Define "Fair Wage"

Stunt

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Jul 17, 2002
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What is fair wage?

How are wages determined now?

How should wages be determined?

Are there professions which are over/under paid?


I will give my take in due time.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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Any wage agreed to by an employer and employee absent coercion or misrepresentation is a fair wage. Anyone who says otherwise is simply trying to impose their judgement over that of the two parties actually involved.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
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I think two blow pops a day for kids working in a coal mine is fair.
 

Stunt

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Originally posted by: glenn1
Any wage agreed to by an employer and employee absent coercion or misrepresentation is a fair wage. Anyone who says otherwise is simply trying to impose their judgement over that of the two parties actually involved.
So every profession and job is fair wage in today's marketplace?
 

catnap1972

Platinum Member
Aug 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: Todd33
I think two blow pops a day for kids working in a coal mine is fair.

Socialist!

ONE blow pop a week is MORE than adequate and even that's a stretch.

Poor CEOs are STARVING and you're giving the friggin store away :roll:
 

Dissipate

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Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: glenn1
Any wage agreed to by an employer and employee absent coercion or misrepresentation is a fair wage. Anyone who says otherwise is simply trying to impose their judgement over that of the two parties actually involved.

Does that include or exclude government employees?
 

LumbergTech

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Sep 15, 2005
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Originally posted by: glenn1
Any wage agreed to by an employer and employee absent coercion or misrepresentation is a fair wage. Anyone who says otherwise is simply trying to impose their judgement over that of the two parties actually involved.

you have too much faith in competition
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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In a best of all worlds, a "fair" wage would at least allow any adult working a full schedule to support him/herself and a modest family in something above poverty. It makes no sense for a person working full time to be driven into progressively deeper debt.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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So every profession and job is fair wage in today's marketplace?

In a legal, political, logical, and moral sense, then yes. In a cosmic sense I think most everyone would like to see their beliefs on what is "fair" hold sway (e.g. you think teachers should get paid what professional athletes get paid). But once you get past the immature envy this line of thinking entails, you'd quickly recognize that the power to arbitrarily set teachers' wages higher and athletes' lower, means I could just as easily arbitrarily determine you are only deserving of a wage of zero. Just because you childishly wish that life was "fair" doesn't mean that you somehow have the capacity or wisdom to make it fairer than it is.
 

mylok

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Nov 1, 2004
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Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: glenn1
Any wage agreed to by an employer and employee absent coercion or misrepresentation is a fair wage. Anyone who says otherwise is simply trying to impose their judgement over that of the two parties actually involved.
So every profession and job is fair wage in today's marketplace?


it would be except for one problem, our system is broken by the mass amount of un-documented workers (illegal aliens). yes i am a liberal that believes you have to be here legally to work. employers know they will take a lower wage and the workers are glad to take it (compared to what they would get in their home country). if this was fixed our system would work just fine.
 

Dissipate

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Jan 17, 2004
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Originally posted by: mylok
Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: glenn1
Any wage agreed to by an employer and employee absent coercion or misrepresentation is a fair wage. Anyone who says otherwise is simply trying to impose their judgement over that of the two parties actually involved.
So every profession and job is fair wage in today's marketplace?


it would be except for one problem, our system is broken by the mass amount of un-documented workers (illegal aliens). yes i am a liberal that believes you have to be here legally to work. employers know they will take a lower wage and the workers are glad to take it (compared to what they would get in their home country). if this was fixed our system would work just fine.

What does that have to do with the concept of a 'fair' wage?
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
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What is fair wage?

A wage that reflects the amount of time, energy (both mental and physical), and spirit spent doing the labor.

How are wages determined now?

I would guess by what those in charge of payroll have imperiously deigned adequate. (I don't really have much idea.) And what they believe would maintain that worker's lifestyle, from an uneducated point of view.

How should wages be determined?

By in depth study of your employee's lifestyle. If you want your employees clean, you pay them enough to keep hot water running in their homes.

Are there professions which are over/under paid?

I feel fast food workers are underpaid. However, most high school kids that work in these places don't need $9/hour, but some of the adults do. So some by need, some by value of time and labor. It's an odd subject to say the least, and I can kind of see both sides.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
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actually this thread belongs in...off topic...

This is niether news nor politics....

Everybody knows you cannot define the word fair..
whats fair to you might not be fair to somebody else..

off topic..
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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What does that have to do with the concept of a 'fair' wage?

Nothing whatsoever. In fact it simply illustrates the folly of those who use the term (and believe in the concept of) a "fair wage," it's defined strictly by what they think someone should get paid and relies on envy in lieu of logic. "Oh, it's not fair that someone at WalMart makes $7/hr when an NBA player makes $10MM/year." Ask them to explain under what rationale that the WalMart person should make more, it'll never be something like performance metrics, additional profitabilty, or any quantifiable means - the argument always boils down to an appeal to emotion.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
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Fair wage = where someone is willing to work for a certain price and someone is willing to hire at a certain price meets
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
actually this thread belongs in...off topic...

This is niether news nor politics....

Everybody knows you cannot define the word fair..
whats fair to you might not be fair to somebody else..

off topic..
We are not defining fair and wages are very much intertwined with political issues.

Unions, Outsourcing, Capitalism, Socialism, Taxation, Minimum Wage.

Go back to your hole.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: Stunt
What is fair wage?

Whatever someone is already paid

How are wages determined now?

By the market

How should wages be determined?

By the market

Are there professions which are over/under paid?

No.


I will give my take in due time.

 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: glenn1
Any wage agreed to by an employer and employee absent coercion or misrepresentation is a fair wage. Anyone who says otherwise is simply trying to impose their judgement over that of the two parties actually involved.

