Dell: Exploding batteries are Sony's fault

[dullard]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
You obviously don't know what happened with the Dell batteries.

Lithium-Ion batteries are constructed with coated anode and cathode foils separated by thin layers of polymer material, said Dan Doughty, manager of the Advanced Power Sources Research and Development Department at Sandia National Laboratory.

"It looks like a jelly roll. You get a high surface area with thin layers. The thinner they go with the separators, the more room there is for the active material," Doughty said.

The coated layers are wound up on commercial machines to create the individual Li-ion cell, and it's at that stage that contaminants, such as metallic particals, can get embedded in the battery cell. The metallic particles mentioned by Sony and Dell may have been cast off by those commercial machines, he said.

Generally, the polymer separator is very thin -- less than 25 micron (one millionth of a meter) thick. If that is punctured by an electrically conductive material, like a metal particle, the battery cell's anode and cathode short circuit, Doughty said.

He said an internal short circuit was "the worst scenario in battery design, because there's nothing you can do to control it," he said. In contrast, manufacturers have a variety of measures to guard the battery contents from external threats, like ambient heat.

Based on its conversations with Dell, Sony strengthened and reinforced the protective barriers and lining of their battery cells to address the danger of metal particles piercing the lining of the cell, Clancy said.

http://www.laptoplogic.com/news/detail.php?id=1303

EDIT But it is true that out of a few million batteries, one will melt. That wasn't this case.

What does any of that have to do with my comment? Please boil it down for the poor Dullard.

22 million batteries that Dell had from Sony, 4 million recalled, 6 total bad batteries known.

 

[Dacalo]

It's UMD used for PSP noob, not UWD. If you are going to rip them, do it right at least.

 

[AMDZen]

"It is the configuration. We use the same batteries in our Vaios, and have our own safeguards against potential overheating. Other manufacturers which use the same cells haven't come forward with any issues. On rare occasions, a short circuit can occur, but this is affected by systems configurations found in different laptops," the representative said.



Frankly I'm inclined to agree with Sony here. This doesn't mean I don't PRAY for the downfall of Blu-ray, because I would love that - but in this situation, I think Apple and Dell are at least as much to blame as Sony if not more so

 

[Jawo]

Sony sucks....as well as anyone that uses propritary technology for memory storage! Sony Memory Sticks FTL!

 

[dpopiz]

yep. the future is in cheap, low grade manufacturing combined with excellent safeguard design and control systems theory. that is a fact you have to accept. so from a future perspective it is COMPLETELY reasonable of sony and COMPLETELY dell+apple's fault


^NO SARCASM

 

[KK]

Originally posted by: Jawo
Sony sucks....as well as anyone that uses propritary technology for memory storage! Sony Memory Sticks FTL!

No crap, I hate them only because of that damn memory stick.

 

[Coldkilla]

I just think its a bandwagen. Soon google's going to be public enemy number 1.

 

[gsellis]

OK, here comes the next Apple vs PC video ad:

Open on a cloud. PC and Apple both have halos and wings.

PC: "Hey, you were the last person I expected to see here. You keep telling me how good you are, and you died so young."

Apple: "Yeah. I died in a fire."

PC: "Me too! Sony killed me."

Apple: "Me too! Sorry man, I have been picking on the wrong guy."

 

[DurocShark]

Originally posted by: AMDZen
"It is the configuration. We use the same batteries in our Vaios, and have our own safeguards against potential overheating. Other manufacturers which use the same cells haven't come forward with any issues. On rare occasions, a short circuit can occur, but this is affected by systems configurations found in different laptops," the representative said.



Frankly I'm inclined to agree with Sony here. This doesn't mean I don't PRAY for the downfall of Blu-ray, because I would love that - but in this situation, I think Apple and Dell are at least as much to blame as Sony if not more so

If Sony knew about the configuration issues, why didn't they inform Dell and Apple? If they had, they'd be parading the fact in the media. They aren't.

And even if so, why should Dell and Apple design their laptops to mask the flaws in Sony's batteries?

I'm definitely not a Dell fanboy, but they were awesome in their response here. "We'll replace your battery, whether it failed or not, and deal with the costs later."

