Define Genocide as it relates to Gaza....

[Karl Agathon]

if Israel is committing genocide, I sure as hell would like to know what word should be used to describe what ISIS has/is doing. Super duper genocide?

 

[WelshBloke]

you like to think your appointed the spokeperson for OP`s world wide?

Ummm, you're the OP. Getting your log in accounts mixed up?

if Israel is committing genocide, I sure as hell would like to know what word should be used to describe what ISIS has/is doing. Super duper genocide?

Genocide worse than the Israelis but not as bad as the nazis? I admit that it's not catchy but I'm just going down the road that the OP started.

 

[fskimospy]

if Israel is committing genocide, I sure as hell would like to know what word should be used to describe what ISIS has/is doing. Super duper genocide?

We call many different types of killing murder, despite varying severities of the actual act. We haven't had to come up with a term of 'super duper murder' yet, so why would we have to do that in this case?

It meets the definition by quite a few standards. It's a terrible thing. I would suggest instead of quibbling over the definition the discussion needs to be about how to keep them from continuing it.

 

[fskimospy]

Find another word for what they are doing, because its not genocide. Its not even a kindler, gentler genocide. Its just plain not genocide. Genocide is where you kill as many of them as you can, or a very large number. Genocide is when you kill them because you want them GONE, as in you want to kill them ALL. People use the word genocide to describe Israel as a slap in their face because of what Hitler did to them. Its meant to be an insult and make Israel look as bad as the worst guy in recent memory, their mass killer Hitler. People who don't see this are idiots and obviously have an odd inability to google the word "genocide".

"Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or a significant part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group"

Israel does a lot of mean and unjust shit, but fucking genocide is not one of those things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions

 

[blankslate]

.....

 

[brandonb]

The lesson we've learned is there is a double standard in what we call genocide.

When Jews are the victim. It's genocide and anti Semitism.
When Jews are the perpetrators. It's because of genocide (against the Jews) and anti-Semitism.

Doesn't it remind you of this:

When African Americans are the victim. It's racism.
When African Americans are the perpetrators. It's because of racism (white man keeping them down) and profiling.

What I see is just basic denial.

 

[thraashman]

Just because someone acts worse than you doesn't make something bad you do not bad all of a sudden. Israel systematically killing hundreds or even thousands of Palestinians doesn't go away just because ISIS or Assad are even worse. We didn't give Jeffrey Dahmer a pass because Ted Bundy killed more people.

 

[cabri]

Just because someone acts worse than you doesn't make something bad you do not bad all of a sudden. Israel systematically killing hundreds or even thousands of Palestinians doesn't go away just because ISIS or Assad are even worse. We didn't give Jeffrey Dahmer a pass because Ted Bundy killed more people.

And you buy into the idea that this is pre-planned.

How many Palestinians were killed in the last round, 2K?

How many would have been killed if Hamas had agreed to the cease fire when original proposed; Gaza obtained nothing different except more lives lost.

And remember, it was Hamas implementation that caused the issue in the first place.

But it is Israel's fault accordign to you

Just like the celebration of the recent killings of 4 tourists.

Many of the Palestinians do not want peace and stability; just conflict so people will feel sorry for them and they do not have to be responsible.

 

[Abwx]

How many would have been killed if Hamas had agreed to the cease fire when original proposed; Gaza obtained nothing different except more lives lost.

Typical zionist spin that consist to exonerate themselves from the crimes they committed by putting the responsabilities on the victims and murdered, one must be really a fanatic if he s stating that the hand that killed was directed by the hand s victim, that si, that the palestinians did push the buttons on the air bombers and the tanks that bombed thems...

- Give me you land you palestinian!!
- NO!!
-Ok, i ll kill 2000 of yours as a mean of pressure and it will be your fault...

