Deciding on a new router is a time consuming process

[UsandThem]

There are so many different wireless routers out there with vastly different hardware, performance (claimed), and speed class. Then you also have the dual-band and tri-band routers to look into. I think I have read the reviews of every wireless router under $300 on the internet.

In the past, I would go read some reviews on wireless routers, and the review sites would generally recommend the same routers. Sure, one site might rank a unit as the "best", and on another site it might be ranked in 3rd place, but they were at least close in ranking. This is what I did when I bought my Netgear Nighthawk R7000 AC1900 router several years ago. And it was a pretty good router for all my needs at home for close to two years. Good coverage, stable, and fast. Now there aren't as many places that review routers, and one site will say a particular router is a horrible purchase, and one will say it is the "best". For example, Tom's Hardware loves the Linksys wrt1900acs and recommends it for both speed and range. However, if you go to the Smallnetbuilder website, they rank it as the 11th best AC1900 router, and actually rate it below its predecessor the wrt1900ac which has much lower hardware specs. Of course you can read user reviews at Amazon, Newegg, etc, but they are filled with the "I was supplied a sample for test and evaluation and I promised to provide a fair and honest review" feedback. I just don't trust them because they have incentive to write a 'fluff' piece so they keep getting more free stuff.

However, starting a few months ago, I began to notice slowdowns and other hiccups on my network. My teenagers were getting bumped from their online gaming on their Xbox One consoles, my smart phone on WI-FI would bog down, the video stream would freeze, and just other odd little issues.

We use a VOIP phone (Ooma), and we also signed up for the new Playstation Vue streaming tv service (CAT5 cable), and got rid of our cable TV service. We currently have Time Warner 200/20 internet service, so there should plenty of available bandwidth available.

What ended up being the problem was the Netgear R7000 was simply just be overloaded with connections. Besides the VOIP and Vue service, we have 3 desktop computers, 4 laptops, 4 tablets, 4 smart phones, and three gaming consoles. It just struggled to handle all the different clients. When I bought it, it had one of the fastest CPUs (1 Ghz) available and had a whopping 256 MB of ram, but now that is pretty much entry-level specs on many routers. It would actually 'scream' when it was being hammered with connections (actual coil whine coming from the router).

So in the end, I ended up buying the TP Link Archer c5400. I got it on sale from Amazon, and I was just tired of reading reviews and pulled the trigger. Out of the 49 reviews for it on Amazon, only 19 were actually 'verified purchases', and most of Newegg's were by their 'Eggxperts'. Despite it being much more powerful hardware wise, and having 8 antennas compared to the 3 antennas of the R7000, coverage is pretty much the same (which I expected from reading too many reviews). However, the unit has a main dual-core CPU, 3 co-processors, and 512 MB of ram, and so far it has worked perfectly for handling all the clients. I have never owned any TP Link products before, but I'm glad I gave it a chance. I figured if I hated it, Amazon has a good return policy. Although truthfully, if the Netgear R7800 x4s had been on sale at Amazon at the time I decided I was done reading reviews, I would have just gone with it. Most review sites seem to like it for coverage and performance. However, they didn't drop their price down to $199 to match Best Buy until after I my order shipped.

So to sum it up, the new high-end wireless routers won't necessarily give you better coverage, but they make a huge difference if you have a lot of clients vying for bandwidth and IP addresses.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Interesting, thanks.

My main router is still an Asus RT-N12/D1, which is pretty entry-level ($30 on sale, maybe less after rebate). I'm running Tomato on it. Sometimes it bogs down during heavy downloads, although it doesn't hiccup, when running my NAS Torrent server with Linux ISOs.

I don't know if anything I do is really latency-sensitive. (I don't do online gaming at this point.)

I stream internet radio, which generally runs pretty good. I also use wifi calling on my cell, but I ran into some latency issues there (probably due to CPU load) with the Asus router, so I have that connected via wifi to my VZ router (my primary internet-facing router).

I've held off buying a "fancy" router (an AC router higher than an AC1750), for two reasons. One is cost, as those seem to run $300+. The second, is firmware compatibility. I really like Tomato, it has a lot of options, and I've even been trying out the multi-WAN support in the newest versions. (It sort of works, not all that well yet.)

I've toyed with getting a refurb AC87U off of Newegg's ebay site. But again, no Tomato.

I should probably upgrade to an AC66U or R7000 Nighthawk, both of them are straightforward hardware designs, and I believe that both of them support Tomato.

