Democratic Concessions Are Expected on Wiretapping

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
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In yet another sign that the Democrats in congress are totally worthless here they are about to make concession to extend key powers given to the NSA on wiretapping.

All this bitching about the NSA and wiretapping and yet the Dems don't even try to stop the bill.

First they gave up on ending the war, now they give up on the NSA program. I expect that they will give up on schip next.
And anyone of you still dreaming about a Bush impeachment might as well give it up.
This Democrat congress is turning out to be the weakest majority in memory.
NY Times
Two months after vowing to roll back broad new wiretapping powers won by the Bush administration, Congressional Democrats appear ready to make concessions that could extend some of the key powers granted to the National Security Agency.

Bush administration officials say they are confident they will win approval of the broadened wiretapping authority that they secured temporarily in August as Congress rushed toward recess, and some Democratic officials admit that they may not come up with the votes to rein in the administration.

As the debate over the N.S.A.?s wiretapping powers begins anew this week, the emerging legislation reflects the political reality confronting the Democrats. While they are willing to oppose the White House on the conduct of the war in Iraq, they remain nervous that they will be labeled as soft on terrorism if they insist on strict curbs on intelligence gathering.

A Democratic bill to be proposed Tuesday in the House would maintain for several years the type of broad, blanket authority for N.S.A. wiretapping that the administration secured in August for just six months. But in an acknowledgment of civil liberties concerns, the measure would also require a more active role by the special foreign intelligence court that oversees the N.S.A.?s interception of foreign-based communications.

A competing proposal in the Senate, still being drafted, may be even closer in line with the administration?s demands, with the possibility of including retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies that took part in the N.S.A.?s once-secret program to wiretap without court warrants.

No one is willing to predict with certainty how the issue will play out. But some Congressional officials and others monitoring the debate over the legislation said the final result may not be much different than it was two months ago, despite Democrats? insistence that they would not let stand the August extension of the N.S.A.?s powers.

?Many members continue to fear that if they don?t support whatever the president asks for, they?ll be perceived as soft on terrorism,? said William Banks, a professor specializing in terrorism and national security law at Syracuse University who has written extensively on federal wiretapping law.

The August bill, known as the Protect America Act, was approved by Congress in the final hours before its summer recess after heated warnings from the Bush administration that legal loopholes in wiretapping coverage had left the country vulnerable to another terrorist attack. The legislation significantly reduced the role of the foreign intelligence court and broadened the N.S.A.?s ability to listen in on foreign-based communications without a court warrant.

?We want the statute made permanent,? Dean Boyd, a spokesman for the Justice Department, said today. ?We view this as a healthy debate. We also view it as an opportunity to inform Congress and the public that we can use these authorities responsibly. We?re going to go forward and look at any proposals that come forth, but we?ll look at them very carefully to make sure they don?t have any consequences that hamper our abilities to protect the country.?

House Democrats overwhelmingly opposed the interim legislation in August and believed at the time they had been forced into a corner by the Bush administration.

As Congress takes up the new legislation, a senior Democratic aide said House leaders are working hard to make sure the administration does not succeed in pushing through a bill that would make permanent all the powers it secured in August for the N.S.A. ?That?s what we?re trying to avoid,? the aide said. ?We have that concern too.?

The bill to be proposed Tuesday by the Democratic leaders of the House Intelligence and Judiciary Committees would impose more controls over the N.S.A.?s powers, including quarterly audits by the Justice Department?s inspector general. It would also give the foreign intelligence court a role in approving, in advance, ?basket? or ?umbrella? warrants for bundles of overseas communications, according to a Congressional official.

?We are giving the N.S.A. what it legitimately needs for national security but with far more limitations and protections than are in the Protect America Act,? said Brendan Daly, a spokesman for Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Democrat of California.

Perhaps most important in the eyes of Democratic supporters, the House bill would not give retroactive immunity to the telecommunications companies that took part in the N.S.A.?s domestic eavesdropping program ? a proposal that had been a top priority of the Bush administration. The August legislation granted the companies immunity for future acts, but not past deeds.

A number of private groups are trying to prove in federal court that the telecommunications companies violated the law by taking part in the program. A former senior Justice Department lawyer, Jack Goldsmith, seemed to bolster their case last week when he told Congress that the program was a ?legal mess? and strongly suggested it was illegal.

