thebestMAX
Diamond Member
- Sep 14, 2000
- 7,521
- 140
- 106
<< First of all, who are you to tell me that I'm not a "real man?" >>
Since you have never served or been in such an environment, it is difficult for you to comprehend the significance of the discussion, though that hasn't stopped you from multiple postings.
In the context of the search for a cure for cancer, the results of the Presidential election are rather insignificant. That does not make the Presidential election insignificant in its own right, however. Obviously, I am not comparing this issue in terms of importance to either of those issues (anticipating a knee-jerk, non-thought response), but I'm illustrating a point.
<< Ascribing it partisan politics is something else. >>
If it weren't for the absolutely criminal manner in which the Dems have run the US military for the last eight years, threatening our national security and the safety of our troops, the upper echelons wouldn't be trying to find ways to improve morale, such as this abortion. That's where the partisan politics comes in.
Hmm.. I thought the red beret was only for airborne qualified soldiers in an airborne unit? My dad was airborne, air assault (repelling out of helicopters), and had his EFMB and never wore a beret. I don't think he would have liked that pretty stuff to make him stand out. The blood wings were enough. He was this " " close to going to Ranger school but my mom wouldn't let him go be away for six months with us kids at home.
Then again, he was in the medical service corps (he was a doctor), so maybe that was part of the difference.
A friend of mine is in the security police for the Air Force and just had his beret taken away since he can no longer work out in the field due to his bad back. He was pretty pissed about that. I guess he does like the stuff that makes him stand out from the rest.
Then again, he was in the medical service corps (he was a doctor), so maybe that was part of the difference.
A friend of mine is in the security police for the Air Force and just had his beret taken away since he can no longer work out in the field due to his bad back. He was pretty pissed about that. I guess he does like the stuff that makes him stand out from the rest.
I cant believe what im reading here. to blame this on the democrats is just ridiculous. do you really think the president makes decisions on what hats the military is going to wear? whatever.
Red, I would agree that most of the drivel that comes from your keyboard is just that -- drivel. How's that?
If anyone buries their head in the sand enough to deny that their are serious morale problems in the US military, they should probably keep it there because they would also likely doubt that the sun is shining while standing in it. Credible, non-partisan sources have stated that -- the only ones who deny it are either stupid, politically connected, or have their jobs on the line if it's true.
A decision such as the one referenced here, while not directly stemming from the Democrats, is indicative of the amazing lack of credibility in the military leadership right now, leadership which comes from the top. Instead of focusing on the problems of readiness, equipment lifespan, and troop training, they are worried about hats. If that seems acceptable to anyone, then perhaps they need to reassess their priorities.
If anyone buries their head in the sand enough to deny that their are serious morale problems in the US military, they should probably keep it there because they would also likely doubt that the sun is shining while standing in it. Credible, non-partisan sources have stated that -- the only ones who deny it are either stupid, politically connected, or have their jobs on the line if it's true.
A decision such as the one referenced here, while not directly stemming from the Democrats, is indicative of the amazing lack of credibility in the military leadership right now, leadership which comes from the top. Instead of focusing on the problems of readiness, equipment lifespan, and troop training, they are worried about hats. If that seems acceptable to anyone, then perhaps they need to reassess their priorities.
I served 8 years, from 89-97, and am a Gulf War infantry combat vet. I wore a black beret for a while...
It is something you have to do to understand.
Noone expects those not in the military (US) to understand, just let us have out little snit fit over our "silly hats" and go away.
As for whether people are "real men" if they serve, I feel that everyone should contribute a few years to the country somehow, through military service, or for those not so inclined (or not healthy enough) through community service.
When did patriotism become so tarnished that people that never served feel that they can mock soldiers discussing soldier issues without being taken to task for it?
As for that room full of Rangers, it's a moot point because most of the ones mocking will never be there anyway.
My humble opinion.
DR
:disgust::frown::disgust:
It is something you have to do to understand.
