Debt is the New Slavery

[Apple Of Sodom]

As a matter of fact, after a certain number of months with no active credit lines, you will have no beacon. Even if you had one previously.

You don't have to go into debt. Establish a credit card, pay the full payment on it, then keep the credit line open with $0 balance. You have an active credit line, it is open, and you are establishing a credit history. Obviously your credit will not grow very quickly, but it is a way to establish credit without owing people money.

 

[lotus503]

But you won't lose score either. This is silly. It isn't about enslavement. There are ot

If you carry no debt, good for you, but you've also done nothing to show a lender that you are trustworthy with their money, which is what your credit score shows. How can you prove that you are good with someone's money if you've never had it before?

It isn't a system trying to keep you down. It is a system where you have to establish that a lender can trust you. Credit reports track money you <GASP> borrow!

http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/debt-management/10-ways-to-build-credit.htm

Other ways to build credit without borrowing and being pinned down by the man.

1) Open a checking/savings account (shows lenders you can handle your own money)
2) Pay bills on time (because some credit models look at this as well)
3) Get a good job and keep it

But, to reiterate, building credit is mostly concerned with borrowing money (getting a loan) and carrying a balance isn't the only way to build credit, although borrowing money is the best way to build it because you build trust.

I don't disagree with your display of how credit works or its function.
Nor do I contend that the primary purpose of debt is slavery.

One cannot however ignore the end result of debt and the means to get there.

Its like all other things that are derived from corporate principal of growth. Make money, so banks and debt holders go out of their way to ensure debt because its profitable.

There are debt traps and many other ways debt holders use sociology and psychology to get people into debt. not to become salves but because collecting interest is profitable.


Its no different than in the food industry where marketing and gimmicks are used to get us to eat a particular product. These corporations will lobby to help the law favor the principal of collecting as much interest for profit as possible.

Moreover our society reflects this in that debt is a normal part of life for a lot of people.

We borrow to buy a house we are told we need to buy to fulfill the American dream.
We borrow for education we are told we need to succeed.

We are marketed to non stop for products and services that by in large are paid for by debt which has become the socially acceptable way to buy things.

Then we are told we all have choice and personal accountability for our debt, despite the fact since young children we are non stop bombarded with messages designed to get us to buy things, in a lot of cases financed by debt.


Then we have the whole racket to begin with

Bank borrows money from the fed at extremely low interest discount window.

Then then use that money to fund loans carrying higher interest up what like %24 Lets just call the average interest rate %10 for simplicity sake.

the whole thing seems parasitic to me and free choice is removed by indoctrination from time our folks first turn on the TV or drive past a billboard ad.

So in a sense debt is slavery because of the tools used to get us into it.

 

[werepossum]

I don't disagree with your display of how credit works or its function.
Nor do I contend that the primary purpose of debt is slavery.

One cannot however ignore the end result of debt and the means to get there.

Its like all other things that are derived from corporate principal of growth. Make money, so banks and debt holders go out of their way to ensure debt because its profitable.

There are debt traps and many other ways debt holders use sociology and psychology to get people into debt. not to become salves but because collecting interest is profitable.


Its no different than in the food industry where marketing and gimmicks are used to get us to eat a particular product. These corporations will lobby to help the law favor the principal of collecting as much interest for profit as possible.

Moreover our society reflects this in that debt is a normal part of life for a lot of people.

We borrow to buy a house we are told we need to buy to fulfill the American dream.
We borrow for education we are told we need to succeed.

We are marketed to non stop for products and services that by in large are paid for by debt which has become the socially acceptable way to buy things.

Then we are told we all have choice and personal accountability for our debt, despite the fact since young children we are non stop bombarded with messages designed to get us to buy things, in a lot of cases financed by debt.


Then we have the whole racket to begin with

Bank borrows money from the fed at extremely low interest discount window.

Then then use that money to fund loans carrying higher interest up what like %24 Lets just call the average interest rate %10 for simplicity sake.

the whole thing seems parasitic to me and free choice is removed by indoctrination from time our folks first turn on the TV or drive past a billboard ad.

So in a sense debt is slavery because of the tools used to get us into it.

Last year I was at 814 with no debt. This year I'm at 762 with no debt because we took out three more credit cards, Home Depot plus two for the discounts on the initial orders, and therefore have a greater potential debt. I think it's true that one needs some credit history to have a good credit score, but not current debt.