:thumbsup:

 

[tm37]

Originally posted by: dpopiz
yep. the future is in cheap, low grade manufacturing combined with excellent safeguard design and control systems theory. that is a fact you have to accept. so from a future perspective it is COMPLETELY reasonable of sony and COMPLETELY dell+apple's fault


^NO SARCASM

You have no reason to say that unless you have read the contract and who is responsible for testing.

For instance We outsource most board builds to contractors.

In some contracts they are responcible for man. defects and in others we are. INcluding liability.

NO Bussiness signs a vendor contract worth these battery deal without assigning liability and judging by the reaction of sony I am going to guess that liability lies with them. It is clear you have no idea how big bussiness and the outsourcing of manufacturing effects who is responsible

 

[loic2003]

Originally posted by: Coldkilla
I just think its a bandwagen. Soon google's going to be public enemy number 1.

yeah, you need 51% market share or more to be hated, it seems. It's kind of childish.

Sony had some bad practices such as the rootkit and proprietry memory stick interface, not to mention their DAP, but having a little cry because some batteries were dodgy is too much. They make a shed-load of stuff, and these li-ion cells contain so much energy that it's obvious they can be unstable. Pretty much every company out there has had to have some kind of a recall at one stage or another. Being so large means there can be comminucation breakdowns, and this is likely the result of something like this.

They aren't going to go bust any time soon. joe sixpack has no idea about these goings ons, and Sony still is hugely popular. Remember you're talking in the nerd comminuty here so it would appear that the above is common knowledge, but it simply isn't the case.

Sony will be here for a long, long time. Probably even when the OP hits puberty.

 

[Inspector Jihad]

i like sony a whole bunch...i think they make awesome stuff with awesome design. Sure, some of it costs a bit more, but I think its worth it.

On another note, I went to the Sony Style store at the KOP mall, and they had some sweet stuff there. Movies in HD look amazing

 

[jemcam]

I've hated anything Sony that takes a memory stick because of their idiotic proprietary memory cards.

That being said, I, umm, just bought a 55" DLP and a HTIB that is Sony.

Even though I hate Sony, I still like their TV's, DVD players and Home theater systems.

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
You obviously don't know what happened with the Dell batteries.

Lithium-Ion batteries are constructed with coated anode and cathode foils separated by thin layers of polymer material, said Dan Doughty, manager of the Advanced Power Sources Research and Development Department at Sandia National Laboratory.

"It looks like a jelly roll. You get a high surface area with thin layers. The thinner they go with the separators, the more room there is for the active material," Doughty said.

The coated layers are wound up on commercial machines to create the individual Li-ion cell, and it's at that stage that contaminants, such as metallic particals, can get embedded in the battery cell. The metallic particles mentioned by Sony and Dell may have been cast off by those commercial machines, he said.

Generally, the polymer separator is very thin -- less than 25 micron (one millionth of a meter) thick. If that is punctured by an electrically conductive material, like a metal particle, the battery cell's anode and cathode short circuit, Doughty said.

He said an internal short circuit was "the worst scenario in battery design, because there's nothing you can do to control it," he said. In contrast, manufacturers have a variety of measures to guard the battery contents from external threats, like ambient heat.

Based on its conversations with Dell, Sony strengthened and reinforced the protective barriers and lining of their battery cells to address the danger of metal particles piercing the lining of the cell, Clancy said.

http://www.laptoplogic.com/news/detail.php?id=1303

EDIT But it is true that out of a few million batteries, one will melt. That wasn't this case.

What does any of that have to do with my comment? Please boil it down for the poor Dullard.

22 million batteries that Dell had from Sony, 4 million recalled, 6 total bad batteries known.

The fact of the matter is that it is a known defect that puts consumers in danger. Would you say the same thing if you were driving an early model Pinto? :roll:

 

[0roo0roo]

imagine if we had electric cars kaboom!! damn u sony!

 

[Kibbo86]

Originally posted by: Soccerman06
Blame Sony, blame Sony, blame Sony blah blah blah, its Dells fault for not testing the batteries properly in the first place.

The batteries are the fault of whichever company was responsible for quality control on the batteries. This would have been outlined in the contract between the two companies, and as such is unknowable to us.

For the record, I don't buy either sony or dell products. Not liked either for years.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
The fact of the matter is that it is a known defect that puts consumers in danger. Would you say the same thing if you were driving an early model Pinto? :roll:

The fact of the matter is that the batteries were out in customers hands BEFORE the defect was known. I'm simply stated:

1) that you CANNOT blame Dell for not testing properly.