In the Senate, the Democratic chairman of the Intelligence Committee, John D. Rockefeller IV of West Virginia, is working with his Republican counterpart, Christopher S. Bond of Missouri, who was one of the main proponents of the August plan, to come up with a compromise wiretapping proposal. Wendy Morigi, a spokeswoman for Mr. Rockefeller, said that retroactive immunity for the telecommunications companies is ?under discussion,? but that no final proposal had been developed.

The immunity issue may prove to be the key sticking point between whatever proposals are ultimately passed by the House and the Senate. Representative Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat who was among the harshest critics of the legislation passed in August, said he would vigorously oppose any effort to grant retroactive legal protection to telecommunications companies. ?There is heavy pressure on the immunity and we should not cave an inch on that,? he said in an interview.

Mr. Nadler said he was worried that the Senate would give too much ground to the administration in its proposal, but he said he was satisfied with the legislation to be proposed Tuesday in the House.

?It is not perfect, but it is a good bill,? he said. ?It makes huge improvements in the current law. In some respects it is better than the old FISA law,? referring to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

Civil liberties advocates and others who met with House officials today about the proposed bill agreed that it was an improvement over the August plan, but they were not quite as charitable in their overall assessment.

?This still authorizes the interception of Americans? international communications without a warrant in far too many instances and without adequate civil liberties protections,? said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies, who was among the group that met with House officials.

Caroline Frederickson, director of the Washington legislative office of the American Civil Liberties Union, said she was troubled by the Democrats? acceptance of broad, blanket warrants for the N.S.A., rather than the individualized warrants traditionally required by the intelligence court.

?The Democratic leadership, philosophically, is with us, but we need to help them realize the political case, which is that Democrats will not be in danger if they don?t reauthorize this Protect America Act,? Ms. Frederickson said. ?They?re nervous. There?s a ?keep the majority? mentality, which is understandable. But we think they?re putting themselves in more danger by not standing on principle.?
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
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This course of action is far superior to secret, illegal wiretapping that went on without the consent of Congress.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
This course of action is far superior to secret, illegal wiretapping that went on without the consent of Congress.

Indeed. And spin from ProJo aside, this is NOT the same thing that people are rightly concerned about Bush doing. This is more codifying something that was not entirely clear under the existing law, namely, the status of entirely foreign communications that happen to pass through the US. It says nothing about what Bush was doing before, warrantless wiretaps of partially domestic communications. Something that is, and remains, entirely illegal.

But ProJo knew that, because he's stupid, but he's not STUPID...you know? It's just another lame political shot at the Democrats. All the more so because Republicans like ProJo are in unanimous agreement (or virtually so) that the goverment should have every possible power to spy on us in the name of national security. I don't agree with this wiretapping law, but it's a hell of a lot better protection of our civil liberties than the NOTHING we were getting from the Republicans. Democrats may not be my ideal leaders, but on the continuum of not sucking, they are far and away beating the shit out of the Republicans.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
136
^ Dude, Prof isn't even worth that many words, despite the fact they're all true.
 

WHAMPOM

Diamond Member
Feb 28, 2006
7,628
183
106
" I now award PUFFJOHN the Humongus Tin Foil Hat award for straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel."
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
0
0
So, in your opinion, if they did do something to counter Bush, you would consider it right?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
136
Hey guys, the Democrats suck because they aren't keeping Bush from breaking the law as much as we would like.

Yes I know that I defended Bush's lawbreaking in many previous threads, but the fact that the Democrats aren't stopping him now somehow points to their weakness and crappiness. So, in conclusion.... when you stand against Bush's insane lawbreaking you are betraying America. When you do not succeed in stopping Bush's insane lawbreaking you are worthless and ineffectual.

Note: How I support Bush's policies will depend on which way the Democratic majority is voting. I take the other side.

PS: I'm totally retarded.
 

umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
TBH, all this shills posts are indeed great....





















for me to poop on.

Terrible attempt at spinning PJ. You lose again, you get owned so much one would think you would have GTFO a long time ago.
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
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You know a chord has been struck when all the usual BDS puffers have chimed in already with nothing but ad homs.

With elections coming up the Dems are too afraid to take an anti-anything stance in regard to the WoT so they are pandering once again, their usual MO.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,784
6,343
126
The lame tactics to stop people from voting Dem won't work. Give it a rest already. If you can't provide reasons for why other people should Vote Republican, maybe you should reconsider why you'd want to Vote Republican yourself?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,964
55,355
136
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
You know a chord has been struck when all the usual BDS puffers have chimed in already with nothing but ad homs.