I noticed that you removed coercion from establishing a fair wage. How is it any different if an employer say work for 3 apples a day or get shoot then a starving person getting told take the job for 3 apples a day or die. Why is one wage fair and the other not when in both cases the threat of death is held over the workers head.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: Stunt
What is fair wage?

Whatever someone is already paid

How are wages determined now?

By the market

How should wages be determined?

By the market

Are there professions which are over/under paid?

No.


I will give my take in due time.
How bout when organizations restrict the free market in the cases of lawyers and doctors?

How bout strong unions making huge wages and legacy costs companies cannot pay for?

Still fair zendari?, you are giving simple answers to a complex issue.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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What is fair wage?

A wage that reflects the amount of time, energy (both mental and physical), and spirit spent doing the labor.

Spoken like someone who can't think beyond the small little box you've created as a mental construct. BTW, what you're describing is basically the Labor Theory of Value, which has been discredited for well over 100 years. There's more to value than wages or "the amount of time, energy (both mental and physical), and spirit spent doing the labor." There may be many non-wage considerations which represent fair greater value to a potential employee and employer.

To give you an example, let's say I was an art student who had the opportunity and desire to apprentice under a famous artist. I'd probably be willing to do that for far less than the legal minimum wage since I'd perceive the value to be exceptionally high regardless of the wage. That same artist might not perceive much value in having an apprentice without concern for what minimum wage was, but if the potential apprentice offered a low enough wage offer or a special skill (such as being an ideal model for the artist's next work) the artist might reconsider - sure, apprentices are a PITA, but I'll pay someone $1/hr to clean my dirty paintbrushes or act as the inspiration for my next work, whereas at minimum wage he might not bother. In this case both parties perceive the value independently of the wage involved - the artist for value of having a model, and the apprentice for the experience of working with the artist. With a "fair wage" in place though, that makes impossible the preceding mutually benefical employment arrangement.

 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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I noticed that you removed coercion from establishing a fair wage. How is it any different if an employer say work for 3 apples a day or get shoot then a starving person getting told take the job for 3 apples a day or die. Why is one wage fair and the other not when in both cases the threat of death is held over the workers head.

Not a good analogy since the nature of the human condition is that value is typically only created by some kind of human activity. Your starving man could be located in an apple orchard and still starve to death if he didn't engage in the labor to pick apples to eat. Apples don't pick themselves.

Even laying aside the above, your second example is not coercion because the starving person can choose to ask for work with a different employer paying four apples a day, or perhaps 2 apples for half a day. Alternatively, the man could grow his own apples and not work for someone else to earn them.

 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: zendari
Originally posted by: Stunt
What is fair wage?

Whatever someone is already paid

How are wages determined now?

By the market

How should wages be determined?

By the market

Are there professions which are over/under paid?

No.


I will give my take in due time.
How bout when organizations restrict the free market in the cases of lawyers and doctors?

How bout strong unions making huge wages and legacy costs companies cannot pay for?

Still fair zendari?, you are giving simple answers to a complex issue.


Lawyers, almost by definition, do their work taking advantage of government interventions in the free market, which is essentially what a law is. I am not sure what you are referring to with doctors.

Capital can organize to form a corporation. Labor is free to organize to form a union, and the company is free to decide whether to contract with them.

I am not so arrogant to believe I can override the free market's proven distribution of wealth and resources with my arbitrary figuring.
 

Stunt

Diamond Member
Jul 17, 2002
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Originally posted by: zendari
Lawyers, almost by definition, do their work taking advantage of government interventions in the free market, which is essentially what a law is. I am not sure what you are referring to with doctors.

Capital can organize to form a corporation. Labor is free to organize to form a union, and the company is free to decide whether to contract with them.

I am not so arrogant to believe I can override the free market's proven distribution of wealth and resources with my arbitrary figuring.
With regards to lawyers and doctors, they have limited enrollment with far more applicants than those accepted; even though the people are qualified for the position.

The free markets are not determining these wages as supplies are limited on purpose to keep wages high.

I find it odd you think everyone is receiving fair pay; what about Micheal Moore? :D
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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I find it odd you think everyone is receiving fair pay; what about Micheal Moore?

Somehow he figures out how to get butts in theater seats to pay for his movies, which is about as pure a representation of fair value as you can get. Which supports my original premise, that the value of labor is what you're willing to sell it for to a willing buyer.
This is true even if you don't like Michael Moore or whatever the labor "product" is and independent of how distasteful (or terrific) you think it is.
 

zendari

Banned
May 27, 2005
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Originally posted by: Stunt
Originally posted by: zendari
Lawyers, almost by definition, do their work taking advantage of government interventions in the free market, which is essentially what a law is. I am not sure what you are referring to with doctors.

Capital can organize to form a corporation. Labor is free to organize to form a union, and the company is free to decide whether to contract with them.

I am not so arrogant to believe I can override the free market's proven distribution of wealth and resources with my arbitrary figuring.
With regards to lawyers and doctors, they have limited enrollment with far more applicants than those accepted; even though the people are qualified for the position.

The free markets are not determining these wages as supplies are limited on purpose to keep wages high.

I find it odd you think everyone is receiving fair pay; what about Micheal Moore? :D

Michael Moore receives the fair market value for his products.

Education itself is part of the free market, the limited enrollment is a conscious position chosen by the schools themselves in order to provide the best products they can. The wages for lawyers and doctors are not merely determined by the limited supply, but also the high demand for their services.

I don't see how this differs from anything else. Anybody can sell oranges, but there is a limited demand for oranges in the country, so consumers are going to purchase the best/cheapest oranges.