 

[Whiskey16]

...I now some members here are challenged with a post containing of multiple sentences...even __THE HORROR__of paragraph!...So, for you you 148 character, short attention span lot, you can skip the rest and just read the following line:

So, for a loaded and sound-bite driven brief:

Israelis aren't full on Nazis, just evil-incarnate of their former, the overthrown Africaner South African regime.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Now, for the meat:

It is quite telling that the troll, JEDIYoda, has failed to present the definition of genocide nor even present citations against his accused BBC and others for framing genocide in Gaza.

Trolls obfuscate and bluster.

This moron even has the lying nerve to repeatedly accuse me of desiring genocide against fellow Jews in Israel, simply for the fact that I correctly recognise the aggressive and decades standing of crimes perpetrated by Israel for ethnic cleansing, territorial confiscation, forced removal of entitled local populations, and through to that of the high crime of Apartheid. Because I desire an end to such crimes by Israel and find justice in Palestinians attaining their own sovereign state, the troll, JEDIYoda, lies and twists this into being a denial against Israel 'defence' and thereby a wish for its genocidal destruction.....D:

That said, let's honestly examine genocide:

Genocide is where you kill as many of them as you can, or a very large number. Genocide is when you kill them because you want them GONE, as in you want to kill them ALL.

Nope, from the inception of the legal definition, it has not required only the absolute destruction nor death of a targeted group:

THE CRIME OF GENOCIDE

On December 9, 1948, in the shadow of the Holocaust and in no small part due to the tireless efforts of Lemkin himself, the United Nations approved the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. This convention establishes "genocide” as an international crime, which signatory nations “undertake to prevent and punish.” It defines genocide as:

[G]enocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

While many cases of group-targeted violence have occurred throughout history and even since the Convention came into effect, the legal and international development of the term is concentrated into two distinct historical periods: the time from the coining of the term until its acceptance as international law (1944-1948) and the time of its activation with the establishment of international criminal tribunals to prosecute the crime of genocide (1991-1998). Preventing genocide, the other major obligation of the convention, remains a challenge that nations and individuals continue to face.

It is a crime to plan or incite genocide, even before killing starts, and to aid or abet genocide: Criminal acts include conspiracy, direct and public incitement, attempts to commit genocide, and complicity in genocide.
..

Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

The decades standing ghettoization of the Palestinian population in Gaza, can possibly meet parallelism with the past enforced ghettoization of Jews in Europe, but as the Gaza population is meant to remain, though controlled, confined, and under a harshly imposed Israeli siege embargo, a case for genocide is unlikely to be found.

Now on the West Bank, where populations and the economy of Palestinians are systematically being uprooted and replaced with Israelis (the majority being new Jewish immigrants who are sent to settle outside of a densely populated state of Israel and into illegally acquired territory) via a modern pogrom of lebensraum, ironically, rather than Germanise lands beyond its border, Israel is applying its military to Zionise extra-territorial lands and displace its undesirable residents. "We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country." Distasteful echoes of the past ring true today.

Suddenly we are short of space here in Israel, which has become full to capacity and needs lebensraum. Every cultured person knows that this is a despicable German concept, banned from use because of the associations it brings up. Still, people are starting to use it, if not outright then with a clear implication: We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country.

When we embarked on the Six-Day War did we want to remove a threat or did we want to gain control in order to spread out? That's what happens after 44 years of mire and moral corruption,

which distort things and make us forget the original objective and replace it with an entirely different one. We were fortunate when we occupied the West Bank because had we not done so, where would we have come to live? And who knows how high housing prices would have risen? The divine promise is now being revealed in all its ability to prophesy about real estate.

The founding fathers, as opposed to the Diadochi who fought for control after Alexander the Great's death, represented a different approach, for the most part. Between "A little goes a long way," and "Don't bite off more than you can chew," they chose to bite; they even agreed to the 1947 UN partition plan for lack of choice. They believed that all the objectives of rational Ben Gurion-style Zionism could be fulfilled even in "Lesser Israel," which is more complete and more at peace with itself. And it has no need for lebensraum, may God preserve us.