And if being exposed to advertising removes our free choice then we deserve to be slaves.

 

[highland145]

Last year I was at 814 with no debt. This year I'm at 762 with no debt because we took out three more credit cards, Home Depot plus two for the discounts on the initial orders, and therefore have a greater potential debt. I think it's true that one needs some credit history to have a good credit score, but not current debt.

And if being exposed to advertising removes our free choice then we deserve to be slaves.

I would guess the new lines brought your score down just because they're new. Even with a zero balance.


Looks like I need to increase my ad budget.

 

[lotus503]

Last year I was at 814 with no debt. This year I'm at 762 with no debt because we took out three more credit cards, Home Depot plus two for the discounts on the initial orders, and therefore have a greater potential debt. I think it's true that one needs some credit history to have a good credit score, but not current debt.

And if being exposed to advertising removes our free choice then we deserve to be slaves.

Yeah I carry a mortgage on one of three properties I own. 6 years ago I was in Credit card debt to the tune of 30kish. It was a choice to finance that debt and keep capital free for other investment opportunities.

My credit score is 720ish I think but its more because of a lack of credit accounts I suspect.

I think Smart, reasonable people who grow up in environments where financial responsibility is a key value do fairly well in regards to finances.

But I think that situation pales to compare to those who are not and are subjected to non stop barrage of marketing designed to get you to react in a particular fashion.

I don't think these people deserve to be slaves, I think we could do a better job stopping the drumbeat of influence that by design is to get you to act in accordance with whatever profit motive is being pimped.

there are reasons beer commercial and Fox news have hot women.
Just like there is a motive behind every single piece of advertising you see.

Its to get you to spend your money, often that you don't have and accrue debt to get.

Sure you can toss up the personal responsibility flag, but its easy to say when you are not impacted as much as others in what you are told to do day in and day out.

There is SUBSTANTIAL evidence that advertisers employ specific tactics based on sociology, psychology and neuroscience to trigger a specific response in viewers and listeners.

Our population is manipulated for profit and its a wonder this country is going downhill.

 

[werepossum]

I would guess the new lines brought your score down just because they're new. Even with a zero balance.


Looks like I need to increase my ad budget.

Too many credit cards - I have thirteen, which earned me a D. Oddly enough, three are closed but still count, I think for three years. I'm not carrying any debt, but I have the ability to incur a LOT of debt very quickly, and that makes lenders legitimately nervous - as you know. LOL

Yeah I carry a mortgage on one of three properties I own. 6 years ago I was in Credit card debt to the tune of 30kish. It was a choice to finance that debt and keep capital free for other investment opportunities.

My credit score is 720ish I think but its more because of a lack of credit accounts I suspect.

I think Smart, reasonable people who grow up in environments where financial responsibility is a key value do fairly well in regards to finances.

But I think that situation pales to compare to those who are not and are subjected to non stop barrage of marketing designed to get you to react in a particular fashion.

I don't think these people deserve to be slaves, I think we could do a better job stopping the drumbeat of influence that by design is to get you to act in accordance with whatever profit motive is being pimped.

there are reasons beer commercial and Fox news have hot women.
Just like there is a motive behind every single piece of advertising you see.

Its to get you to spend your money, often that you don't have and accrue debt to get.

Sure you can toss up the personal responsibility flag, but its easy to say when you are not impacted as much as others in what you are told to do day in and day out.

There is SUBSTANTIAL evidence that advertisers employ specific tactics based on sociology, psychology and neuroscience to trigger a specific response in viewers and listeners.

Our population is manipulated for profit and its a wonder this country is going downhill.

I'd argue that the profit motive made this country and our maligning of it is what is causing the country to go downhill, to the extent it is. Consider when I bought my house - paying rent, it would have taken me decades to save enough to afford a house comparable to what I bought, which is pretty modest. So I'm perfectly willing to allow someone to make a profit by loaning me money because that is the motivation to make that money available to me. Why would anyone loan me money for almost twenty years and not make a profit? Also, by earning a profit from loaning me money, the bank builds up a cushion which insures that if someone does not repay them, they still have money to make more loans. Otherwise, even if someone wished to loan money just from the pure goodness of her heart, the first default and the money is gone, so no one else can benefit from that loan.