I would like to try out some higher-end routers, but on the other hand, I only have 50/50 FIOS service (which is more like 60/60 on a good day). Which pretty-much any router can handle OK these days.

I'm single, so it's just me consuming bandwidth, but I have a multitude of PCs I use, upgrade (Windows Update), have a bunch of NAS, one running Torrents sometimes.

Edit: If I was better with Linux, I'd probably set up a mini-ITX rig as a router. PFsense, Astaro, what's the other one? Sophos UTM, there's a few more too.

Maybe I should bite the bullet and do that. I've basically switched from a big-ass full-tower ATX box running a NAS OS to some more consumer-oriented NAS boxes, so I'm somewhat more into convenience than strictly DIY these days.

Edit: I'm starting to sound like BonzaiDuck here, I think.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, your post got me thinking, and I went looking for newer (but not the newest, not "fancy" with like 8 antennas) AC routers, that would run Tomato.

I found some AC68U units, factory refurbs, from Newegg on ebay, for ~$120 shipped. I bit. Hopefully, mine doesn't have any problems. (I'm pretty sure I bought my Asus RT-N12/D1 brand new.)

I've used refurb routers before with good results, both Netgear, Cisco, and I don't remember if I've ever tried a refurb Asus.

Dual-core 800Mhz ARM CPU though, should be a lot faster for routing and processing than the Broadcom MIPS in my N12.

I'll also be able to pare down my network setup slightly. (Currently have a seperate AC1200 router acting as an AP.)

 

[UsandThem]

I don't know if anything I do is really latency-sensitive. (I don't do online gaming at this point.)

I stream internet radio, which generally runs pretty good. I also use wifi calling on my cell, but I ran into some latency issues there (probably due to CPU load) with the Asus router, so I have that connected via wifi to my VZ router (my primary internet-facing router).

I've held off buying a "fancy" router (an AC router higher than an AC1750), for two reasons. One is cost, as those seem to run $300+. The second, is firmware compatibility. I really like Tomato, it has a lot of options, and I've even been trying out the multi-WAN support in the newest versions. (It sort of works, not all that well yet.)

I've toyed with getting a refurb AC87U off of Newegg's ebay site. But again, no Tomato.

I should probably upgrade to an AC66U or R7000 Nighthawk, both of them are straightforward hardware designs, and I believe that both of them support Tomato.

Yeah, if were just me and my wife, the R7000 would have lasted a lot longer. My teenagers are the one who are killing my network. For example, when they play a game on their Xbox, they have capture cards and they are sending it to their computers at the same time to upload to their team "project", and watching Youtube videos they have uploaded. They literally are using their smart phones, computers, and console all at the same time.

I don't understand it, but I'm not a spring chicken anymore. When I used to play a PC game or console game, that's all I did. I didn't feel the need to multitask. I just enjoyed relaxing and playing a game.

I ended up getting the Archer C5400 for just a tad over $200. The other three routers that seemed to have the most favorable reviews across the various websites were the: Linksys WRT1900ACS (it was $159 at one point), the R7800 x4s (currently $199), and the Asus RT-AC88U ($275). I figured the tri-band one would also handle all the traffic better before they head off to life in four or so years.

I was just was too cheap to go with the Asus router. It looked nice, and it had good reviews, but it was hard enough for me to even pull the trigger on a $200 router. I guess routers are where the crazy profit margins are now in computers, as some of the newer routers are $350+.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I guess routers are where the crazy profit margins are now in computers, as some of the newer routers are $350+.

I know. I think maybe the original WRT54G wasn't nearly that expensive when it debuted. (I don't remember, but I think it was under $130.)

But someone pointed out to me that routers, and demands on them, and thus their respective hardware sets, are vastly outpacing moore's law. Thus the continual increase in prices.

 

[UsandThem]

I know. I think maybe the original WRT54G wasn't nearly that expensive when it debuted. (I don't remember, but I think it was under $130.)

But someone pointed out to me that routers, and demands on them, and thus their respective hardware sets, are vastly outpacing moore's law. Thus the continual increase in prices.

True. But at least there is competition in the networking space, so there are pretty regular sales/promotions, and incentive for the companies to improve their products at a quick pace.

We have seen what lack of competition has done in the desktop CPU and video card market over the years.....new Intel CPUs increase in performance roughly 10% over the previous generation, and Nvidia can sell Titan Xs for $1200.

