"Democrats are committed to long-term fiscal discipline."

[wwswimming]

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090107/recession_stimulus.html

the national debt climbed from about $5 trillion to about $9 trillion (VERY conservatively **) on Bush's watch.

2009 deficit = $1.2 trillion - before the $775 billion (and climbing) Obama "stimulus" package.

1.2 + .775 ~ 1.975 ~ $2 Trillion, US national deficit in 2009.

** commitments made to solve fiscal "crisis" by Paulson etc. - $7.7 Trillion

"Pelosi, speaking before the House Democratic Steering and Policy Committee, offered her own assurance that the stimulus plan would be responsible and that Democrats are committed to long-term fiscal discipline."

at some point, the US will experience what Germany experienced this week - an un-attended government bond sale.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/16c7...a2a9-000077b07658.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fin...s-veto-Fed-rescue.html

"Asian, Mid East and European investors stood aside at last week's auction of 10-year US Treasury notes. "It was a disaster," said Ray Attrill from 4castweb. "We may be close to the point where the uglier consequences of benign neglect towards the currency are revealed."

The share of foreign buyers ("indirect bidders") plummeted to 5.8pc, from an average 25pc over the last eight weeks. On the Richter Scale of unfolding dramas, this matches the death of Bear Stearns."

fascinating to watch. never seen anything like it. Pelosi' re-assurances aren't any more re-assuring than Bush's re-assurances !

in real life, what is the meaning of long-term fiscal discipline ? i think it has something to do with future generations - today's children & teenagers - paying for the Clinton/Bush/Obama bail-outs. if they have the ability.

 

[StageLeft]

I have to say I'm mostly numb from it now. I don't even care how much they spend, and although I'm not yet a citizen, it still affects me directly since I live here. They will just keep spending and spending and spending and ultimately the dollar will have to lose value, although it may not lose it against other currencies terribly if their govs are also spending and spending and spending. It's all a game. It's tricksy and false.

 

[StageLeft]

Oh, and, BTW, what happened in Germany plays precisely into the hands of what a guy told me about two weeks ago when he explained why bonds were a bubble in the US. Notwithstanding their historically massive increase in the last year, if the US needs more money and has problems raising it, particularly IF the stock market starts to look more attractive, it will have to sell bonds with higher yields. Those already in command of low-yield ones will find their holdings worth less and they will lose value. This is one of the reasons he said to take the winnings; if a person has done well in treasury bonds, and put the money elsewhere.

The gov in Germany has no problem raising cash; it's raising cash at low yields that is the issue. Essentially the investors are saying they are more confident that inflation is a problem than deflation in Germany.

 

[LegendKiller]

Originally posted by: wwswimming
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090107/recession_stimulus.html

the national debt climbed from about $5 trillion to about $9 trillion (VERY conservatively **) on Bush's watch.

2009 deficit = $1.2 trillion - before the $775 billion (and climbing) Obama "stimulus" package.

1.2 + .775 ~ 1.975 ~ $2 Trillion, US national deficit in 2009.

** commitments made to solve fiscal "crisis" by Paulson etc. - $7.7 Trillion

"Pelosi, speaking before the House Democratic Steering and Policy Committee, offered her own assurance that the stimulus plan would be responsible and that Democrats are committed to long-term fiscal discipline."

at some point, the US will experience what Germany experienced this week - an un-attended government bond sale.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/16c7...a2a9-000077b07658.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fin...s-veto-Fed-rescue.html

"Asian, Mid East and European investors stood aside at last week's auction of 10-year US Treasury notes. "It was a disaster," said Ray Attrill from 4castweb. "We may be close to the point where the uglier consequences of benign neglect towards the currency are revealed."

The share of foreign buyers ("indirect bidders") plummeted to 5.8pc, from an average 25pc over the last eight weeks. On the Richter Scale of unfolding dramas, this matches the death of Bear Stearns."

fascinating to watch. never seen anything like it. Pelosi' re-assurances aren't any more re-assuring than Bush's re-assurances !

in real life, what is the meaning of long-term fiscal discipline ? i think it has something to do with future generations - today's children & teenagers - paying for the Clinton/Bush/Obama bail-outs. if they have the ability.

You do realize that the telegraph article is almost a year old, things have improved in certain areas.