This systematic, bigoted, and supremacist effort to ethically cleanse a chosen territory of the undesirable native population in favour of a chosen religious/ethnic group can possibly fall under a subset of the legal term of genocide, for in part, to bring about the destruction of a group. Though this is achieved rather slowly over time and therefore more difficult to hold to the judicially rigid terms of genocide.

Personally, I wouldn't bring the charges against Israel for such an extreme as that of genocide.

Beyond the more applicable charges against the State of Israel for crime of aggression and illegal territorial expansion, rather Genocide, the crime of Apartheid is easier to solidify:

International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, G.A. res. 3068 (XXVIII)), 28 U.N. GAOR Supp. (No. 30) at 75, U.N. Doc. A/9030 (1974), 1015 U.N.T.S. 243, entered into force July 18, 1976.


Considering the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples, in which the General Assembly stated that the process of liberation is irresistible and irreversible and that, in the interests of human dignity, progress and justice, an end must be put to colonialism and all practices of segregation and discrimination associated therewith,

Observing that, in the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, certain acts which may also be qualified as acts of apartheid constitute a crime under international law,

Observing that, in the Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutory Limitations to War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity, "inhuman acts resulting from the policy of apartheid" are qualified as crimes against humanity, Observing that the General Assembly of the United Nations has adopted a number of resolutions in which the policies and practices of apartheid are condemned as a crime against humanity,

...

Article II
For the purpose of the present Convention, the term "the crime of
apartheid", which shall include similar policies and practices of racial segregation and discrimination as practised in southern Africa, shall apply to the following inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them:

(a) Denial to a member or members of a racial group or groups of the right to life and liberty of person:

..

(iii) By arbitrary arrest and illegal imprisonment of the members of a racial group or groups;

(b) Deliberate imposition on a racial group or groups of living conditions calculated to cause its or their physical destruction in whole or in part;

(c) Any legislative measures and other measures calculated to prevent a racial group or groups from participation in the political, social, economic and cultural life of the country and the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of such a group or groups, in particular by denying to members of a racial group or groups basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to work, the right to form recognized trade unions, the right to education, the right to leave and to return to their country, the right to a nationality, the right to freedom of movement and residence, the right to freedom of opinion and expression, and the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association;

...

d) Any measures including legislative measures, designed to divide the population along racial lines by the creation of separate reserves and ghettos for the members of a racial group or groups, the prohibition of mixed marriages among members of various racial groups, the expropriation of landed property belonging to a racial group or groups or to members thereof;

..

(f) Persecution of organizations and persons, by depriving them of fundamental rights and freedoms, because they oppose apartheid.

As other have pointed out, congrats go to the trolling OP, JEDIYoda, for condemning Israel to not being quite as bad a ISIS or the Assad regime. What low standards to keep up your Hasbara jollies.

 

[inachu]

Since 1947 over 500,000 Palestinians have been killed.

 

[inachu]

The truth as it stands now.

 

[moonbogg]

TL;DR

So, lets assume they are guilty of genocide. Now what?

 

[Whiskey16]

But it is Israel's fault accordign to you

Just like the celebration of the recent killings of 4 tourists.

Many of the Palestinians do not want peace and stability; just conflict so people will feel sorry for them and they do not have to be responsible.

A common Hasbara spin.

Hamas, as it came about in the 1980s and likely with Israel support to divide Palestinians Fatah politics, is a symptom of Israeli aggression and crimes in territory beyond that of the sovereign borders of the State of Israel, and directly perpetrated against Palestinians for the illegal expansion of a Greater Israel.

cabri, throughout history, it is an expectation that a stressed and oppressed population will rebel against the oppressors and occupiers.

It is unfortunate that some reaction will be that of morally indefensible violent crime and even that of terrorism, of which the founders of the state of Israel certainly did not shy away from in their reigns of terror against Palestinians and the colonial British rule.

cabri, in terms of justice and morality, aren't you a hypocrite to condemn terrorism of Hamas while applaud Israel?