I didn't elaborate in this thread but:

2) you CAN blame both Dell and Sony for continuing to sell the batteries after it was known.

You are attacking #1 which shows ignorance and/or bias on your part. When in fact I think you are intending to discuss #2.

 

[amdhunter]

I :heart: SONY.

 

[j00fek]

nothing new here, i think that anyone with a head on their shoulders would think this too

 

[fbrdphreak]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
The fact of the matter is that it is a known defect that puts consumers in danger. Would you say the same thing if you were driving an early model Pinto? :roll:

The fact of the matter is that the batteries were out in customers hands BEFORE the defect was known. I'm simply stated:

1) that you CANNOT blame Dell for not testing properly.

I didn't elaborate in this thread but:

2) you CAN blame both Dell and Sony for continuing to sell the batteries after it was known.

You are attacking #1 which shows ignorance and/or bias on your part. When in fact I think you are intending to discuss #2.

I didn't think I was blaming Dell for not testing properly. What I was saying was in response to your "It is 6 out of millions of batteries." You made it sound like this was just the expected failure rate, when in fact it was a known defect.
Dell couldn't test the batteries further, no. But I'd be willing to bet Dell's cost cutting reduced the quality or even QA on the products to the point that this became a problem. Again, you don't see Thinkpads with this problem, Lenovo incorporates active power monitoring to shut down the battery were this a problem.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak
I didn't think I was blaming Dell for not testing properly. What I was saying was in response to your "It is 6 out of millions of batteries." You made it sound like this was just the expected failure rate, when in fact it was a known defect.

Dell couldn't test the batteries further, no. But I'd be willing to bet Dell's cost cutting reduced the quality or even QA on the products to the point that this became a problem. Again, you don't see Thinkpads with this problem, Lenovo incorporates active power monitoring to shut down the battery were this a problem.

Well then I didn't read your posts as intended.
[*]Loke blamed Dell for not testing enough.
[*]I asked how Dell could have possibly tested enough initially? I should have gone on to say that Dell is to blame for continuing to use the batteries after they knew of the problem. However, I was trying to make a point that testing probably would not have detected this problem.
[*]You attacked me, and I assumed it was because I discussed testing.

So, my assumption was wrong. But I think it was a reasonable assumption to make based on the post that you attacked.

Dell may be to blame for using the batteries as they did. However, Sony is to blame for making batteries that cannot function safely in standard usage. Yes, you can attempt to work around the problem, but the fundamental problem still lies with Sony. What if the active power monitoring fails? The faulty Sony battery can still cause a problem. Masking the problem does not solve the problem.

 

[loup garou]

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Exploding batteries are Sony's fault

Sony's manufacturing process is at fault, but Dell is partly responsible because their design doesn't incorporate an active power management chip into the battery to constantly monitor power circumstances. Thinkpads do, they use Sony batteries, yet none have been recalled and you don't hear about them exploding. The active power management would completely shut down the battery if certain parameters got out of safety values, same with AC input.

ThinkPad explodes at LAX.

 

[Babbles]

Years ago I got turned off of Sony after buying a few crappy products. This just reminds me again how Sony really isn't all about quality, however people perceive that Sony has good quality.

 

[chcarnage]

I've read a good article about the battery problem in a German IT magazine. It reports that technological progresses for laptop batteries have happened very slowly for a few years. This drove the battery market towards strong competition and experiments with thinner insulation layers to improve the energy density of laptop batteries.

However, there might be cases where the laptop manufacturers and not the battery producers are to blame. Some manufactures lifted the maximum voltage in their battery software over the specified limit, from 2.4 V to 2.5 per cell, this results in about 10% more capacity but can put the battery's life span or even security at risk.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: loup garou

Originally posted by: fbrdphreak

Exploding batteries are Sony's fault

Sony's manufacturing process is at fault, but Dell is partly responsible because their design doesn't incorporate an active power management chip into the battery to constantly monitor power circumstances. Thinkpads do, they use Sony batteries, yet none have been recalled and you don't hear about them exploding. The active power management would completely shut down the battery if certain parameters got out of safety values, same with AC input.

ThinkPad explodes at LAX.

Yep just saw that. Guess even IBM lappys are not safe