Debate Coaches Say Gore Won

[chess9]

Texas issues kill Bush....

I covered the debate team for my college newspaper, so I know how they think. I agree with this result. But what is important to a debate coach is a great argument that goes unrebutted. Bush looked like a deer caught in someone's headlights on these Texas issues.

 

[nickdakick]

<< Ted W. Belch >>

ROTFL Sorry this is OT but I just had to say it. Crawled up the chair a second ago. Must be pretty hard as a teacher with a name like that.

 

[Chef0083]

I guess it's a shame that the voting public doesn't consist soley of debate coaches.........:Q



..

 

[glenn1]

I won't be able to say whether or not i agree with their assessment, since i was only able to hear about 5 minutes of the debate on the car radio. Gore could have very well 'won' the debate, if your frame of reference is the debating technicals.

Needless to say though, that superior technical performance in a debate does not necessarily translate into votes. Sometimes it is matters entirely independent of the actual content of the debates that people remember, and often one memorable phrase can trump a more detailed and articulate debate opponent. Witness the Bentsen-Quayle debates a few years ago. In actual performance, purely in terms of strength of arguments and presentation, Quayle did relatively fine. But an otherwise fairly solid performance got wiped out by the now famous (infamous?) &quot;you're no Jack Kennedy&quot; line.

Similarly, Gore might have won the battle, and still lose the war. The perceptions that people will take away from the debate should start to gel during the next few days, after folks have the chance to talk about it with friends and coworkers. After a few days, we'll have a fairer idea of who &quot;won&quot; the debate in reality. And it could break either way... remember after the first debate, that what quite a few people took away ended up being the sighs from the Gore side. Such factors work both ways, and could just as easily come back to bite Bush this time. Only time will tell.

 

[Tiranee]

Alas, most viewer polls, three quarters, say that Bush laid the smack down.

 

[AndrewR]

Of course, I always thought that the Jack Kennedy statement from Bensen was a compliment -- no mob connections.

 

[PG]

I love this part:

GORE: I would agree. And I also agree that most police officers, of course, are doing a good job and hate this practice also.

I talked to an African-American police officer in Springfield, Massachusetts, not--not long ago--who raised this question and said that in his opinion, one of the biggest solutions is in the training, and not only the training in police procedures, but human--human relations.

And I think that racial profiling is part of a larger issue of how we deal with race in America.

And as for singling people out because of race, you know James Byrd was singled out because of his race, in Texas. And other Americans have been singled out because of their race or--or ethnicity. And that's why I think that we can embody our values by passing a hate crimes law. I think these crimes are different.

I think they're different because they're based on prejudice and hatred, which is--which gives rise to crimes that have not just a single victim, but they're intended to stigmatize and dehumanize a whole group of people.

LEHRER: Do you have a different view of that?

BUSH: No, I don't really.

LEHRER: On hate crimes violence?

BUSH: No, I--we got one in Texas, and guess what? The three men who murdered James Byrd, guess what's going to happen to them? They're going to be put to death. A jury found them guilty and I--it's going to be hard to punish them any worse after they get put to death. And it's the right cost; it's the right decision.

-----------------
Taken from the transcript by the Washington Post.

OK, Bush was wrong. Only 2 of the 3 recieved the death penalty. But Texas doesn't screw around. They have real punishments and deterrents to crime.

 

[FettsBabe]

The death penalty is not a detterence to crime. Check the crime rates vs. capital punishment rates.

I thought the best part was when Bush said...if I become President, and I find out Iraq is making bombs again there will be consequences!!!!!! While I don't want to hurt the innocent civilians in Iraq, I do think we need to rid ourselves of that SOB, Sadam. Eventhough the original war was related to oil, I do tend to appreciate the fact that he doesn't need any weapons!

I also liked the idea that he is intune to the fact that we need to rebuild our military and increase morale. I think a good republican president can do that! We have alot to correct within the military since Clinton was elected. Our goal should be to remain the No. 1. Superpower.

