Debian wins Munich deal

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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It's good to see Debian getting in the news for things other than not releasing Sarge yet =)

Personally I don't think it's that big of a deal, Debian got chosen because they're non-profit, not because of their Free Software Guidelines adherence or anything like that. It's good to see people supporting Debian, but in this case they're just using it, they're not developing or donating hardware or anything so overall it won't have much impact on Debian.
 

n0cmonkey

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Jun 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
It's good to see Debian getting in the news for things other than not releasing Sarge yet =)

Personally I don't think it's that big of a deal, Debian got chosen because they're non-profit, not because of their Free Software Guidelines adherence or anything like that. It's good to see people supporting Debian, but in this case they're just using it, they're not developing or donating hardware or anything so overall it won't have much impact on Debian.

The wider user base doesn't help Debian?
 

kamper

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Mar 18, 2003
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I was surprised Debian got it because Debian isn't a corporation that will be responsible for supporting the city. Granted, there are companies that are being paid to help, but Munich is still relying on a bunch of folks spread around the world that they've never met and probably never will.

I think it is a big deal just for that reason. If it goes well it will put a real kink in the argument that you can't count on open source software for serious stuff. I mean, I know Debian has a very good reputation among enthousiasts and people that can exercise close control over the machines it is installed on, but are you aware of any deployments that are so big underneath a single management and support body? I'd be interested to see how they work out network-wide patching and any kind of large scale access control.
 

n0cmonkey

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Jun 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: kamper
I was surprised Debian got it because Debian isn't a corporation that will be responsible for supporting the city. Granted, there are companies that are being paid to help, but Munich is still relying on a bunch of folks spread around the world that they've never met and probably never will.

I think it is a big deal just for that reason. If it goes well it will put a real kink in the argument that you can't count on open source software for serious stuff. I mean, I know Debian has a very good reputation among enthousiasts and people that can exercise close control over the machines it is installed on, but are you aware of any deployments that are so big underneath a single management and support body? I'd be interested to see how they work out network-wide patching and any kind of large scale access control.

HP supposedly has a decent Debian install base.

I think patching is easy. Setup apt to run every hour/day/whatever, but point it to a centrally located, munich admin controlled, repository. The admins there make their own packages and stuff after testing the official ones.

My opinion on it anyhow.
 

drag

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Jul 4, 2002
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Debian can rock. You just have to know what your doing and it's perfectly OK for self-deployements..

It all depends on the corporate/business culture, some companies require very good support in their products, other companies prefer to rely on their own resources completely. Most people are inbetween. And it's not like you can't get good help for Debian if you want it. There are plenty of smaller companies, consultants, and individuals that support it.

If I needed something that was suppose to be supported I'd get Redhat or possibly Novell. Depending on the requirements. Also if I depended on closed source software, such as Oracle, matlab, or whatnot I'd use Redhat becuase it's certified to work.

But if I was responsable for it myself, and had to provide support or had a limited budget then Debian would be my first choice, baring anything that may come up.

For instance one thing I've been playing around with in the past couple weeks is trying to muck around with setting up a 'Linux Domain', similar to a Active Directory setup. Should be suitable for large deployments, all the software is proven and capable. Of course this is just all experimentation for me..

I have a Kerberos realm setup (with a fake top level domain .goob.), all the users and services are athenticated to it. I have a OpenLDAP server to take care of groups and users.. It's uses TLS style encryption via OpenSSL to protect the information on it. Note that there are no passwords and no users are authenticated against the LDAP, all this stuff is stored in Kerberos database (although I did test libpam_ldap and it worked, once I added a password entry in the ldap database). Even access to the ldap information itself is authenticated using SASL thru GSSAPI. Normal services like GDM and login use libpam_krb5. Kerberized services like OpenSSH and OpenAFS are setup not to use pam, but can communicate to kerberos automaticly.

I use OpenAFS for my home folders, which is pretty cool. OpenAFS seems to me to rock and is under healthy and active developement. It's very fast, the volumes allow for easy replication and backup. Local file cache keeps it fast, and every time you access a file, even in cache, it checks back to the server for updated versions.

All of this is aviable thru Debian's normal apt-get resources and is maintained. It's pretty snazzy, IMO.

Also with Debian's OpenAFS version I found something funny. It has a list of a whole crapload of AFS servers on the internet. 158 actually.. I think. Mostly read-only.