 

[John Connor]

1) This one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833320091

2) Flash with DD-WRT http://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=171783&highlight=


3) Call it a day.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Thanks for your contribution, JC, but I've already purchased the refurb AC68U/R from Newegg, for around $120. I know that the N66U is also supported by Tomato, but the AC68U seems quite a bit more advanced, hardware-wise, and is also supported by Tomato. I just thought that would be an even bigger leap forward, for an additional $20 or so over your solution. Plus, I wasn't going to go with anything less than an AC router. I'm invested in a bunch of AC1200 gear for my infrastructure.

 

[UsandThem]

That one looks like it would work for many, but my household was bogging down the Netgear R7000, which has similar(ish) hardware specs. Plus, we have five items that have 802.11AC cards in them.

Even on the new C5400 router I bought, the RAM usage from all the clients is well over 256 MB (it has 512 MB total installed).

 

[John Connor]

Thanks for your contribution, JC, but I've already purchased the refurb AC68U/R from Newegg, for around $120. I know that the N66U is also supported by Tomato, but the AC68U seems quite a bit more advanced, hardware-wise, and is also supported by Tomato. I just thought that would be an even bigger leap forward, for an additional $20 or so over your solution. Plus, I wasn't going to go with anything less than an AC router. I'm invested in a bunch of AC1200 gear for my infrastructure.

You're the OP?

 

[John Connor]

That one looks like it would work for many, but my household was bogging down the Netgear R7000, which has similar(ish) hardware specs. Plus, we have five items that have 802.11AC cards in them.

Even on the new C5400 router I bought, the RAM usage from all the clients is well over 256 MB (it has 512 MB total installed).

If AC is what you have, then I guess that won't work.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I see now, looking at more detailed info, that Tomato does NOT support "Hardware Rev. C1" of the AC68U. I don't know if that's only the "U" model, and all versions of the "R" model are supported, or if there is also a "Rev. C1" of the AC68R.

Guess I'll find out soon enough.

 

[UsandThem]

If no Tomato support, what about DD-WRT?

https://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Asus_RT-AC68U

I never used Tomato, but I used DD-WRT on a Buffalo router before, and it worked pretty well.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yeah, I've got a Buffalo N600 router with a MediaTek chipset that I put DD-WRT on.

Anyways, I received my AC68R refurb router today from Newegg. Had pre-downloaded the various Tomato 138 versions, on my business laptop that has an ethernet port, as well as the Asus recovery utility.
I powered on the Asus router, plugged it into the ethernet, logged in, saw it was working with the Asus firmware, shut it off, configured the recovery utility (ok, I had set a fixed IP of 192.168.1.19 too), booted the router in recovery mode, and uploaded the 10MB firmware version (VPN, I think).

Then, after a few minutes, and watching the lights reboot a few times on the router, I attempted to reset the NVRAM using the WPS button held down, after powering off and on the router. Saw the power light blink a few times, then reboot, and then I logged in with the default Tomato credentials.

Success!

So then I went to the menu, cleared the NVRAM again, and flashed the "AIO" firmware, which was 22MB in size. Maybe not in that order.

Anyways, I ended up with the AC68U "AIO" firmware, Shibby Tomato 138-MultiWAN.

I then configured it for my network. I didnt implement the multiWAN feature initially, as that takes some messing with the VLAN config, and possibly some NVRAM resets to get that working, and I didn't feel like messing with it.

Tranferring some Linux ISOs from my NAS to one of my mini-PCs, with a TrendNet AC1200 AP connecting them to my router, I was getting 18MB/sec, and router was under 25% CPU load.

I was getting faster transfers overall, when transferring to both NAS units at the same time, with the Engenius AC1200 AP, but I have to do more testing.

When I did my testing, I had my 5Ghz AC wireless set for 40Mhz channels, I changed it to 80Mhz.

I'm a little surprised though, as channel 153 isn't even an option in Tomato. That's what I had my Engenius set to. Tomato on the AC68U only gives me a choice of two different channels in 80Mhz mode.

Edit: With 80Mhz channels, and Channel 149, I'm getting 26MB/sec from my NAS.

 

[UsandThem]

It's been a very long time since I used Tomato, so I have no idea how it looks. At least it flashed on there, and you got it up and running.

Newegg actually sent me a target email last night based on me looking at routers, and with the coupon I could have gotten the Netgear R7800 x4s for $170 tax free. I thought about it getting it and returning the one I just bought, but I just couldn't in good conscience do it. Yes, I spent more on it, but so far I have been very happy with this TP-Link router. Absolutely no disconnects or slow-downs, so hopefully this will be the last router I need to buy for many years.