For high crimes, I have the integrity to condemn any number of sides.

 

[Whiskey16]

The lack of reading comprehension for the fail...........:

So, lets assume they are guilty of genocide. Now what?

:thumbsdown: moonbogg, the cliff-notes I provided at the top of that post were also for you...as you previously complained of by 'walls of text..'

For the crimes of Apartheid and the increasing rate of aggressive territorial expansion, Israel is increasingly on the losing public relations end.

Sanctions, starting by some EU countries are quite likely to be imposed. Rather quickly, despite US and Israeli support, the South African regime lost its international standing.

Next, the Palestinian Authority, as a now recognised state, will very soon sign onto the Rome Statute and become a party to the International Criminal Court. For international criminal proceedings, it may then bypass any UN Security Council desires (such as a US veto) and directly appeal for an investigation for crimes (such as the aforementioned Apartheid) upon Palestinians jurisdiction by external Israeli actors.

Rather than Iranian nukes, etc, which are all a redirecting, sideshow bluster, this increasingly accepted moral and criminal critique is the greatest strategic fear by Israel. In a great part due to the aggravating and bellicose rule by the Netanyahu government, the is world turning against and isolating Israel.

 

[moonbogg]

The lack of reading comprehension for the fail............:thumbsdown:

More like lack of reading. :thumbsup:

Also,



With your massive wall of highlighted text, you did two things.

A) Put the size of the waves from Interstellar to shame
B) Disappointed me when there was no free i-pad offer hidden in there

 

[inachu]

It is Apartheid. That latest video of the ADL in Israel say they must do what they do or jews as a european ethnicity will die off and they do not want that.

What if all jews 500 years from now look Chinese. Would that disturb all these modern rabbis? What if all the Kaifung residents in China move to Israel. Would that offend the russian jews living there? You know it would!

So in this case those jews are saying the 12 tribes are a myth. Fact is.... it is not a myth at all.

 

[moonbogg]

The lack of reading comprehension for the fail...........::thumbsdown: moonbogg, the cliff-notes I provided at the top of that post were also for you...as you previously complained of by 'walls of text..'

For the crimes of Apartheid and the increasing rate of aggressive territorial expansion, Israel is increasingly on the losing public relations end.

Sanctions, starting by some EU countries are quite likely to be imposed. Rather quickly, despite US and Israeli support, the South African regime lost its international standing.

Next, the Palestinian Authority, as a now recognised state, will very soon sign onto the Rome Statute and become a party to the International Criminal Court. For international criminal proceedings, it may then bypass any UN Security Council desires (such as a US veto) and directly appeal for an investigation for crimes (such as the aforementioned Apartheid) upon Palestinians jurisdiction by external Israeli actors.

Rather than Iranian nukes, etc, which are all a redirecting, sideshow bluster, this increasingly accepted moral and criminal critique is the greatest strategic fear by Israel. In a great part due to the aggravating and bellicose rule by the Netanyahu government, the is world turning against and isolating Israel.

Sounds good, but as long as the US is their best buddy, nothing will happen. Do you really think anything will happen to Israel, regardless of what they do? I doubt it. There is no escaping that. They are immune.
Also, I hope I didn't offend you with the cat. I just like throwing him at people for some reason.

 

[lozina]

Just look at the way Israel responds to crimes done by Palestinians.

Today the news is widely covering the brutal murder of 4 rabbis in Israel by 2 Palestinian madmen. The madmen who perpetuated the attack are dead, so story is over right?

Well, not quite. Israel responds with collective punishment, a war crime as per the Fourth Geneva Convention.

They plan to demolish the homes of the family who these two madmen belonged to and they already detained every one of their relatives.

And I am sure that is only the beginning. There seems to be some secret ratio in the IDF guidebook where for every death on Israel must be responding with a minimum of x deaths on Palestine.