Noone expects those not in the military (US) to understand, just let us have out little snit fit over our "silly hats" and go away.
As for whether people are "real men" if they serve, I feel that everyone should contribute a few years to the country somehow, through military service, or for those not so inclined (or not healthy enough) through community service.
When did patriotism become so tarnished that people that never served feel that they can mock soldiers discussing soldier issues without being taken to task for it?
As for that room full of Rangers, it's a moot point because most of the ones mocking will never be there anyway.
My humble opinion.
DR
:disgust::frown::disgust:
Andrew,
<< Instead of focusing on the problems of readiness, equipment lifespan, and troop training, they are worried about hats. >>
Hats are all they can afford.
<< Instead of focusing on the problems of readiness, equipment lifespan, and troop training, they are worried about hats. >>
Hats are all they can afford.
It's just a hat...
And those dangly things on thier shirt pockets are "just medals" Why don't we hand a few of those out to everyone so they can feel better about themselves.
And those dangly things on thier shirt pockets are "just medals" Why don't we hand a few of those out to everyone so they can feel better about themselves.
DarkRipper: I have run into this problem before on a national issue -- the removal of the all-male admissions policy at VMI which was ultimately decided by the Supreme Court. You simply cannot explain a system such as that to anyone who has not experienced it. That system at VMI is gone, and something truly marvelous was lost. What is left is but a shell of what was, through no fault of those who implemented the coed school or those who attend and run it.
How do you explain the color red to a blind person?
How do you explain the color red to a blind person?
I live in Virginia, so I know about the VMI thing. It's pathetic... if the ladies want into the military, then they should go to womens military schools or West Point.
There's something to be said for the discipline of non-integrated (sex-wise) military schools. The women in VA had a perfectly good cadet corps just up the road at an all-women college.
I did ROTC at JMU, BTW.
I agree, it's like herding cats arguing this with civilians.....
DR
There's something to be said for the discipline of non-integrated (sex-wise) military schools. The women in VA had a perfectly good cadet corps just up the road at an all-women college.
I did ROTC at JMU, BTW.
I agree, it's like herding cats arguing this with civilians.....
DR
Eug
Lifer
- Mar 11, 2000
- 24,176
- 1,816
- 126
<--- Herding cats? Who are the cats in this thread?
Again, the substance of one's character and his/her accomplishments are ultimately more important that what he/she wears. That should be true for both the person, and for people judging that person. Unfortunately, that is not the case. (My uncle treasured his medals, but he didn't wear all his medals every day. If fact, if he did, I'd think he was strange.)
<< How do you explain the color red to a blind person? >>
Most of us choose not to judge on the basis of colour. (Sorry... couldn't resist. j/k)
P.S. I still find it odd that the Democrats are being blamed for this by some. (I'm not a Democrat - I don't live in the US anyway.)
Again, the substance of one's character and his/her accomplishments are ultimately more important that what he/she wears. That should be true for both the person, and for people judging that person. Unfortunately, that is not the case. (My uncle treasured his medals, but he didn't wear all his medals every day. If fact, if he did, I'd think he was strange.)
<< How do you explain the color red to a blind person? >>
Most of us choose not to judge on the basis of colour. (Sorry... couldn't resist. j/k
)P.S. I still find it odd that the Democrats are being blamed for this by some. (I'm not a Democrat - I don't live in the US anyway.)
unxpurg8d
Golden Member
- Apr 7, 2000
- 1,373
- 0
- 71
It's just a hat, it's just a flag - they're both just symbols of pride, unity, and belonging.
If someone can't understand, then fine, but to belittle the people who DO feel strongly about it without having been one of them is presumptuous. It has nothing to do with needing it for validation and recognition, and everything to do with the sense of personal accomplishment and comaraderie that goes along with the incredibly tough and demanding jobs these people have chosen to do for little pay and a lot of ridicule from those standing outside looking in with no comprehension of what it feels like to be a soldier.