 

[Double Trouble]

Ah yes, once again the idiot liberal 'experts' proclaim Gore to have 'won' the debate on 'issues'. Once again, they show how they can't see past their idiology and that they are out of touch with the viewing public. Every single poll taken since the debate shows the vast majority of the viewing public thought Bush kicked some serious Gore butt.

The real question is, will it have any impact on the actual voting? I don't think it will, but time will tell.

 

[Double Trouble]

Oh, and Fettsbabe, it may not be a deterrent to others who commit crimes, but I'm quite certain those three men will not commit any more crimes -- unless they come back reincarnated or something.

 

[Chef0083]

I think that most people who are going to vote have allready made up their minds. I think the polls may help sway some people on way or the other if they are on the fence though. I think that Gore's campaign may have put him in a straight jacket. He needed to be less less agressive and smug but last night he was just plain passive.

I loved the whole bit where they talked about the &quot;misunderstandings&quot; of Gore's information from the first debate...

 

[Raspewtin]

Summary USA Today/CNN/Gallup Poll


Apparently Bush seems to have won this round, although it didn't seem decisive either way to me. Bush did seem to excude a Reagan-type charisma, I thought.

 

[PG]

The death penalty is not a detterence to crime. Check the crime rates vs. capital punishment rates.

Sorry, but I don't buy it, and I don't quite understand what you are trying to compare. I think you might be saying that some states with capital punishment have higher crime rates than states without it. That could be true, but I don't think you can prove that it wouldn't be even worse without capital punishment. Also, the term &quot;crime rates&quot; would need to be clearly defined before numbers just start getting thrown around. Somehow only violent crimes where the death penalty would be appropriate should be selected for this &quot;crime rate&quot; if you want a fair comparison of numbers.

 

[chess9]

First of all, most people watching the debates were men, by a large majority. Notice in these political threads that except for a couple of ladies, the ladies normally eschew politics as though it were smallbox? (Do they know something we need to hear about?)So, most people polled would have to be men. Men are overwhelmingly in favor of Bush, so Bush is going to look good in the polls. Also, in my neighborhood, where political signs are not allowed, the only people with signs out are Bush supporters! They are rabid about their support for Bush.

Regarding the death penalty, Bush sounded absolutely venal when he talked about the death penalty for those 3 killers. I think I saw blood dripping form the corners of his mouth. His rabidity on the topic is obvious. My wife nearly keeled over when she heard him, and she's in favor of the death penalty! (I'm going to strangle that woman yet!)

Anyway, these polls are about as worthless as the Vote.com poll where all the geeks for Bush hit the enter button a thousand times.

This is a very close race. I DO expect Bush to win, but I expect the Congress to fall to the Democrats. I'm praying McCollum gets a long retirement.

 

[PG]

Bush's eyes lit up when Gore mentioned James Byrd and Texas because Bush knew he had a great opprotunity to stick it to Gore. Instead of talking and making promises as Gore was doing in the debate, Texas has laws against hate crimes already and gave the ultimate punishment to 2 of the 3 involved in the James Byrd murder.

I don't believe the polls either. How many average Americans are polled? Not me because I have a job and work when most of these polls are conducted. The same is true for most average Americans who have jobs.

 

[FettsBabe]

While I don't want to argue the death penatly, I did pull some info fo you to review. You can read these studies if you like.

Capital Punishment and Deterrence: Examining the Effect of Executions on Murder in Texas.
Authors John Sorenson, Robert Wrinkle, Victoria Brewer, and James Marquart examined executions in Texas between 1984 and 1997. They speculated that if a deterrent effect were to exist, it would be
found in Texas because of the high number of death sentences and executions within the state. Using patterns in executions across the study period and the relatively steady rate of murders in Texas, the
authors found no evidence of a deterrent effect. The study concluded that the number of executions was unrelated to murder rates in general, and that the number of executions was unrelated to felony rates.
(45 Crime and Delinquency 481-93 (1999)).