This is the true beauty of capitalism: both sides get to decide whether the deal is worth doing, both sides get something they value more than what they give up - both sides win. You are arguing for protecting people from themselves, but that requires that we take power over them, declare them property or children or otherwise not able to make decisions for their own best interests.

You may prevent me from pawning my car title and feel you've done me a great service. I on the other hand may see it differently; perhaps in protecting me from someone "taking advantage of me" to make a big profit, you've also prevented me from fixing my wife's car so that she loses her job and we end up worse off financially. Perhaps my water heater has split, and without that payday loan my kids can't take hot baths so they'll play hookie. Could be I've made some stupid life decisions and now I can't finance an automobile for less than 20% - but that automobile will allow me to get and keep a job, start making good decisions. Maybe it offends you that I spend my money on beer promoted with the fantasy of hot women flocking to me - but if it's what I can afford, and it makes me happy, and I'm pulling my weight and not hurting anyone, why is it wrong for me to reward the people making those commercials with my own money?

Virtually all of us have made bad decisions and paid some "stupid tax", as Dave Ramsey calls it. (I've awakened not once but twice to realize that I have credit card debt equal to a third of my take-home salary, back when rates were 18% or more; doesn't get much more stupid than that.) How else are we to grow and learn? Who among us is so wise that he can make better decisions for others than they can make for themselves? If someone loans me money for profit, is he taking advantage of me, or taking a chance on me? If I'm not a slave, surely that is my decision, for what is a slave other than someone not free to make his own decisions?

Cue Rosann Rosanadana: "Well, Mike, you sure ask a lot of questions for a guy from Tennessee."

 

[1prophet]

Yeah I carry a mortgage on one of three properties I own. 6 years ago I was in Credit card debt to the tune of 30kish. It was a choice to finance that debt and keep capital free for other investment opportunities.

My credit score is 720ish I think but its more because of a lack of credit accounts I suspect.

I think Smart, reasonable people who grow up in environments where financial responsibility is a key value do fairly well in regards to finances.

But I think that situation pales to compare to those who are not and are subjected to non stop barrage of marketing designed to get you to react in a particular fashion.

I don't think these people deserve to be slaves, I think we could do a better job stopping the drumbeat of influence that by design is to get you to act in accordance with whatever profit motive is being pimped.

there are reasons beer commercial and Fox news have hot women.
Just like there is a motive behind every single piece of advertising you see.

Its to get you to spend your money, often that you don't have and accrue debt to get.

Sure you can toss up the personal responsibility flag, but its easy to say when you are not impacted as much as others in what you are told to do day in and day out.

There is SUBSTANTIAL evidence that advertisers employ specific tactics based on sociology, psychology and neuroscience to trigger a specific response in viewers and listeners.

Our population is manipulated for profit and its a wonder this country is going downhill.

Proven fact

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7EwXmxpExw

 

[exdeath]

Nobody is forcing you to buy shit you can't afford. Well other than Obama. Slavery not found.

 

[Chiropteran]

Nobody is forcing you to buy shit you can't afford. Well other than Obama. Slavery not found.

You are in debt without buying a single thing.

Outstanding Public Debt as of 28 Mar 2013 at 03:54:31 PM GMT is:
$16,765,811,228,014
The estimated population of the United States is 314,674,942
so each citizen's share of this debt is $53,279.78.

Will that be cash, credit or check?

 

[werepossum]

You are in debt without buying a single thing.

Outstanding Public Debt as of 28 Mar 2013 at 03:54:31 PM GMT is:
$16,765,811,228,014
The estimated population of the United States is 314,674,942
so each citizen's share of this debt is $53,279.78.

Will that be cash, credit or check?

This is true. However, "free" college can only be provided by the government, and only by taking and borrowing ever more money. Thus, if college debt equals slavery and the only solution is "free" college, one would incur even more debt and even more slavery. That leaves not attending college and paying as you go. I certainly have no problem with the latter - I did some of that myself - and I have no substantial problem with the former, but it isn't necessarily the smartest thing to do. If you want to do something that requires a college education, and a lot of things do, college is a good investment.

 

[Svnla]

You are in debt without buying a single thing.

Outstanding Public Debt as of 28 Mar 2013 at 03:54:31 PM GMT is:
$16,765,811,228,014
The estimated population of the United States is 314,674,942
so each citizen's share of this debt is $53,279.78.