Sorry, AndrewR, but you seem to have forgotten that the real negative morale in the Army started back in the Bush years during the beginning of the drawdown, when incredibly high promotion points and a cap on time in grade allowed forced out a lot of soldiers that were good at their jobs, but just not good at sucking up to get the schools needed.
thebestMAX
Diamond Member
- Sep 14, 2000
- 7,521
- 140
- 106
Ballot:
Please punch through your monitor screen to make sure your vote is counted:
For RED:
<<It would be funny if you guys weren't serious>>
Max is serious................................0
Max is not serious............................0
Max is not not serious.........................0
I dont care, I get the humor..................0
Trying to get thorugh to some people on this board is like trying to herd cats:
Yes...............................................0
No ...............................................0
Too difficult of a question for me................0
I dont understand.................................0
I dont understand anything.......................0
Please punch through your monitor screen to make sure your vote is counted:
For RED:
<<It would be funny if you guys weren't serious>>
Max is serious................................0
Max is not serious............................0
Max is not not serious.........................0
I dont care, I get the humor..................0
Trying to get thorugh to some people on this board is like trying to herd cats:
Yes...............................................0
No ...............................................0
Too difficult of a question for me................0
I dont understand.................................0
I dont understand anything.......................0
Don't worry, Red Dawn, the armed services will continue to do their jobs, regardless of what hat they wear. That doesn't mean that they have to like it, or go down without a fight.
As for progress, this hat issue is not a form of progress. This is not the same as a new rifle or tank or fighter airplane, this is a matter of hurting elite troop morale, which in the end is just as important as the equipment the troops are issued.
As to whether the armed forces serve you, don't ever be under the idea that they do. The armed forces are there to defend you, not serve you. Big difference.
Civilians like the president and the congress have control, not civilians such as you and now me.
DR
As for progress, this hat issue is not a form of progress. This is not the same as a new rifle or tank or fighter airplane, this is a matter of hurting elite troop morale, which in the end is just as important as the equipment the troops are issued.
As to whether the armed forces serve you, don't ever be under the idea that they do. The armed forces are there to defend you, not serve you. Big difference.
Civilians like the president and the congress have control, not civilians such as you and now me.
DR
Did Clinton implement or make this decision, or did a career military man make it?
Oh, I see...more republican lies.
Sorry I wasted my time reading the thread.
Oh, I see...more republican lies.
Sorry I wasted my time reading the thread.
Do you get emotional like a child every time someone doesn't agree with you?
"Red Face?"
I guess because you are "Elite" your opinion is more important, or is it just a character flaw that causes you to not be able to post constructively? Or do you think that internet anonymity makes you a big man, and more able to insult people?
Just curious.
(Please do spell it out in big block letters for me, my beady eyes don't comprehend.) LOL Loser.
DR
"Red Face?"
I guess because you are "Elite" your opinion is more important, or is it just a character flaw that causes you to not be able to post constructively? Or do you think that internet anonymity makes you a big man, and more able to insult people?
Just curious.
(Please do spell it out in big block letters for me, my beady eyes don't comprehend.) LOL
Loser.DR
<< Unfortunately even traditions have to give way to progress, whether the progress is new weapons technology or advances in social standards. >>
When there is a valid reason for removing a tradition (segregation for instance), then I have no problem with seeing the tradition changed. However, here's a quote for you, "Change is good". Now, on the surface, people might think that is a valid statement and agree with it. I do not. Change for the sake of change is wrong. Change with a purpose is good.
Changing the dress standards for uniforms with this hat is ridiculous because there is no reason for it. Conversely, there is a viable policy behind it -- the recognition of the completion of certain training. The beret is but a portion of what the military uses to recognize achievement and distinction -- if there is no need for it, why do we have medals and hold Medal of Honor recipients with such high regard (or everyone should if they don't)?