Expect to see some sort of military response to slaughter irrelevant Palestinians who they will just claim have some obscure ties to these two butchers, plus collateral damage to innocent people around them. No due process or anything, of course.

Can you imagine if the civilized Western nations were to respond to criminals by demolishing their family's homes, imprisoning all of their relatives and sending missiles to the neighborhoods they grew up in?

 

[Whiskey16]

Sounds good, but as long as the US is their best buddy, nothing will happen. Do you really think anything will happen to Israel, regardless of what they do? I doubt it. There is no escaping that. They are immune.

In terms of the International Criminal Court, if a signing member brings forth cause for an investigation and charges, there's not a thing the USA can do.

Beyond that, certainly as long as Netanyahu remains in power, he's certainly done more than any previous Israeli PM to insult and aggravate the USA, therefore I doubt the US retains much will to even pressure EU states against legislating sanctions against Israel.

Israeli is losing the PR war. The expansionist forces in Israel are losing time and the remnants of goodwill, and they know it. This why the increasing escalation of land thievery and ethnic cleaning against Palestinians in the West Bank. The thoughts being, that under armed Israeli control and colonised by Israelis, the land will forever be Israel's. The countdown is on, therefore the provocative Israeli expansionist crimes increase, provoking desperate and more violent responses by Palestinians who forcefully face increasing despair.

It's a circle that Israeli strategists feel to benefit them. Steal land. Provoke Palestinians. Face terrorism. Collective retaliatory punishment. Cry out for the 'right to defence.' Steal yet more land in a guise of state security. Repeat......

Israel holds the cards and power. That power is limited by international goodwill and eventually the courts. At a certain point as being an international pariah, likely a majority of a moral Israeli population will turn against its vilified government, thereby finally bringing a cessation of Israeli extra-territorial crimes in the West Bank and Gaza. Yet by such a stage, the Greater Zionists who are leading the expansionist charge will have hoped to have already attained much of the territory and a broken Palestine (yet vengeful) as they had hoped.

There is no great end for this. Yet the sooner the international vilification of Israel is achieved, the better for the security of both Israelis and Palestinians.

I'll repeat:

Suddenly we are short of space here in Israel, which has become full to capacity and needs lebensraum. Every cultured person knows that this is a despicable German concept, banned from use because of the associations it brings up. Still, people are starting to use it, if not outright then with a clear implication: We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country.

When we embarked on the Six-Day War did we want to remove a threat or did we want to gain control in order to spread out? That's what happens after 44 years of mire and moral corruption,

which distort things and make us forget the original objective and replace it with an entirely different one. We were fortunate when we occupied the West Bank because had we not done so, where would we have come to live? And who knows how high housing prices would have risen? The divine promise is now being revealed in all its ability to prophesy about real estate.

The founding fathers, as opposed to the Diadochi who fought for control after Alexander the Great's death, represented a different approach, for the most part. Between "A little goes a long way," and "Don't bite off more than you can chew," they chose to bite; they even agreed to the 1947 UN partition plan for lack of choice. They believed that all the objectives of rational Ben Gurion-style Zionism could be fulfilled even in "Lesser Israel," which is more complete and more at peace with itself. And it has no need for lebensraum, may God preserve us.

The aggressive expansionists in Israel, those who choose the vile path of supremacist lebensraum, are its greatest threat. To the moral and security expense of Israel and Israelis, they have likely already bitten off more than they can chew.

 

[shortylickens]

In Rifts Phase World its deliberately causing the deaths of 1 percent of a sentient species.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Expect to see some sort of military response to slaughter irrelevant Palestinians who they will just claim have some obscure ties to these two butchers, plus collateral damage to innocent people around them. No due process or anything, of course.

Can you imagine if the civilized Western nations were to respond to criminals by demolishing their family's homes, imprisoning all of their relatives and sending missiles to the neighborhoods they grew up in?

you are looney tunes....Israel does not punish the relatives.....where did you get that from?