Will that be cash, credit or check?

The 16.7T dollars value (and going up every second) is NOT the whole thing.

If you include all of the "unfunded" liabilities from federal, state, county, city, and local, then the total debt is much higher. How about $87 Trillion dollars (and climbing) as of 2012?

Source = http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323353204578127374039087636.html

 

[First]

In order to maintain a good credit rating, you have to carry a certain amount of debt. Its all a game designed to keep people in some form of debt.

No you don't; you could open up 5 credit cards and charge a dollar to each of them every month, pay off the full balance every month and have a 720+ credit score almost immediately. 30 days of revolving credit balances of $5 qualifies as debt in definition only, but certainly not in spirit. 99.9% of the population does not consider that as debt worth mentioning, and it's a surefire way to ensure great credit.

 

[First]

College isn't necessary for a lot of jobs; some off the top of my head would be IT, auto and certain manufacturing jobs, and I'm sure many other fields. Having graduated myself and still being in IT (and finance), though, I found it immensely rewarding both educationally and in terms of attaining real-world skills, especially business skills i.e. interacting with and selling to people, be it your business services or a product. A lot of that is innate for some, but I'd wager it's really a learned skill that has to at the very least be honed for most people at the undergraduate level. Plus, college really is as good as gold for the friends and connections you make, depending on the institution, as it is for the skills you pick up. The debt spread out over time at a low interest rate isn't a serious consideration for a lot of people, so I think the whole college debt debate is sort of overblown in that sense. Don't even mention Ivy League schools either, as I'd wager a massive portion of them are from wealthy families anyway so the debt isn't even significant to them.

 

[lotus503]

Nobody is forcing you to buy shit you can't afford. Well other than Obama. Slavery not found.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...tising-really-does-work-claim-scientists.html

 

[bignateyk]

In order to maintain a good credit rating, you have to carry a certain amount of debt. Its all a game designed to keep people in some form of debt.

Come again?

 

[OverVolt]

College isn't necessary for a lot of jobs; some off the top of my head would be IT, auto and certain manufacturing jobs, and I'm sure many other fields. Having graduated myself and still being in IT (and finance), though, I found it immensely rewarding both educationally and in terms of attaining real-world skills, especially business skills i.e. interacting with and selling to people, be it your business services or a product. A lot of that is innate for some, but I'd wager it's really a learned skill that has to at the very least be honed for most people at the undergraduate level. Plus, college really is as good as gold for the friends and connections you make, depending on the institution, as it is for the skills you pick up. The debt spread out over time at a low interest rate isn't a serious consideration for a lot of people, so I think the whole college debt debate is sort of overblown in that sense. Don't even mention Ivy League schools either, as I'd wager a massive portion of them are from wealthy families anyway so the debt isn't even significant to them.

It depends when you went to college, you're probably over 30. Thanks for your insight (the same as every other 30 year old, who did what their parents told them to do and it worked).

Most people I know in the 22-25 range are debt slaves. Are you giving advice or just patting yourself on the back? Heh lol.

 

[Oldgamer]

In order to maintain a good credit rating, you have to carry a certain amount of debt. Its all a game designed to keep people in some form of debt.

Well yea, that is an issue. Because you can have a kid with "0" debt (no credit score), never borrowed anything and their credit rating would be just that "0" and they would not qualify to buy something like a car or house without having a co-signer of some sort. The banks have set it up essentially where you have to "build" your credit rating and demonstrate you can pay back a certain amount of debt without paying late, or not paying at all.

So yes, you have to have a certain amount of debt incurred for credit purposes. Like you Texashiker I think that this is a scam.

I know folks who don't trust banks and keep all their cash hidden somewhere and always use cash. If they needed a loan for anything they wouldn't be able to get it, even if they had a "0" credit rating, never having borrowed a dime in their life.

 

[bignateyk]

Well yea, that is an issue. Because you can have a kid with "0" debt (no credit score), never borrowed anything and their credit rating would be just that "0" and they would not qualify to buy something like a car or house without having a co-signer of some sort. The banks have set it up essentially where you have to "build" your credit rating and demonstrate you can pay back a certain amount of debt without paying late, or not paying at all.

So yes, you have to have a certain amount of debt incurred for credit purposes. Like you Texashiker I think that this is a scam.