 

[StageLeft]

US Debt losing its appeal in China

Just as Obama begins, huge deficit could hamper plans

 

[PokerGuy]

Fiscal discipline is a joke. The politicians (both parties by the way) have figured out that it's very easy to confuse the general public with talk of fiscal responsibility and smaller government while spending like crazy. Sad for our country.

 

[nobodyknows]

as are the Republicans ???

You meant to say as WERE the Republicans, didn't you??? :laugh:

 

[CycloWizard]

The American people are getting what they've said they wanted. As a whole, we were too stupid to realize that the political promises we were given would cost us our very souls.

 

[Lemon law]

A few comments.

1. The American economy has been failing since 1980, basically at the cusp between Carter and Reagan, and the one immutable and iron measure of that is our balance of trade. We have gone negative and continue to go negative at an ever accelerating rate. Various democratic and republican gimmicks can seemingly change temporary perceptions, but are doing nothing to address the problem. Bottom line, we are living on foreign financed debt, borrowed time, and former wealth built up when we had a positive trade balance.

2. Poorly regulated financial buccaneering has created the illusion and myth that wealth can be created out of thin air by investment guru's, when in fact its always a zero sum game. And now the US and other countries have allowed investment guru's to create a 60 trillion dollar gambling casino backed partly by other peoples money in the banking system and with the rest backed by nothing at all. And now that the whole mess has collapsed, it threatens the entire world economy.

3. If nothing is done, its an almost guaranteed world wide depression with the employment base of the USA likely to go first.

4. And with desperate times calling for desperate means, Obama proposes totally rebuilding the American economy on a sounder basis, making long terms investments in new technology that have the potential
to pay future dividends, replace lost jobs, and keep everything running, financed, by you guessed it, a huge amount of new debt.

5. Yes I am skeptical too, but we are now damned if we do and damned if we don't. And if we do not, we will soon have massive unemployment and it will make the great depression look mild by comparison.
During the great depression, we had the machine tools, most of the natural resources now depleted, and knew how to compete in basic industries. We no longer have even that.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
A few comments.

1. The American economy has been failing since 1980, basically at the cusp between Carter and Reagan, and the one immutable and iron measure of that is our balance of trade. We have gone negative and continue to go negative at an ever accelerating rate. Various democratic and republican gimmicks can seemingly change temporary perceptions, but are doing nothing to address the problem. Bottom line, we are living on foreign financed debt, borrowed time, and former wealth built up when we had a positive trade balance.

the balance of trade has been negative since 1976, and 3 of the 5 years before that were negative as well. the negative balance of trade was "lower" (higher?) in 1980, 1981, and 1982 than it was in 1977, 1978, and 1979. so your chosen measure doesn't really agree with your chosen date. your chosen measure and analysis also smacks of single-entry accounting.

Originally posted by: Lemon law
During the great depression, we had the machine tools, most of the natural resources now depleted, and knew how to compete in basic industries. We no longer have even that.

what are you even talking about?




the first step to reducing the trade deficit is to stop importing energy. 2006 and 2007 we imported about $185 billion in crude. through october of 2008 we imported nearly $310 billion in crude. further, we imported about 150 million barrels of finished gasoline in 2007 (which was down from about 220 million in 2005).

 

[Mxylplyx]

Comforting to know that our politicians are committed to becoming committed in the future to fiscal discipline. Sounds like many fat people I know who are always committed to losing weight sometime tomorrow while they stuff their face today.

 

[Jiggz]

Originally posted by: LegendKiller

Originally posted by: wwswimming
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/090107/recession_stimulus.html

the national debt climbed from about $5 trillion to about $9 trillion (VERY conservatively **) on Bush's watch.

2009 deficit = $1.2 trillion - before the $775 billion (and climbing) Obama "stimulus" package.

1.2 + .775 ~ 1.975 ~ $2 Trillion, US national deficit in 2009.

** commitments made to solve fiscal "crisis" by Paulson etc. - $7.7 Trillion

"Pelosi, speaking before the House Democratic Steering and Policy Committee, offered her own assurance that the stimulus plan would be responsible and that Democrats are committed to long-term fiscal discipline."

at some point, the US will experience what Germany experienced this week - an un-attended government bond sale.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/16c7...a2a9-000077b07658.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/fin...s-veto-Fed-rescue.html

"Asian, Mid East and European investors stood aside at last week's auction of 10-year US Treasury notes. "It was a disaster," said Ray Attrill from 4castweb. "We may be close to the point where the uglier consequences of benign neglect towards the currency are revealed."