Deterrence, Brutalization, and the Death Penalty: Another Examination of Oklahomas Return to Capital Punishment.
In this study, author William Bailey speculated that if executions had a deterrent effect in Oklahoma, it would be observable by comparing murder rates and rates of sub-types of murder, such as felony-murder, stranger robbery-related killings, stranger non-felony murder, and
argument-related killings, before and after the resumption of executions. Bailey examined the period between 1989 and 1991 for total killings and sub-types of killing. After controlling for a number of
variables, Bailey found that there was no evidence for a deterrent effect. He did, however, find that there was a significant increase in stranger killings and non-felony stranger killings after Oklahoma
resumed executions after a 25-year moratorium.
(36 Criminology 711-33 (1998).

**Before last night I thought I would be voting for Gore. Now I'm not so sure. I believe Gore is right regarding tuition credit for families, and I believe Bush is right with military issues.

 

[chess9]

That's a very nice post FB! I've read similar studies. I worked on a prison reform project in the 60's and became interested in this topic when I was about your age. (I.e., still had mother's milk in my mouth. )

Unfortunately, the people in favor of the death penalty don't really care if it deters crime. I think many people have a deep psychological need to see violence acted out in their behalf. That's why we have the death penalty. It has no rational basis, and certainly no legitimate moral underpinnings. The look on Bush's face said it all.

Kill not. That means abortion and the death penalty are a no no.

NB: Bush isn't a bad man, and I don't mean to imply that. I just think he isn't in touch with why he feels the way he does about the death penalty. Just another case of an &quot;examined life isn't worth living.&quot;

 

[chess9]

Red: ROFLMAO! Keebler Elf, indeed. That smirk of Bush's is a killer. I don't how anyone can think he's presidential material.

 

[denali]

FettsBabe,

While I agree that the death penalty as it is currently carried out is not much of a deterrence. If the sentance was carried out after a reasonable amount of time and in public it would be a much better deterrant. For example if the death penalty was carried out within one year and broadcast on national TV live, I think you would see it work as a much deterrence. Also the public does not have to worry about that person commiting another crime.

 

[slunk]

Only two of those men are receiving the death penalty. The other received life in prison. I think it is sick the way Bush had a little grin on his face when he said they would be put to death. I still don't understand how you can teach people that killing is wrong by killing. It doesn't make sense.

 

[chess9]

Denali:

If we must have the death penalty, I think they should be done publicly. Why do you think they aren't? Because the proponents of the death penalty, who are in office, know it would stir up passions against the death penalty. The last thing you want if you are in favor of the death penalty is to have them made public. You might consider a brief history of the guillotine.

 

[denali]

chess9,

You might be right that in the long run it would make more people against it but I'd be willing to risk it.

As for the hate crime laws, why does anybody think these are needed. As far as I can tell all of them are already crimes. All they do is federalise crimes, and make some people feel good. If anyone could tell me one of the hate crime laws that wasn't covered by someother law I'd be impressed.

 

[Shudder]

Structured debate is lame.

I went for an argumentation class and it was done by the damn debate captain/coach ho at our school. A few years older than me and oh man so so wiser.

The only people who got A's were those who did Debate in HS/College. What winners

Actually, the best arguments are ones you can't prepare for. Let's see Gore win that. Personally, I'd like to see them grudge-match it with huge boxing gloves rather than hear them run their gums over the same BS we've all heard a million times before.

 

[PG]

But Bush is in much better shape. I read an article recently by a guy who went running with both guys. I think it was in a running magazine, but I could be wrong. Gore runs at a 9 minute per mile pace while Bush runs at a 7 minute per mile pace. Bush is pretty serious about running. I know, running is different than a fist fight, so maybe Gore would win, but if the fight went for any length of time Gore would be huffing and puffing so bad Bush could get in some easy shots.

 

[Double Trouble]

Bush was simply pointing out that unlike other places, Texas does enforce the law, and the men that comitted that horrible crime are gonna face the music for it. Whether you agree with the death penalty or not is a different story, you could argue that forever.

Chess,<<I think many people have a deep psychological need to see violence acted out in their behalf.>>

I have no such need. I see it as a simple matter really. First, those men are getting punished for their deeds. Second, the families of the victim(s) get 'closure'. I don't know whether it's a deterrent or not (I suspect it isn't), but I know for certain those men won't cause grief again.