I know folks who don't trust banks and keep all their cash hidden somewhere and always use cash. If they needed a loan for anything they wouldn't be able to get it, even if they had a "0" credit rating, never having borrowed a dime in their life.

If they didn't trust banks and always used cash, then why would they care about credit rating? I wouldn't loan money to someone like that because they've clearly got a few screws loose in their head.

Also, what texashiker said is patently false. You don't need to carry any kind of debt to get a credit rating. You can just pay back your balance every month and you'll do just fine.

If you want someone to loan you money then you need to demonstrate that you are trustworthy and are capable of paying it back. Someone who socks money away in their couch doesn't fit that description.

 

[highland145]

If they didn't trust banks and always used cash, then why would they care about credit rating? I wouldn't loan money to someone like that because they've clearly got a few screws loose in their head.

My Dad borrowed for their house, 1961, and his 1st car, 1957. Never had any other debt. A few years ago, he got tired of using our credit cards if he wanted to order something. His bank turned him down, he asked to close his account...cash, immediately...~$25K iirc...they gave him a card with a $500 credit limit.:biggrin:

If you want someone to loan you money then you need to demonstrate that you are trustworthy and are capable of paying it back. Someone who socks money away in their couch doesn't fit that description.

It is unfortunate. Haven't found a way to check the normal monthly bills..elec, water, phone.

 

[OverVolt]

You know there are tricks to raising your credit rating. You can get a bank loan using your deposits as collateral if you have a history of keeping money in the bank and just pay it back next month.

Credit is a system that was meant to be gamed. Just look at Donald Trump. You are going about it all wrong with this "trustworthy" stuff. Donald Trump is trustworthy? You should look into how many times he has gone into bankruptcy, yet he secures $400m loans for skyscrapers.

 

[Oldgamer]

If they didn't trust banks and always used cash, then why would they care about credit rating? I wouldn't loan money to someone like that because they've clearly got a few screws loose in their head.

Also, what texashiker said is patently false. You don't need to carry any kind of debt to get a credit rating. You can just pay back your balance every month and you'll do just fine.

If you want someone to loan you money then you need to demonstrate that you are trustworthy and are capable of paying it back. Someone who socks money away in their couch doesn't fit that description.

I think we are saying the same thing. I agree with you that people who don't trust banks and horde their money some place private is a bit odd. I was just giving an example of someone like that not being able to obtain any credit because they don't have any debt / credit history.. so not sure what your dispute here is..lol

 

[exdeath]

My Dad borrowed for their house, 1961, and his 1st car, 1957. Never had any other debt. A few years ago, he got tired of using our credit cards if he wanted to order something. His bank turned him down, he asked to close his account...cash, immediately...~$25K iirc...they gave him a card with a $500 credit limit.

Should have proceeded with closing. $25k in bank but they dont trust him with more than $500?

Insulting as hell.

 

[First]

It depends when you went to college, you're probably over 30. Thanks for your insight (the same as every other 30 year old, who did what their parents told them to do and it worked).

Most people I know in the 22-25 range are debt slaves. Are you giving advice or just patting yourself on the back? Heh lol.

If your parents were successful you'd have to be pretty misguided if you didn't listen to them on ways to be successful, assuming they were giving advice and not mandates. College is generally the right route for most successful people, I don't think many people argue this. I also don't think many people argue that for a good chunk of the population, college isn't the right route and they can be perfectly successful as well. It's just a smaller proportion of the "successful" population. And I'm under 30.

 

[First]

My Dad borrowed for their house, 1961, and his 1st car, 1957. Never had any other debt. A few years ago, he got tired of using our credit cards if he wanted to order something. His bank turned him down, he asked to close his account...cash, immediately...~$25K iirc...they gave him a card with a $500 credit limit.:biggrin:

With all due respect, your dad didn't have good credit if he couldn't get more than a $500 CC limit.

 

[highland145]

Should have proceeded with closing. $25k in bank but they dont trust him with more than $500?

Insulting as hell.

Not really. From their perspective, credit wise, he didn't exist. I told him that I steer away from people with no credit but I do look at other factors (job, residence, income) to see if I can do something. Some button pusher at a bank won't care to look until he wants his $$, in cash, now.

With all due respect, your dad didn't have good credit if he couldn't get more than a $500 CC limit.

You are correct.

Edit:If you have no credit, you have no score. Not a zero but no score at all.