Similarly, there was a valid reason behind the exclusion of women at VMI -- the program, along with The Citadel, was unique in its educational approach and allowed young men from around the country to experience something that was not available anywhere else. Women could not participate in that program because their presence destroyed it. Now, not only are women are excluded in the program, men are too. That was not a change for social mores, that was a blind witch hunt against non-existent discrimination.
<< Sorry, AndrewR, but you seem to have forgotten that the real negative morale in the Army started back in the Bush years during the beginning of the drawdown, when incredibly high promotion points and a cap on time in grade allowed forced out a lot of soldiers that were good at their jobs, but just not good at sucking up to get the schools needed. >>
The drawdown was the result of the end of the Cold War, which I think you might agree was a good event. While the conduct of the drawdown may not have been perfect, it was a necessary action. I would think people in the military have recovered from the drawdown of eight years ago -- if not, they may want to consult psychological help.
BTW, I was a victim of that drawdown in that I was denied a Navy commission because there were absolutely ZERO available for my class ('94) despite the fact that I had been offered a guaranteed three year scholarship from them before starting college and was offered a two year scholarship from the Army after my first year (declined both, I was already getting a free ride). We had 6 guys commissioned into the Navy in my class, versus 30 for each of the other services. I was commissioned into the Air Force and subsequently went to Vanderbilt Law School, if you wonder about my performance in college affecting my appeal to the Navy (my military test scores were in the mid-upper 90s, except for the pilot sections which were in the high 80s).
<< Did Clinton implement or make this decision, or did a career military man make it? >>
You don't read, do you? The conditions which brought about the implementation of this misguided policy are the direct result of the mismanagement of the military by the current administration. The current administration is Democratic. That career military man, the Chief of Staff of the Army, is a political animal and does not command any troops.
Andrew, if the "career military man" made this decision, then you should have a beef with him.
Also: nowhere on that page do I get any indication or proof of anything you have said. Does someone here have the REAL story behind what this guy is talking about on the web page?
Also: nowhere on that page do I get any indication or proof of anything you have said. Does someone here have the REAL story behind what this guy is talking about on the web page?
It was much more than just a hat. Some of you are pathetic... and represent (in a small degree) the problem with America today.
You guys are a joke who can't appreciate anything ... that was not just "given" to you.
The beret's were earned and represented an elite group of guys that went trough hell to EARN the right to wear it. By letting just any soldier wear the beret.... is a slap in the face to those living who earned the right to wear it, and those who died wearing it. Even those in the military that are now going to be wearing the beret without having earned it.... are doing so with some reluctance. Rightfully so.
You ironically are right about something....
NOW it is "just a hat".
You guys are a joke who can't appreciate anything ... that was not just "given" to you.
The beret's were earned and represented an elite group of guys that went trough hell to EARN the right to wear it. By letting just any soldier wear the beret.... is a slap in the face to those living who earned the right to wear it, and those who died wearing it. Even those in the military that are now going to be wearing the beret without having earned it.... are doing so with some reluctance. Rightfully so.
You ironically are right about something....
NOW it is "just a hat".
Look who is talking down and can't stand to have someone not approve of their opinion, RedFace.
As to whether or not you respect me, that is of little import. I had no beef with you till you personally attacked my intelligence.
I think you and your opinions suck, they still smack me of someone who is quick to jump into something they know nothing about and then start bandying insults around like a child when someone has the temerity to actually stand up to you.
Wait, I used a smiley face so it's ok, just like you did.
As for the hat, it's in the end a hat. This is a stupid argument after all. And I wore one for a while.
DR
As to whether or not you respect me, that is of little import. I had no beef with you till you personally attacked my intelligence.
I think you and your opinions suck, they still smack me of someone who is quick to jump into something they know nothing about and then start bandying insults around like a child when someone has the temerity to actually stand up to you.
Wait, I used a smiley face so it's ok, just like you did.
As for the hat, it's in the end a hat. This is a stupid argument after all. And I wore one for a while.