With elections coming up the Dems are too afraid to take an anti-anything stance in regard to the WoT so they are pandering once again, their usual MO.

You're back again? Things were so quiet and not stupid with you missing.

I was sort of hoping you got banned for trolling or something.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
126
The Democrats are so terrible the Republicans should be executed for screwing up so badly as to return them to power. What are we looking at, a Democratic House and Presidency and a 60 seat Democratic Senate. Hell, here we come. I never did much like the Republican heaven.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
126
Personally I think the Democrats are worthless cowardly scum who fear standing up for the Constitution of the United States because the Republicans will call them names like traitors. They make me puke. They are afraid of being called traitors and so they get called worms and deserve it fully. Why vote for a Democrat when they stand for nothing. Of course you can vote for a Republican because they stand for sh!t.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Regardless of who the OP is this bothers me

Civil liberties advocates and others who met with House officials today about the proposed bill agreed that it was an improvement over the August plan, but they were not quite as charitable in their overall assessment.

?This still authorizes the interception of Americans? international communications without a warrant in far too many instances and without adequate civil liberties protections,? said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies, who was among the group that met with House officials.

Caroline Frederickson, director of the Washington legislative office of the American Civil Liberties Union, said she was troubled by the Democrats? acceptance of broad, blanket warrants for the N.S.A., rather than the individualized warrants traditionally required by the intelligence court.

?The Democratic leadership, philosophically, is with us, but we need to help them realize the political case, which is that Democrats will not be in danger if they don?t reauthorize this Protect America Act,? Ms. Frederickson said. ?They?re nervous. There?s a ?keep the majority? mentality, which is understandable. But we think they?re putting themselves in more danger by not standing on principle.?




Better than it was? Perhaps. Of course some would qualify US torture as being better than what Saddam did. Not a great moral argument.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
This course of action is far superior to secret, illegal wiretapping that went on without the consent of Congress.

Indeed. And spin from ProJo aside, this is NOT the same thing that people are rightly concerned about Bush doing. This is more codifying something that was not entirely clear under the existing law, namely, the status of entirely foreign communications that happen to pass through the US. It says nothing about what Bush was doing before, warrantless wiretaps of partially domestic communications. Something that is, and remains, entirely illegal.

But ProJo knew that, because he's stupid, but he's not STUPID...you know? It's just another lame political shot at the Democrats. All the more so because Republicans like ProJo are in unanimous agreement (or virtually so) that the goverment should have every possible power to spy on us in the name of national security. I don't agree with this wiretapping law, but it's a hell of a lot better protection of our civil liberties than the NOTHING we were getting from the Republicans. Democrats may not be my ideal leaders, but on the continuum of not sucking, they are far and away beating the shit out of the Republicans.

Bullshit. +10 at taking pot shots. I sincerely doubt PJ loves the idea of warrantless wiretaps. Man you lefties are an angry bunch.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Narmer
So, in your opinion, if they did do something to counter Bush, you would consider it right?

IMHO thr Patriot Act is in the top 3 pieces of shit legislation ever passed. Myself being a conservative, if a left wing looney like Gore or Dean actually had a plan to dismantle it, I meana RELAISTC plan not unlike most of the Dems plans for ruling the world, I would campaign for them 24x7. But, alas, as PJ has proven, Dems are (again) renigging on campaign promises and snuggling into another corrupt ride in congress.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
You lefties missed the point of this thread.

1. The Democrat leadership is worthless and can not accomplish anything major that they want too.

2. Despite all the bitching, moaning and groaning over the Wiretap program the Democrats aren?t even going to try and stop the program. Which seems to illustrate that all that bitching and moaning was only for political consumption and that when it came time to vote they know as well as the Republicans that some type of program like this needs to be in place.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
You lefties missed the point of this thread.

1. The Democrat leadership is worthless and can not accomplish anything major that they want too.

2. Despite all the bitching, moaning and groaning over the Wiretap program the Democrats aren?t even going to try and stop the program. Which seems to illustrate that all that bitching and moaning was only for political consumption and that when it came time to vote they know as well as the Republicans that some type of program like this needs to be in place.

I'd say the moral of the story is that the politicians we have from either party don't respect the Constitution and need to go.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
ProfJohn, I don't really grok the tone in your OP. don't you support the patriot act?

this would really get a big :thumbsdown: from me if it goes through, though, and I'd seriously question any candidate voting for this.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
I would also like to know what you think of the PA PJ. Im sure you've stated it before but Im too lazy to look lol. you and I agree on most things, but Im still curious what you think.