The share of foreign buyers ("indirect bidders") plummeted to 5.8pc, from an average 25pc over the last eight weeks. On the Richter Scale of unfolding dramas, this matches the death of Bear Stearns."

fascinating to watch. never seen anything like it. Pelosi' re-assurances aren't any more re-assuring than Bush's re-assurances !

in real life, what is the meaning of long-term fiscal discipline ? i think it has something to do with future generations - today's children & teenagers - paying for the Clinton/Bush/Obama bail-outs. if they have the ability.

You do realize that the telegraph article is almost a year old, things have improved in certain areas.

I guess if you consider bailing out companies as some form of improvement, then I guess some things have improved! So now if we can just bail out the Pr0n industry then we can have a real "stimulus package"! We definitely need Monica L. to help solve this stimulus problem.

 

[Wheezer]

Politicians + Fiscal Discipline= Bullshit.

no matter who says it.

 

[wwswimming]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Lemon law
During the great depression, we had the machine tools, most of the natural resources now depleted, and knew how to compete in basic industries. We no longer have even that.

what are you even talking about?


the first step to reducing the trade deficit is to stop importing energy. 2006 and 2007 we imported about $185 billion in crude. through october of 2008 we imported nearly $310 billion in crude. further, we imported about 150 million barrels of finished gasoline in 2007 (which was down from about 220 million in 2005).

true, during the Great Depression the US actually made stuff.

at one job in particular i was always making presentations to customers in technical Design Reviews, and one of the best ways to quickly answer a question was to cite a previous solid "usage history".

for example, with Rigid-Flex circuitry, there is a concern because the flex uses Kapton, and there is some history of Kapton wire degrading and over time coming to approximate a firecracker fuse. so to make a customer comfortable with our use of rigid-flex on their design, i had to ask a lady Navy procurement manager for permission, citing "we used it here and here and here and here, no problems".

to some extent, i think "usage history" applies in a social context.

there were a lot of times in our past when America made stuff and did not rely on foreign fuel sources. so, to some extent, i think the transitions forced on us by what's going on will be like going back in time.

but, we have an "usage history" there. we have successfully lived in metropolitan areas in the past, and lived within our energy budget.

part of what makes the situation scary is being $9 going on $11 trillion in debt (very conservatively). i think the government will use a variety of measures to deal with it -
* cutting back programs/ spending.
* asset confiscation.
* printing money. all of these fancy terms, monetizing the debt, seem like they involve some sleight of hand.

but, aside from all that debt, adapting to our situation is not that difficult because we have a societal "usage history"

for example, manufacturing our own streetcars, as part of rebuilding mass transit, using local sources of energy. this will mean using less energy, but we use so much of it, it's not that hard in many areas to cut our consumption.

so it'll be like the '50's with iPods instead of 8-tracks.

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The American people are getting what they've said they wanted. As a whole, we were too stupid to realize that the political promises we were given would cost us our very souls.

Or we're just too short-sighted to realize the long-term results of the policies we've pursued.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: wwswimming


true, during the Great Depression the US actually made stuff.

US manufacturing was at an all time high before the recent slow down.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: PokerGuy
Fiscal discipline is a joke. The politicians (both parties by the way) have figured out that it's very easy to confuse the general public with talk of fiscal responsibility and smaller government while spending like crazy. Sad for our country.

Communism is the goal, and the centralization of wealth into a single focal point is the means to that end. When the spending derives the need to spend more, it is a self fulfilling feeding frenzy. The more they spend, the less our wages are worth, the more we become dependent on their use of money.

Ask the men in Washington this, should they have less money have power? Their answer will make it crystal clear what they intend to do with your wallet and your liberties, and why I use the word communism to describe their direction for this nation.

 

[AndrewR]

All politicians are concerned about "long-term fiscal discipline" as long as the "long-term" goes beyond the current elected term. Ever notice how presidents pass budgets which put the biggest money cuts 5 years out, after they leave office?