of all foreign forces. The most powerful group, the Shia, will certainly gain control under these circumstances. It won't be pretty, but this 85% of the population that suffered so long under Saddam has enough hate and anger to fill ten hells. Unleash the wrath, only after the expulsion of this force will stability be achieved.

Westerners always make the mistake of interpreting the middle east through western values. These conflicts have simmered and flared for thousands of years, and are given focal emphasis with the relatively recent Islamic faith, which follows the previous tribal and racial fracturing.

The US cannot bring peace to that soil, and certainly not under the barrel of a gun.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Since the Democrats don't actually take over anything until January 3rd, anything that does happen is by the GOP with the prodding of the Democrats.
Thet can 'advise' but only the GOP can make it actually happen.
The GOP's 'Cut and Run' policy is nothing more than an attempt to shift responsibility to their successors and appear to be blameless.
That is a shameful end for the failure of the Lock-Step, Rubber-Stamp GOP Bush Agenda - only he and his 'Vulcans' are to blame.

Well said, but can any of the W's remaining supporters hold their concentration long enough to realize that?