His yarmulke was in the way of the comment so he did not see it.
Please forgive him.
His yarmulke was in the way of the comment so he did not see it.
Please forgive him.
WelshBloke
Lifer
- Jan 12, 2005
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Wait until we find an older race than the jew or muslims who claim Israel for themselves who had it longer than any other race. Watch the Rabbis go up in arms over that.
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
Where are the Caananites? The victims of the Israeli people's first genocide...
I'm guessing your ancestors are guilty of genocide at some point as well, so that hardly seems relevant.
There's a popular conception that Jews were shipped into Palestine as a reaction to the Holocaust, but the historical reality is that Zionism and the external powers that wanted it and allowed it predate the Holocaust by about 50 years. Although the Holocaust added a big push to making it happen and making it happen bigger. But there were still a bunch of Jews in the region before that, the powers that be had still been teasing them with statehood for a long time. Not just the British colonists who seized the land; the Hashemite rulers also supported a Jewish state, not only by Emir Faisal following World War 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faisal%E2%80%93Weizmann_Agreement), but even by Abdullah I with respect to the UN partition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_I_of_Jordan). This was undoubtedly done out of their own political/expansionist interests, but still exists as a counterpoint to your conditions.
As for motivations in Christianity.. there was some of that. Both in how Israel fulfilled prophecies and out of general religious affinity. And I agree, that still exists toady. At the same time, another motivation for the British to aid in Zionism was flat out wanting Jews out of Europe. This was in no small way a response to the "Jewish problem" that had been asked for centuries. And plenty of Christians hated or even still hate Jews on the basis of the crucifixion.
I don't agree with you that Israel only gets away with anything today because of the Holocaust or Christian motivation, I think it's more complicated than that. No first world country really wants to get into a war with another country that is ostensibly first world, especially one that has nukes. They're probably also coy about enacting sanctions against a country with whom they have a lot of economic ties. And over a pretty messy issue that has a lot of historical baggage and is hard to view as perpetrated entirely by one side (well okay, I'm sure a lot of people here view that)
Where are the Caananites? The victims of the Israeli people's first genocide...
Do you have any historical evidence that such a thing even happened?
lozina
Lifer
- Sep 10, 2001
- 11,711
- 8
- 81
Sorry if that wasn't clear, but when I said historical source I wasn't looking for Bible references. I know what the Bible has to say about this.
And kind of hard to use it to make your point when the same book justifies the actions by saying God Almighty himself commanded it.
I mean, that's one reason to not take it seriously.
Did you happen to read the article linked where Hamas and residents of Gaza as well as some of the West Bank were in the streets cheering that the tourists were killed.
These people were at a religious site, not engaged in political activity, nor were they Israelis (yes they had dual citizenship but how would the perps know that).
Because Palestinians killed someone in Jerusalem, Hamas and Gaza is happy. That speaks well for the peace movement trying to reduce tensions
A line has to be drawn somewhere in order to move forward.
I have not seen the Arabs draw that line and supporters are willing to accept that.
Israel accepted their initial borders in '47. The Arabs did not.
Israel accepted the borders prior to '67. The Arabs did not.
You wish to punish Israel for defending itself and to continue to do so.
When are the Arabs going to stop trying to take Israel and accept that Israel exists?
Hamas/Hezbollah/PLO have yet to stop attacking Israel; then they complain and the world listens when Israel slaps back at them.
Even the last round this summer; Israel was being condemned because they were able to defend themselves against intended casualties. People here and around the world were stating that because Israel had so few casualties, compared to the Palestinians in Gaza that it was unfair for the attacks on Gaza.
People want the Palestinians to be able to attack Israel without repercussion.
War is unfair and do not start a fight if you are not prepared to win or at least get bloodied.
some kind of invasion happened:
"Scholars date the invasion of the Israelites to about 1250 BCE and archaeological excavations in the region have confirmed some kind of disturbance in the region between 1250 and 1200 BCE which resulted in the destruction of Canaanite towns and cities. These ruins, however, do not always match the descriptions given in the Book of Joshua.
Even so, the destruction of the cities and the absence of further development of the culture, indicate that some catastophic event, or series of events, impacted the people of Canaan significantly. The time period in which General Joshua allegedly conquered the land of Canaan corresponds with a period of general upheaval in the ancient world from the destruction of Troy by the Achaeans to the fall of the Hittite Empire, the ruin of the great city of Ugarit and the beginning of the harrassment of coastal towns by the mysterious Sea Peoples. Whatever the cause, by 1100 BCE Canaan was no more than a narrow territory north of the Kingdom of Israel located by the sea in present day Lebanon."
http://www.ancient.eu/canaan/
I think it's fair to say that today most of the Arab world and even a lot of Palestinians (last I checked, a slight majority) support the pre-67 borders or something similar.