It's kinda cool to go snooping around other people's servers...
for just *.edu afs servers:
drag@spock:/$ ls -d /afs/*.edu
/afs/acm.uiuc.edu /afs/dev.mit.edu /afs/northstar.dartmouth.edu
/afs/andrew.cmu.edu /afs/ece.cmu.edu /afs/physics.unc.edu
/afs/asu.edu /afs/eecs.harvard.edu /afs/physics.wisc.edu
/afs/athena.mit.edu /afs/eng.utah.edu /afs/pitt.edu
/afs/atlas.umich.edu /afs/engr.wisc.edu /afs/psc.edu
/afs/cats.ucsc.edu /afs/glue.umd.edu /afs/qatar.cmu.edu
/afs/cede.psu.edu /afs/hep.caltech.edu /afs/rose-hulman.edu
/afs/chem.cmu.edu /afs/hep.sc.edu /afs/rpi.edu
/afs/citi.umich.edu /afs/hep.wisc.edu /afs/sbp.ri.cmu.edu
/afs/clarkson.edu /afs/iastate.edu /afs/scoobydoo.psc.edu
/afs/club.cc.cmu.edu /afs/ir.stanford.edu /afs/scotch.ece.cmu.edu
/afs/cs.cmu.edu /afs/lsa.umich.edu /afs/sipb.mit.edu
/afs/cs.pitt.edu /afs/math.lsa.umich.edu /afs/slac.stanford.edu
/afs/cs.rose-hulman.edu /afs/msc.cornell.edu /afs/umbc.edu
/afs/cs.stanford.edu /afs/msu.edu /afs/umich.edu
/afs/cs.uwm.edu /afs/ncsa.uiuc.edu /afs/umr.edu
/afs/cs.wisc.edu /afs/nd.edu /afs/uncc.edu
/afs/dbic.dartmouth.edu /afs/net.mit.edu /afs/wam.umd.edu

Kinda interesting. All of it uses normal Unix file symantics like it's local.
 

drag

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Jul 4, 2002
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MIT

I don't know enough to make a educated choice, but it seems that MIT is more common in documentation I could find. All kerberos version 5. I disabled version 4 support...
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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The wider user base doesn't help Debian?

Sure, to an extent, but IMO it's mostly in a marketing fashion. The new users won't affect the production, processes, rules, etc of Debian AFAICT.

I was surprised Debian got it because Debian isn't a corporation that will be responsible for supporting the city. Granted, there are companies that are being paid to help, but Munich is still relying on a bunch of folks spread around the world that they've never met and probably never will.

That's the whole point. Munich isn't dependent on a single company for support and since Debian is non-profit there's no question as to their motives. Any time you're using Linux you're dependent on a bunch of folks spread around the world that you'll most likely never meet, do you think using RedHat or SuSe would change that?

Debian has a very good reputation among enthousiasts and people that can exercise close control over the machines it is installed on, but are you aware of any deployments that are so big underneath a single management and support body? I'd be interested to see how they work out network-wide patching and any kind of large scale access control.

Debian is what HP develops on internally. HP also pays some Debian developers, donates hardware, etc.
 

kamper

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Mar 18, 2003
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Originally posted by: NothinmanThat's the whole point. Munich isn't dependent on a single company for support and since Debian is non-profit there's no question as to their motives. Any time you're using Linux you're dependent on a bunch of folks spread around the world that you'll most likely never meet, do you think using RedHat or SuSe would change that?
Of course it does. You have a company that depends on the quality product for it's livelyhood so you can take that as an indication that it's been well tested and it's the best they can produce. I'm sure you can count on the same from Debian, but they've got no proof and they're playing with tax payers' money. Say a major security vulnerability is found one day. You know that Redhat/Novell are going to respond as quickly as they can because their business depends on it. There's nothing to stop Debian developers from saying "Eh, I don't feel like it now. I'll fix it later." Again, not that I believe that it's likely to happen...

I didn't know about HP and Debian. That is interesting to see but according to drag's link they still only support it with HP extensions and on specific hardware. Not something that will help Munich.
 

KB

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Nov 8, 1999
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Debian is great, but I am surprised they wouldn't choose a Debian based commercial distro like ubuntu, or Userlinux if that ever comes out. Ubuntu has the benefits of Debian asnd is compatible with debian packages, but it is more up-to-date.
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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Say a major security vulnerability is found one day. You know that Redhat/Novell are going to respond as quickly as they can because their business depends on it. There's nothing to stop Debian developers from saying "Eh, I don't feel like it now. I'll fix it later." Again, not that I believe that it's likely to happen...

And Debian can just take RH/Novell's patch and integrate it if they want, if they don't feel like doing the research to fix it they don't have to. But the process to become a DD is so long and painful that anyone who actually makes it in will be sure to be diligent with their packages, I'm sure. And Munich is paying someone for support, so even if Debian doesn't want to fix it, the company Munich is paying can fix it and push the fix up to Debian.

I didn't know about HP and Debian. That is interesting to see but according to drag's link they still only support it with HP extensions and on specific hardware. Not something that will help Munich.

I didn't say it would help Munich, all I wanted to note is that HP is a huge Debian supporter internally, even if their external support services aren't that great.
 

kamper

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Mar 18, 2003
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I didn't say you did :p My original question was if anyone has done large scale deployments of the same software that Munich will be using and so far as I'm aware the answer is still no. But the fact that HP can and does do it with their own modifications is proof enough that it can be done, at least by a technology company.
 

Nothinman

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Sep 14, 2001
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My original question was if anyone has done large scale deployments of the same software that Munich will be using

No, you just asked about any large scale deployments, I have no idea what software HP or Munich will be/are using =)
 

timswim78

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Jan 1, 2003
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I am really hoping that this will go well for the Munich government because it could be a big boost to getting Linux more accepted as a desktop operating system in Europe (and hopefully the U.S.)
 

kamper

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Mar 18, 2003
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Originally posted by: Nothinman
My original question was if anyone has done large scale deployments of the same software that Munich will be using
No, you just asked about any large scale deployments, I have no idea what software HP or Munich will be/are using =)
Good point. I was assuming you could read my mind and knew I was thinking about "vanilla Debian", even though I didn't say it ;)