I know the new AD routers are just starting to hit the market, but I think it will be many years before AD finds its way into components. Plus, this router supports MU-MIMO, so even that will probably be a while before it starts becoming common in the various gadgets. I think the AC MU-MIMO tech should hopefully last me at least 4+ years.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Absolutely no disconnects or slow-downs, so hopefully this will be the last router I need to buy for many years.

I did have one brief (wired, not wireless) disconnection, the tray icon in Win7 indicated "no internet" for a moment, while streaming internet radio (it was interrupted, I had to stop and re-start it).
That was slightly disturbing. I'll have to keep an eye on it. I hope that the router wasn't thermal-throttling. Tomato gives temps for the CPU and the 2.4Ghz and the 5Ghz radio controller chips. 78C, 56C, 56C is around what they run under load.

I know the new AD routers are just starting to hit the market, but I think it will be many years before AD finds its way into components. Plus, this router supports MU-MIMO, so even that will probably be a while before it starts becoming common in the various gadgets. I think the AC MU-MIMO tech should hopefully last me at least 4+ years.

I had forgotten about AD routers. That's basically a one-room wireless solution. I can see it being useful for business conference rooms, or maybe 4K/8K smart TV streaming, but little else, because of the severe range deficit (can't even use it between room).

I see AC as being mainstream soon, if not already, and continuing on for the foreseeable future. MU-MIMO might be a nice feature, but it will be a while until that is universally supported on client devices. (Entry-level laptops and cell phones are still only including 2.4Ghz N150 radios.)

 

[VirtualLarry]

Even on the new C5400 router I bought, the RAM usage from all the clients is well over 256 MB (it has 512 MB total installed).

I'm really curious why that router is using so much RAM. Bufferbloat? I have a hard time believing that there are THAT many packets in-flight at once, but maybe I would be surprised. Sure that it's not a logging feature, listing every web site you go to (parental controls?) or something like that? What's the memory usage if you turn off logging?

Plus, this router supports MU-MIMO, so even that will probably be a while before it starts becoming common in the various gadgets. I think the AC MU-MIMO tech should hopefully last me at least 4+ years.

I was reading about that. Apparently, like most high-end routers that advertise MU-MIMO support - it's not baked-in yet. They advertise that the hardware is capable, and then claim that when it is ready, that there will be a firmware update that supports it. (Hope it's not like Fermi video cards and DirectX 12... LOL.)

 

[UsandThem]

I'm really curious why that router is using so much RAM. Bufferbloat? I have a hard time believing that there are THAT many packets in-flight at once, but maybe I would be surprised. Sure that it's not a logging feature, listing every web site you go to (parental controls?) or something like that? What's the memory usage if you turn off logging?

I'll have to look into it, I don't have parental controls or anything special enabled. Just the SPI firewall, a default feature called 'NAT Boost' (QOS automatically turned off using this setting) which TP-Link says prioritizes traffic and recommends using it instead QOS for better performance.

I was reading about that. Apparently, like most high-end routers that advertise MU-MIMO support - it's not baked-in yet. They advertise that the hardware is capable, and then claim that when it is ready, that there will be a firmware update that supports it. (Hope it's not like Fermi video cards and DirectX 12... LOL.)

Yeah, hopefully they do. Who knows, maybe once everything is finalized and they release the firmware to support MU-MIMO, it will be time for a new router.

If I remember correctly, the router manufacturers did the same thing when they announced 802.11n. They put a sticker on their boxes and said they would enable it with a future firmware update, and it seemed like a very long time before the standard was finalized.

 

[UsandThem]

Interesting find. I guess this "NAT Boost" is a pretty good feature:

Table 4 shows the C9 with NAT Boost disabled, which is required to use Bandwidth Control, cuts throughput by more than 50%. This is the same as we found with the C8.

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wire...4-tp-link-archer-c9-reviewed?showall=&start=1

http://www.dd-wrt.pl/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1045562&sid=4dfcfa0eea8be656640f9e0abc43a8eb

I bet this feature uses more RAM than QOS, but it providing that big of a performance boost, I'll stick with it. I wonder if it a proprietary tech of TP-Link because I never saw it on any of my previous routers over the years (Linksys, Asus, Buffalo, or Netgear).

 

[VirtualLarry]

I think that's just the "Hardware NAT" support of the chipset / CPU / WAN ethernet controller (one of those, at least). It's called "CTF" (cut-through forwarding) in some of the other firmwares. I'm pretty certain my AC68U/R has it too, at least, I watched a Tomato firmware preview video that the developer did for that router, and it showed a checkbox for "CTF forwarding" that could be enabled.