Egypt accepted a lower bar still of just getting back Sinai, while Jordan accepted Israel for even less (relinquishing the West Bank)
Some kind of catastrophic events, anyway. Hard to really implicate any particular group of genocide from the evidence alone.
Thanks for the link though, very informative.
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Yet more spin from you, cabri.
How often must it repeated and law cited that the illegal expropriation and colonisation of land beyond the territorial jurisdiction of the Israel borders is most that of provocative AGGRESSION?
The vast majority of Arab states already have recognised the state of Israel, right down to the Palestinian Authority under Fatah and even the party of Hamas. The semantics now are the State of Israel demanding the supremacist recognition as a JEWISH state.
The world complains against Israeli crimes of aggression and expansion. Those crimes do provoke some reprehensible responses by native insurgencies.
Keep up with the Hasbara spin, cabri. Keep it up, and I may again quote a current Hasbara propaganda handbook that your misdirecting and obfuscating spin directly falls in line of.
Whisky are you being obtuse?
The Palestinians are demanding that they get to flood Israel with Palestinians rather than going into their own country. By doing this not only would they get their own country but they would be able to eradicate Israel politically. That's absurd.
The Palestinians are demanding that they get to flood Israel with Palestinians rather than going into their own country. By doing this not only would they get their own country but they would be able to eradicate Israel politically. That's absurd.
WelshBloke
Lifer
- Jan 12, 2005
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Yeah, it's common sense not to pick a cause that you're sympathetic to and then point out the parallels between it and the worst terrorist organisation that you can think of.
"Look! We're not as bad as ISIS! :thumbup:"
KMFJD
Lifer
- Aug 11, 2005
- 33,211
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Their doing a pretty shitty job of it considering Gaza's population has more than tripled since Israel took over.
Hamas has not recognized Israel to exist and have continually demonstrated that they want to attack/destroy Israel. Fatah speaks from both sides of their mouth.
Hezbollah/Lebanon wants to destroy Israel and continues to try.
Syria is still at war.
If you wish to consider the Palestinians a country; then 3 of 5 neighboring countries are still in active conflict with Israel.
Then you can include most of the other Gulf as well as Muslim countries.
Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia are the only ones that readily accept Israel.
Iraq is questionable.
Yet the world says nothing about what Hamas does. firing rockets into civilian areas...
the explanation that they buy from Hamas is
1) Low technology - no way to guide the rockets
2) All of Israel is a fair target, because they are on Palestinian land
3) It was not an "authorized" shoot
4) Israel can defend against the rockets, it has no bearing.
5) No injuries - can not be considered as an war crime against civilians
Supplies were intended for civilians in Gaza to rebuild - now it is shown that instead of helping the locals; Hamas used it for military purposes.
Using civilian locations to hide explosive/weapons caches.
The Palestinians get a pass from the world for their actions; even if those actions are within the "recognized" boundaries.
peonyu
Platinum Member
- Mar 12, 2003
- 2,038
- 23
- 81
I define it as Muslims storming a Synagogue and hacking to death 4 Rabbis and attempting to hack to death Jewish babies while they had the chance. I also define genocide in the region as Muslims who behead Christians for simply wanting to follow their own faith and not that of Moon-God Allah, which is happening all the time in Syria and Iraq right now.
If you want to define Oppression aswell ill toss in a few nuggets for that to. Oppression is not allowing women to drive [Saudi Arabia] since it offends Islam according to Saudi clerics. Oppression is forcing non-Muslims to pay a special tax for refusing to ditch their religion and become Muslim [Syria and Iraq again]. Oppression is not being allowed to build new Churches unless the President himself personally approves of each and every new Church to be built - While Mosques can be built anytime and anywhere with NO approval being needed [Egypt]. Oppression is being not allowed to step foot into two cities at all unless you are a Muslim [Mecca and Medina]. The list goes on and on..
Islamic tolerance above ^^^^
What do all of the above have in common ??
If you want to define Oppression aswell ill toss in a few nuggets for that to. Oppression is not allowing women to drive [Saudi Arabia] since it offends Islam according to Saudi clerics. Oppression is forcing non-Muslims to pay a special tax for refusing to ditch their religion and become Muslim [Syria and Iraq again]. Oppression is not being allowed to build new Churches unless the President himself personally approves of each and every new Church to be built - While Mosques can be built anytime and anywhere with NO approval being needed [Egypt]. Oppression is being not allowed to step foot into two cities at all unless you are a Muslim [Mecca and Medina]. The list goes on and on..
