Democracy - maybe this is as good as it gets?

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piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
The founding fathers wanted a weak fed govt and a strong state govt. They understood that a giant federal or central govt is just prime for waste and curruption. So what we are trying to do today is the exact opposite. The more centralized our government gets the more corrupt and wasteful it becomes. We are doomed the way things are headed. After the IRS scandall, it is obvious the federal govt wastes about 2/3rds of our tax money. This is why we need to dial back O'Bammacare. Health Care is one area where the most fraud and overspending can put us in the poor house really fast. If you look at SS and Welfare and Medicare. In our budget guess what costs the most?

Medical Care!
 
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ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
33,588
17,121
136
Democracy only works if the people remain diligent in being educated about policies, politicians, issues, etc.

How's our education system working out? Now you see the problem.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,035
55,506
136
The founding fathers wanted a weak fed govt and a strong state govt. They understood that a giant federal or central govt is just prime for waste and curruption. So what we are trying to do today is the exact opposite. The more centralized our government gets the more corrupt and wasteful it becomes. We are doomed the way things are headed. After the IRS scandall, it is obvious the federal govt wastes about 2/3rds of our tax money. This is why we need to dial back O'Bammacare. Health Care is one area where the most fraud and overspending can put us in the poor house really fast. If you look at SS and Welfare and Medicare. In our budget guess what costs the most?

Medical Care!

You realize the entire purpose of the constitution was to create a strong federal government, right?
 

OGOC

Senior member
Jun 14, 2013
312
0
76
Maybe the question we should be asking is, can anyone lead in a large democracy like the U.S.?
The country isn't supposed to have all these federal agencies that basically don't report to anyone. In various ways, they basically are working outside of the law.

I didn't realize until a few weeks ago how out of control tuition was. I don't know what happened but I graduated a bit over a decade ago and didn't pay anything near this. Almost half.

The more easy and "free" money the government pumps into the system, the more prices go up. Stop all the government loan programs and things, and watch prices drop.

The founding fathers wanted a weak fed govt and a strong state govt. They understood that a giant federal or central govt is just prime for waste and curruption. So what we are trying to do today is the exact opposite. The more centralized our government gets the more corrupt and wasteful it becomes. We are doomed the way things are headed.
Yep.
You realize the entire purpose of the constitution was to create a strong federal government, right?

Sort of. It was also to limit the power of the federal government so it didn't become a monstrosity like it is now.

And this is where I remind people we're supposed to be a republic not a democracy, because democracies suck.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
14,243
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Well it was never originally intended to exist at all, it's just an outgrowth of never creating parliamentary rules to limit debate.

It was less harmful in the past because it was used sparingly, but there have never been any institutional requirements that force it to be used sparingly. Having rules for governance that are dependent on people deciding to behave well is never a good idea.

Yeah, that is true, but it took a long time before it really started getting abused. I guess the Senate just can't be trusted with it anymore.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,449
0
0
A society that is born and lives by the gun will probably die by the gun.

Nice one liner. Love the cliche.

Care to explain your reasoning? Considering that what Tupac said was "Live by the gun die by the gun" I'm curious if you just misquoted or stretched it out from gangsters to this thread about democracy.
 

colonelciller

Senior member
Sep 29, 2012
915
0
0
this thread seems to be focused on the US... perhaps should be retitled "US Democracy"

problems with "democracy" in the US do not reveal inherent problems with democracy in general... my suggestion is to look to european democracies to see how particular troubles with the US system simply disappear (albeit there are surely other troublesome issues in those).
 

OGOC

Senior member
Jun 14, 2013
312
0
76
this thread seems to be focused on the US... perhaps should be retitled "US Democracy"

problems with "democracy" in the US do not reveal inherent problems with democracy in general... my suggestion is to look to european democracies to see how particular troubles with the US system simply disappear (albeit there are surely other troublesome issues in those).

We're going to need examples.
Did you have in mind something like the European Union? :D
 

bradly1101

Diamond Member
May 5, 2013
4,689
294
126
www.bradlygsmith.org
Nice one liner. Love the cliche.