If I ever get faster than 100 or 150 Mbit FIOS, I might have to enable that. I generally don't use QoS (although, I possibly should), but I think that the multi-WAN routing stuff also interferes with CTF.

 

[UsandThem]

Yeah, maybe it was in the menu somewhere, and since I always used QOS in the past to prioritize Netflix streaming and my kid's gaming systems, maybe it was grayed out since I had it enabled. It seems if they release a DD-WRT build for this router, it won't be able to use utilize hardware offloads from reading through their forums.

But to be honest, this firmware is only the 2nd release from TP-Link so far, and I have had zero issues.....which is nice for such a low firmware revision. I might just stick with this.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I'm glad that you like your router. It really seems quite powerful. And if you got it for around $200, I think that you got a deal. I was looking at it at Amazon, it was close to $300.

I bought some TP-Link C20i routers (AC750), and was testing one of them. They have "WDS" support on both the 2.4Ghz and 5.0Ghz bands, which is essentially a wireless bridging feature. They don't seem to have "WISP" mode. But they work great as a media bridge. They also have QoS in the stock firmware, but it doesn't seem to have any effect on the throughput when using wireless WAN (5Ghz WDS mode). Which was a little disappointing to me. Apparently, it only works with the physical WAN port.

 

[UsandThem]

Yeah, while I like new tech, I am cheap and hate paying full price. I generally use Slickdeals to find coupons/deals, and I set price alerts there and on Camelcamelcamel. Anyways, someone posted some coupon code for select networking gear at Amazon, so I decided to pull the trigger. I just wish I still lived in a state where Amazon didn't charge sales tax, but it's nice having an Amazon distribution center 30 minutes away, so I can get same day delivery on many items.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Doesn't have to be. Just go to smallnetbuilder's router ranker, sort by overall ranking, or (since you were having performance issues) sort by routing performance, and go down the list until you hit your price limit.

It's not quite as nerd-gratifying as making a well-educated selection based on all available information and consideration of every possible use case, but the chances of you making a bad choice are essentially nonexistent.

Incidentally, the R7000 you had also has a fairly beefy dual core CPU, but only 256 MB of RAM. Are you doing a lot of torrents?

I'd be curious how any of the above would compare to a RasPi 3 (quad core, 1GB RAM) running pfsense though. You know, if you were feeling really, really geeky.

 

[UsandThem]

Doesn't have to be. Just go to smallnetbuilder's router ranker, sort by overall ranking, or (since you were having performance issues) sort by routing performance, and go down the list until you hit your price limit.

It's not quite as nerd-gratifying as making a well-educated selection based on all available information and consideration of every possible use case, but the chances of you making a bad choice are essentially nonexistent.

Incidentally, the R7000 you had also has a fairly beefy dual core CPU, but only 256 MB of RAM. Are you doing a lot of torrents?

I'd be curious how any of the above would compare to a RasPi 3 (quad core, 1GB RAM) running pfsense though. You know, if you were feeling really, really geeky.

No torrents at all. It worked fine up until we upgraded our teenagers to smart phones, and added the Playstation Vue TV streaming a few months back. So I believe it was just all the connections it was being hit with, because when they were at school and it was just me and the wife home using our cellphones over WIFI (T-Mobile), computers, TV, or VOIP, it worked without issue. Once they got home and added 4-7 more connections on it, it just struggled. Yeah, the R7000 isn't weak by any means hardware wise, but this new one has a 1.4 Ghz CPU and 3 co-processors, and so far it has handled all the different connections like a champ. My kids aren't bugging me about disconnecting from matches on Xbox Live, so that is a huge plus for me. I don't know too much about the RasPi 3, so I would have to look into what that is.

As far as the smallbuildernet site, they have been the starting point for my router research for years (that's how I picked the R7000). However, what was really different this time, is several sites recommended the Linksys WRT1900acs as their #1 recommended AC1900 router, while smallbuilder had it all the way at #11. There was just an unusually high difference in the various rankings. Also,there were a few others I researched, but some had some very bad reviews on Amazon and Newegg. I know to take user reviews with a grain of salt because many times its people who don't know what they are doing, but when I see a particular trend in negative reviews, it makes me cautious.

So factor that in, and my OCD when I buy any high-ticket item where I want to make sure that:

1. I am getting the right product for my immediate needs and intermediate needs.
2. Getting it at a good price (I hate buying something at full price).