Islamic tolerance above ^^^^
What do all of the above have in common ??
moonbogg
Lifer
- Jan 8, 2011
- 10,731
- 3,440
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I define it as Muslims storming a Synagogue and hacking to death 4 Rabbis and attempting to hack to death Jewish babies while they had the chance. I also define genocide in the region as Muslims who behead Christians for simply wanting to follow their own faith and not that of Moon-God Allah, which is happening all the time in Syria and Iraq right now.
If you want to define Oppression aswell ill toss in a few nuggets for that to. Oppression is not allowing women to drive [Saudi Arabia] since it offends Islam according to Saudi clerics. Oppression is forcing non-Muslims to pay a special tax for refusing to ditch their religion and become Muslim [Syria and Iraq again]. Oppression is not being allowed to build new Churches unless the President himself personally approves of each and every new Church to be built - While Mosques can be built anytime and anywhere with NO approval being needed [Egypt]. Oppression is being not allowed to step foot into two cities at all unless you are a Muslim [Mecca and Medina]. The list goes on and on..
Islamic tolerance above ^^^^
What do all of the above have in common ??
That freeway sign is fucking terrifying. Imagine driving there and debating in your head, "Do I act muslim and go left? What if they know I'm lying? What happens if I go right? Do I get taxed? Will I go to jail if they are in a bad mood?"
Anyone irrational enough to post a freeway sign like that cannot be trusted in any capacity.
peonyu
Platinum Member
- Mar 12, 2003
- 2,038
- 23
- 81
They have guard booths nearly every 1 mile for about 10 miles before you reach the "Holy" area of Mecca. If you look Saudi they will most likely nod and let you through without a single ounce of a problem, but if you seem "off" then you must produce your passport [by "off" you are white/asian/black etc or just seem nervous]. In Saudi Arabia, you have to have a stated religion so if you were born to Christian parents then you must select Christian as your religion, even if you are a Atheist now. If you are caught you get deported ASAP, thats how I understand it. If you claim to be a Muslim convert then you need to show a notarized letter from your Mosque and then jump through more hoops, such as reciting the Shahada and knowing several different Sura or Hadiths to get in...Its pretty messed up, but if is THEIR country though so when in Rome do as the Romans do...But Saudi Arabia is the holy land of Islam and they set the standard to a degree for Islam, and the standard is as low as you can get.
Ive debated hardcore Muslims before on how hypocritical it is to deny Non-Muslims entry into their two holy cities, while the Vatican City [and Rome itself] is open for all man kind to step foot into and learn and see about Catholocism. The usual reaction is they are set aside as "safe lands" for Muslims and that they are "clean" cities. So there you go, Non-Muslims are filthy pigs and we would defile their holy cities. So much for tolerance and equality for all man-kind in Islam.
WelshBloke
Lifer
- Jan 12, 2005
- 33,239
- 11,388
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peonyu
Platinum Member
- Mar 12, 2003
- 2,038
- 23
- 81
Considering the security situation over there and how Muslims love to use Suicide bombers in vehicles filled with TNT to kill people [well to kill JEWISH people to be precise]. Im inclined to believe that is for the safety of Jewish people who are targeted for murder so often for simply being Jewish. The Christian community [and other non-Muslim communities] are not monitored since they are not out there crawling into Jewish families homes and stabbing to death Jewish babies, like some Muslims have done in the past. OH and that thing with suicide bombing...
Also the above is just one road, and im sure it was temporary and its probably open to all people now. Mecca [population 2 Million] and Medina [population 1.2 Million] are closed to ALL Non-Muslims and have been since the time of Muhammad almost 1400 years ago...If you want to talk about bigots then lets talk about Muhammad and the shit-stain known as Islam that he left for humanity.
The origins for the ban on Non-Muslims in those cities begins with the quote below which came from Muhammad [ie: Mr.Bigot himself]:
“Let not two religions be left in the Arabian peninsula.” (page 689 – T. 1834)
And these charming quotes are also from Muhammad, he loves Christians and Jews as much as modern Muslims do it seems...:
“‘A’isha and Abdullah reported: As the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) was about to breathe his last, he drew his sheet upon his face and when he felt uneasy, he uncovered his face and said in that very state: Let there be curse upon the Jews and the Christians that they have taken the graves of their apostles as places of worship. He in fact warned (his men) against what they (the Jews and the Christians) did.” — Sahih Muslim 1082
“Narrated ‘Aisha: Allah’s Apostle in his fatal illness said, ‘Allah cursed the Jews and the Christians, for they built the places of worship at the graves of their prophets.’ And if that had not been the case, then the Prophet’s grave would have been made prominent before the people. So (the Prophet ) was afraid, or the people were afraid that his grave might be taken as a place for worship.” — Sahih Bukhari 2.23.472
"O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as friends. They are (in fact) friends of one another. And whoever is a friend to them among you -- then indeed, he is (one) of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people." Quran 5:51
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