Delicious irony: Big Business using climate change to screw over poor and blue states

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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I fully support this. After all, climate change is "settled science" and we need to take whatever measures we can, right? While our local leftists think climate change is about about banning SUVs for suburbanite 'breeders', getting a bit more light rail funding for their downtown, and getting to send some tax dollars to the less fortunate nations, businesses have other ideas. Since it's mostly about just sucking money out of wallets anyway, why not businesses instead of the government? Obama already handed insurance companies a huge pile of money by mandating people carry health insurance or face a penalty, I guess the insurers figured that blue states would be compliant in letting them hit up the middle and lower classes a second time. And this couldn't happen to nicer people than Illinois.


http://www.eenews.net/stories/1059999532

Illinois Farmers Insurance Co. is suing Chicago for failing to prevent flooding related to climate change in what experts say could be a landmark case that accelerates local efforts to grapple with the impacts of climbing temperatures.

The insurance company filed nine class-action lawsuits last month alleging that dozens of Chicago-area municipalities are responsible for the damage caused by a two-day downpour last year in April. The company claims that local officials are aware that climate change is causing heavier rainfalls but failed to prevent sewage backups in more than 600 homes by draining water from the region's system of tunnels and retention basins before the storm.

Farmers is asking to be reimbursed for the claims it paid to homeowners who sometimes saw geysers of sewage ruin basement walls, floors and furniture. The company says it also paid policyholders for lost income, the cost of evacuations and other damages related to declining property values. But some analysts say that Farmers likely has a bigger prize in mind.

The company, which is a subsidiary of global giant Zurich Insurance Group, could be positioning itself to avoid future losses nationwide from claims linked to floods, sea-level rise and even lawsuits against its corporate policyholders that emit greenhouse gases, said Andrew Logan, an insurance expert with Ceres.

In 2012, a different Zurich subsidiary, Steadfast Insurance Co., won another high-profile climate fight: Steadfast fought a claim submitted by its policyholder AES Corp., an electric utility, stemming from a lawsuit by Kivalina, Alaska, that accused AES of contributing to climate change by emitting carbon dioxide. The Virginia Supreme Court ruled that Steadfast wasn't liable for AES's pollution.

When viewed together, Zurich's two climate cases might represent a broader strategy to insulate itself from climate losses, Logan said. The company protected itself from corporate claims related to emissions with the Steadfast case; now it seems to be separating itself from municipal losses in Illinois.

"I guess if you're an insurer that's really worried about the scale of liability that you might face from climate change, this would be a pretty smart way to begin to put up some walls around yourself," Logan said. "The dollars at stake [in the Illinois case] are much smaller than the precedent that's being set."

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Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
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Illinois Farmers Insurance Co. is suing Chicago for failing to prevent flooding related to climate change in what experts say could be a landmark case that accelerates local efforts to grapple with the impacts of climbing temperatures.

That isn't how it works. Straw-man arguments aren't acceptable in a court of law.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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I would expect the City and the other communities this insurer is suing enjoy sovereign immunity from a suit like this. In any case only a truly hardened cynic and troll would consider it a good thing that an insurance company is suing a city based on the city's discretionary operations, and the OP clearly appears to qualify as both.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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That isn't how it works. Straw-man arguments aren't acceptable in a court of law.

You do realize that this is just the first step, and future policies will have "local municpal service inadequacy due to climate change" written specifically into the contract and be used to deny claims?
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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I would expect the City and the other communities this insurer is suing enjoy sovereign immunity from a suit like this. In any case only a truly hardened cynic and troll would consider it a good thing that an insurance company is suing a city based on the city's discretionary operations, and the OP clearly appears to qualify as both.

If it's being a troll to agree with an insurance company that has a point, so be it. The infrastructure in many American cities sucks ass due to decades of underinvestment and neglect. In many cases it's due to supremely poor choices by cities if not outright corruption. I agree that insurers shouldn't be held accoutable if Chicago won't or can't build sewers which can handle the need and cause flooding to resident's houses. Either way, the residents will pay for it, either by increased taxes or increased insurance premia and denied claims. And I strenously disagree with Uncle Sam stepping in to pick up the slack on what are exclusively local utility projects, pay for it yourselves you metro fucks.
 

MasterOfUsers

Senior member
May 5, 2014
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You do realize that this is just the first step, and future policies will have "local municpal service inadequacy due to climate change" written specifically into the contract and be used to deny claims?

You do realize that they will have to pay out of pocket to sustain these frivolous suits?

I hope you are not buying insurance from then because it will have to go up once they are bitch slapped into reality. If the city should know, so should they and their premiums should reflect the potential cost you dolt.
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
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I agree with it, only when I can harm someone else with it.

Sounds about right,.. carry on then, creep.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
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Not suprising that a conservative supports frivolous lawsuits and corrupt insurance companies.... not surpising in the least.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Not suprising that a conservative supports frivolous lawsuits and corrupt insurance companies.... not surpising in the least.

Yep, climate change and lawsuits about environmental issues are lots of fun, until it's a big business bringing the lawsuit rather than being its target. You'd be at the front of the mob in support if it was Illinois suing the insurance company on climate change grounds instead of vice versa. Or when it's people filing lawsuits against states to enforce what you think are "good" laws and government spending. But when it's the state or city outright failing its citizens in one of its core duties, you suddenly line up in its defense just because it's one of those evil "big businesses" trying to call it to account.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Apply what I said to slippery slope and other logical fallacies too. :thumbsup:

Courts work on evidence, unlike some people.