DR
Red: Receiving criticism that I complain too much from someone such as yourself strikes me as the proverbial pot and the kettle. Your virulent protestions in the political threads and your incessant whining about the two party system, without any recognition of its benefits in the meantime, is a marvelous lesson in ignorance. Or, if you have some brilliant replacement for the current political system, I'd love to hear it. The only solution that I have heard from you is John McCain. Somehow I don't see him as the political messiah of our generation.
As for the topic at hand, you're basically right that it is not a tremendous problem, the issue of a beret. However, it's indicative of a couple things to me, one of which I have already mentioned (morale). Further, it is indicative of a rather common and eternal problem in the military, one of the lack of connection between the brass and the troops. This is a perfect example of that problem -- giving everyone a new hat to give them a new outlook, I suppose.
It is much the same as the Air Force has done recently with changing the uniform and proposing a change in the E1-E4 grade names (not sure of the current status of that one) to replace "airman". WTF? It's stupid, useless, and condescending to those in the ranks. Here are some pretty new clothes (airline pilots!) and some spiffy new names (warrior???) -- now be happy. Instead of focusing manpower and brainpower on national security, they are fscking with things that do not need to be fixed as political correctness belongs nowhere near the uniformed services. The integration of women is fine, for example, as long as that integration serves a purpose for the services and as long as it does not damage the cohesiveness and capability of military units. Unfortunately, the integration of a minority (in the military community) into new jobs will always be done with political considerations in mind to the detriment of readiness. Oh, Company A has a female XO, Company B needs one, too (A may have earned it, B did not).
That's my underlying premise with this thread.
As for the topic at hand, you're basically right that it is not a tremendous problem, the issue of a beret. However, it's indicative of a couple things to me, one of which I have already mentioned (morale). Further, it is indicative of a rather common and eternal problem in the military, one of the lack of connection between the brass and the troops. This is a perfect example of that problem -- giving everyone a new hat to give them a new outlook, I suppose.
It is much the same as the Air Force has done recently with changing the uniform and proposing a change in the E1-E4 grade names (not sure of the current status of that one) to replace "airman". WTF? It's stupid, useless, and condescending to those in the ranks. Here are some pretty new clothes (airline pilots!) and some spiffy new names (warrior???) -- now be happy. Instead of focusing manpower and brainpower on national security, they are fscking with things that do not need to be fixed as political correctness belongs nowhere near the uniformed services. The integration of women is fine, for example, as long as that integration serves a purpose for the services and as long as it does not damage the cohesiveness and capability of military units. Unfortunately, the integration of a minority (in the military community) into new jobs will always be done with political considerations in mind to the detriment of readiness. Oh, Company A has a female XO, Company B needs one, too (A may have earned it, B did not).
That's my underlying premise with this thread.
Red Dawn..
If you don't think it bothers the select few who earned the right to wear the beret in the past... you're dead wrong. Just ask. Every single soldier that wore the beret with pride before the new law... will let you know in short order. It's bullsh*t.
You don't think you really understand the issue. Actually its obvious you just don't care about it. Which is fine.... but don't pretend to know what you are talking about.
I enjoy reading your jibberish as much as anyone. Keep up the good
work.
If you don't think it bothers the select few who earned the right to wear the beret in the past... you're dead wrong. Just ask. Every single soldier that wore the beret with pride before the new law... will let you know in short order. It's bullsh*t.
You don't think you really understand the issue. Actually its obvious you just don't care about it. Which is fine.... but don't pretend to know what you are talking about.
I enjoy reading your jibberish as much as anyone. Keep up the good
work.
I think he's just flaming me to get a rise out of me. "Red Face."
LOL
Whatever.... I have put up with worse, and have been called worse. I don't care. I'm still annoyed about the hats though.
DR
LOL
Whatever.... I have put up with worse, and have been called worse. I don't care. I'm still annoyed about the hats though.
DR
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