Care to explain your reasoning? Considering that what Tupac said was "Live by the gun die by the gun" I'm curious if you just misquoted or stretched it out from gangsters to this thread about democracy.

I'm not sure. I know it is pretty cliché. Tupac as in Star Trek? Maybe that's where I heard it years ago.

I think violence begets violence. We can't even be honest about conquering this land. We call it 'destiny'. Why do we call the Spanish invasion 'conquering', but our violent invasion was just fulfilling destiny?

We can't remake the world in our image. Sooner or later I think we'll be challenged in a big way. Maybe not in my lifetime, and maybe we can reverse that potential track if we stop going around and pissing people off.

But back to democracy. I don't think the founders would have wanted so much political power to be in so few hands.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
5,449
0
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When the Romans were the most powerful they pissed people off. When the Egyptians were they pissed people off. Same for the British, Americans, and everyone else.

So even if the USA isn't the most powerful country and gets replaced by China I can assure you that the Chinese will piss everyone off. That's just the nature of the beast.
 

Happy_Helper

Junior Member
Jun 21, 2013
19
0
66
The "Why can't Democrats lead?" thread got locked (so let's not beat that dead horse again), but maybe it asks the wrong question. Maybe the question we should be asking is, can anyone lead in a large democracy like the U.S.?

To address these interests, we've got a President, a Supreme Court, and a legislative body of 535 people, of which the average voter only gets to vote for 3. And we expect efficient and effective gov't from this? Is this even a realistic expectation in a nation of this size?

Someone in the other thread suggested our system wasn't designed to be efficient - it was designed to be inefficient, to limit the potential for abuses.

So why do we expect the representative gov't of a nation this side to anywhere near as effective, especially with the constant level of churn in the top ranks?

Thoughts? And please try to keep this nonpartisan - I'm only interested in structural issues here, not whether one party is any better than the other in actually running our country.

7% of the population works for the government. A lot of the government employees are experts in their fields and report to those above them who report to those above them who report to Congress about things that are needed or testify to congressional committees or advise congressmen and cabinet members and agency directors. Probably about 20-40% of the population gets involved in some way and tells Congress what they think is needed. The notorious 1% heavily involve themselves as well with lobbyists who make their points to Congress and the administration. The representatives heed the advice and needs of all these people. This doesn't happen in a vacuum, it's not as if they hear nothing once they are elected.

All Congress does is make the laws, all the President does is make sure they get executed, all the courts do is make sure they are fair and make people pay up when they don't obey them. The rest of the (13million who work for the) government makes stuff like roads and airports and mail delivery and mass-education happen, and the rest of the people (not in government) make everything else happen. It seems like a pretty good, efficient way to do things to me. Stuff (that we the people determine) the free-market doesn't handle adequately eventually gets handled by government, the rest gets handled by the private sector.

Not sure what you find so inefficient about it. I think that notion is ridiculous. It is efficient and has been amazingly successful (Top of the world for over 100 years, the most amazing and rapidly changing 100 years in human history, at that). Out of all the countries in the world, this is pretty much the only one that didn't get obliterated (at least once) in the past 100 years; do we chalk that up to our "inefficient government" or luck/geography? Both, I'd say (without the "inefficient" adjective). Sorry, I forgot, Sweden can say that, too. Can not think of any government in history that has protected it's peoples' rights and property as well as this one has (oh, except maybe Sweden) for so long.

Businesses and military are undemocratic institutions, that's for sure. Maybe if the military were democratic we'd have far fewer wars and far fewer casualties of war (but then again, we wouldn't be #1 in the world economically or militarily, either, most likely). Just imagine how few wars we'd get in if we weren't allowed to lie to and brainwash our soldiers, too! But I think we have democratically decided that the men who defend the country should be commanded by those we have elected, not solely by themselves, for good reason. Kinda like the police enforce our laws that we've enacted, not whatever laws they think should exist.

Business is pretty democratic at the top, just the legions of workers, like soldiers, have no input whatsoever on what happens in any given enterprise. Sufficiently educating everyone would largely change that.