Ive stated my opinion :)
 
Sep 12, 2004
16,852
59
86
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
You lefties missed the point of this thread.

1. The Democrat leadership is worthless and can not accomplish anything major that they want too.

2. Despite all the bitching, moaning and groaning over the Wiretap program the Democrats aren?t even going to try and stop the program. Which seems to illustrate that all that bitching and moaning was only for political consumption and that when it came time to vote they know as well as the Republicans that some type of program like this needs to be in place.

I'd say the moral of the story is that the politicians we have from either party don't respect the Constitution and need to go.
I'd say they do respect the Constitution because I don't think many of the original authors wrote the Constitution with all the technicalities of global electronic eavesdropping issues in mind. Additionally, even the authors of the Constitution, or at least one or two of them, never imagined that its contents wouldn't occasionally have to be reinterpreted for the time. Obviously, I'm a believer in a living Constitution.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Rainsford
Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
This course of action is far superior to secret, illegal wiretapping that went on without the consent of Congress.

Indeed. And spin from ProJo aside, this is NOT the same thing that people are rightly concerned about Bush doing. This is more codifying something that was not entirely clear under the existing law, namely, the status of entirely foreign communications that happen to pass through the US. It says nothing about what Bush was doing before, warrantless wiretaps of partially domestic communications. Something that is, and remains, entirely illegal.

But ProJo knew that, because he's stupid, but he's not STUPID...you know? It's just another lame political shot at the Democrats. All the more so because Republicans like ProJo are in unanimous agreement (or virtually so) that the goverment should have every possible power to spy on us in the name of national security. I don't agree with this wiretapping law, but it's a hell of a lot better protection of our civil liberties than the NOTHING we were getting from the Republicans. Democrats may not be my ideal leaders, but on the continuum of not sucking, they are far and away beating the shit out of the Republicans.

Bullshit. +10 at taking pot shots. I sincerely doubt PJ loves the idea of warrantless wiretaps. Man you lefties are an angry bunch.

I'm not angry at all, I just haven't spent the last 2 years living in a cave. Seriously, the number of conservatives that have come out strongly in favor of the warrantless wiretapping program since it was revealed is pretty astonishing. With the possible exception of a few real libertarians, I can't think of any conservative who's opposed the program. Certainly not ProfJohn...do we really need to dig up the threads dealing with this issue?

Perhaps I exaggerated a little bit, but there is no doubt in my mind that ProfJohn, and most Republicans, support an increase in government powers beyond what is being discussed here. And I didn't have to use my magical mind reading powers to figure that out, I just listened to what they said.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
You lefties missed the point of this thread.

1. The Democrat leadership is worthless and can not accomplish anything major that they want too.

2. Despite all the bitching, moaning and groaning over the Wiretap program the Democrats aren?t even going to try and stop the program. Which seems to illustrate that all that bitching and moaning was only for political consumption and that when it came time to vote they know as well as the Republicans that some type of program like this needs to be in place.

This bill is not about the warrantless wiretapping program as revealed in the NYT. Do I need to use smaller words here or what?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
You lefties missed the point of this thread.

1. The Democrat leadership is worthless and can not accomplish anything major that they want too.

2. Despite all the bitching, moaning and groaning over the Wiretap program the Democrats aren?t even going to try and stop the program. Which seems to illustrate that all that bitching and moaning was only for political consumption and that when it came time to vote they know as well as the Republicans that some type of program like this needs to be in place.

I'd say the moral of the story is that the politicians we have from either party don't respect the Constitution and need to go.
I'd say they do respect the Constitution because I don't think many of the original authors wrote the Constitution with all the technicalities of global electronic eavesdropping issues in mind. Additionally, even the authors of the Constitution, or at least one or two of them, never imagined that its contents wouldn't occasionally have to be reinterpreted for the time. Obviously, I'm a believer in a living Constitution.

That's the same argument that has been used since the Constitution was written. The founders (who lived in far more dangerous times than we) wished citizens to have certain protections from the government. The danger of the "living" constitution argument is that virtually everyone can make an argument for almost anything. It's the governments responsibility to follow the Constitution just like we citizens have to follow the law.

How about a living speed limit interpretation? I don't think that people who made the laws took into account how wonderfully modern cars can steer and brake, and therefore I am free to disregard it.

If someone doesn't like the Constitution, change it.