Yes I can imagine -- the crime rate would go through the floor......down to zero....

 

[JEDIYoda]

Quote:
Originally Posted by moonbogg
Sounds good, but as long as the US is their best buddy, nothing will happen. Do you really think anything will happen to Israel, regardless of what they do? I doubt it. There is no escaping that. They are immune.

In terms of the International Criminal Court, if a signing member brings forth cause for an investigation and charges, there's not a thing the USA can do.

Beyond that, certainly as long as Netanyahu remains in power, he's certainly done more than any previous Israeli PM to insult and aggravate the USA, therefore I doubt the US retains much will to even pressure EU states against legislating sanctions against Israel.

Israeli is losing the PR war. The expansionist forces in Israel are losing time and the remnants of goodwill, and they know it. This why the increasing escalation of land thievery and ethnic cleaning against Palestinians in the West Bank. The thoughts being, that under armed Israeli control and colonised by Israelis, the land will forever be Israel's. The countdown is on, therefore the provocative Israeli expansionist crimes increase, provoking desperate and more violent responses by Palestinians who forcefully face increasing despair.

It's a circle that Israeli strategists feel to benefit them. Steal land. Provoke Palestinians. Face terrorism. Collective retaliatory punishment. Cry out for the 'right to defence.' Steal yet more land in a guise of state security. Repeat......

Israel holds the cards and power. That power is limited by international goodwill and eventually the courts. At a certain point as being an international pariah, likely a majority of a moral Israeli population will turn against its vilified government, thereby finally bringing a cessation of Israeli extra-territorial crimes in the West Bank and Gaza. Yet by such a stage, the Greater Zionists who are leading the expansionist charge will have hoped to have already attained much of the territory and a broken Palestine (yet vengeful) as they had hoped.

There is no great end for this. Yet the sooner the international vilification of Israel is achieved, the better for the security of both Israelis and Palestinians.

I'll repeat:


Quote:
Suddenly we are short of space here in Israel, which has become full to capacity and needs lebensraum. Every cultured person knows that this is a despicable German concept, banned from use because of the associations it brings up. Still, people are starting to use it, if not outright then with a clear implication: We are short of land, we are short of air, let us breathe in this country.

When we embarked on the Six-Day War did we want to remove a threat or did we want to gain control in order to spread out? That's what happens after 44 years of mire and moral corruption,

Quote:
which distort things and make us forget the original objective and replace it with an entirely different one. We were fortunate when we occupied the West Bank because had we not done so, where would we have come to live? And who knows how high housing prices would have risen? The divine promise is now being revealed in all its ability to prophesy about real estate.

The founding fathers, as opposed to the Diadochi who fought for control after Alexander the Great's death, represented a different approach, for the most part. Between "A little goes a long way," and "Don't bite off more than you can chew," they chose to bite; they even agreed to the 1947 UN partition plan for lack of choice. They believed that all the objectives of rational Ben Gurion-style Zionism could be fulfilled even in "Lesser Israel," which is more complete and more at peace with itself. And it has no need for lebensraum, may God preserve us.

The aggressive expansionists in Israel, those who choose the vile path of supremacist lebensraum, are its greatest threat. To the moral and security expense of Israel and Israelis, they have likely already bitten off more than they can chew.

I will keep this short -- The ICC has no power to do a damn thing!! So sorry!!

 

[lozina]

you are looney tunes....Israel does not punish the relatives.....where did you get that from?

Yes I can imagine -- the crime rate would go through the floor......down to zero....

they are demolishing their homes, you think they lived by themselves? (In that part of the world it was probably home to live 5 families)

plus:

http://jewishbusinessnews.com/2014/...nians-celebrate-jerusalem-synagogue-massacre/

 

[fskimospy]

you are looney tunes....Israel does not punish the relatives.....where did you get that from?

Yes I can imagine -- the crime rate would go through the floor......down to zero....

They most certainly punish the relatives. How can you not know this?