Yes, evidence like insurance contracts. Which will now be written to specifically account for the failure of these governments to build adequate infrastructure.
 

MasterOfUsers

Senior member
May 5, 2014
423
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Yep, climate change and lawsuits about environmental issues are lots of fun, until it's a big business bringing the lawsuit rather than being its target. You'd be at the front of the mob in support if it was Illinois suing the insurance company on climate change grounds instead of vice versa. Or when it's people filing lawsuits against states to enforce what you think are "good" laws and government spending. But when it's the state or city outright failing its citizens in one of its core duties, you suddenly line up in its defense just because it's one of those evil "big businesses" trying to call it to account.

You do realize that what i said previously is true? If this was something the city CAUSED without the insurance companies knowledge they would have a case.

This is just another frivolous lawsuit that is so daft it will be thrown out before being heard.

I assume you support such suits?
 

Rakehellion

Lifer
Jan 15, 2013
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Yes, evidence like insurance contracts. Which will now be written to specifically account for the failure of these governments to build adequate infrastructure.

And clients will have the option to change insurance providers.

Courts today work on who has better funded lawyers.

That's a heavy-handed explanation, but you can't prove something that doesn't exist. Better lawyers redefine what it means to have a legal victory.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
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You do realize that they will have to pay out of pocket to sustain these frivolous suits?

I hope you are not buying insurance from then because it will have to go up once they are bitch slapped into reality. If the city should know, so should they and their premiums should reflect the potential cost you dolt.

If we don't pay out of pocket for the frivolous lawsuit, it will just come out for the frivolous carbon tax.
 

MasterOfUsers

Senior member
May 5, 2014
423
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And clients will have the option to change insurance providers.



That's a heavy-handed explanation, but you can't prove something that doesn't exist. Better lawyers redefine what it means to have a legal victory.

Well, you actually need to have ANY law on your side no matter how good your lawyers are.

They have none in this case, this is pandering to a group for support and nothing else and that group will surely happily pay for absolutely nothing.

It's better to pay for nothing than for something (if it benefits others) is the mantra of this particular group.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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Not sure about climate change angle, but if city is at fault for allowing the sewage to back up, then it should have to reimburse the homeowner's insurance company, unless the homeowner explicitly absolved the city of such responsibility as part of the service agreement.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
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Thanks OP.

Interesting. I'm curious to see where this goes, if it does go anywhere.

Fern
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
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Not sure about climate change angle, but if city is at fault for allowing the sewage to back up, then it should have to reimburse the homeowner's insurance company, unless the homeowner explicitly absolved the city of such responsibility as part of the service agreement.

That is what I was thinking.

I think they would have to show the city knew their system couldn't handle a typical 100 year event and did nothing about it. At least around here hydrology maps get redone on a set schedule and if things change, the cities start working to the new maps.

The global warming angle is just BS, though. Farmers is probably hoping to pick up the Chik-Fila crowd.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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It's certainly an interesting case as it hinges on two different elements, design and operation. The design element may be weak, but the operational element seems to me to be stronger. It's one thing to not assume that heavier than historic rainfall will occur in the future, quite another to not drain the system (thereby maximizing retention potential) before an expected storm hits.

For the design element, Chicago set a record in 2013 for the first six months. Considering that, one could also make a case for mitigating fault in operation. In order to drain the system, there must be some accessible place capable of taking the additional discharge. I don't know that by April that was available for Chicago.
 

MasterOfUsers

Senior member
May 5, 2014
423
0
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Not sure about climate change angle, but if city is at fault for allowing the sewage to back up, then it should have to reimburse the homeowner's insurance company, unless the homeowner explicitly absolved the city of such responsibility as part of the service agreement.

That would only work if it's not Force Majeure in which case no party would be responsible, the actual lawsuit is only because they believe the city should have forecasted it because of global warming.

It's a stupid fucking thing and has nothing to do with the common sense you are trying to go with.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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That would only work if it's not Force Majeure in which case no party would be responsible, the actual lawsuit is only because they believe the city should have forecasted it because of global warming.

It's a stupid fucking thing and has nothing to do with the common sense you are trying to go with.

Which again goes to the point. If the predictions of global warming come true (more rainstorms in the Midwest, etc) then is it negligence for cities/states to not improve infrastructure to account for predicted conditions thus leading to avoidable losses for citizens (and in turn, insurers)? Basically, do localities owe this as a duty of care to their citizens?
 

MasterOfUsers

Senior member
May 5, 2014
423
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Which again goes to the point. If the predictions of global warming come true (more rainstorms in the Midwest, etc) then is it negligence for cities/states to not improve infrastructure to account for predicted conditions thus leading to avoidable losses for citizens (and in turn, insurers)? Basically, do localities owe this as a duty of care to their citizens?

Which is retarded, since the insurance companies are privvy to the same information as the city is.

This whole thing is a retarded person going "blerha murh bah" and that is ALL it is.

Thank you for repeating that you utter twit.
 

Zaap

Diamond Member
Jun 12, 2008
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Money is all this was ever about. Eventually, only the biggest, most powerful companies will be able to operate (polluting as much as they want, but able to buy off politicians running carbon credit schemes and the like) while they use crushingly expensive enviro-regs to run their small business competition out of business. Then they can charge whatever they want for everything.

Pretty much anything statists rail against (huge out of control businesses, pollution, price gouging) always expect much MORE of it under any policies they set up.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,486
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You know what I would call delicious irony? Farmers suing glenn1 for global warming/extreme weather by driving his stupid fuel hungry truck. Now, THAT would be delicious irony.