Dearborn school district now offering students 100% Halal menu

Page 7 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
That’s where it gets tricky because kosher or halal just require basic rules for handling. These basic rules tend to be followed in our modern times because it’s basic hygiene type stuff with some simple respect to the animal.
Most is handled before the food is prepped. No prayer required, if there comes a point where prayer is required while inside the school that’s totally different. I’m not talking about a kid who has a moment of silence or whatever, I’m talking about a teacher leading all the kids.
Also there could be problems in the future if the atheist mix of employees gets messy.

Well, even aside from the iffy-religion in school argument... I also just don't like the concept of a government that is pricing out any competition... on the basis of religion. I feel government should be agnostic to whatever competition is in the market of making school meals.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
This is already the situation that exists. Plenty of schools have time set aside during the day for voluntary prayer if kids decide to engage in it.
That is why I made the distinction of faculty led. There is a fine balance between accomodation and endorsement.

I blame the atheists who ruined it for everyone.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,245
16,716
136
Well, even aside from the iffy-religion in school argument... I also just don't like the concept of a government that is pricing out any competition... on the basis of religion. I feel government should be agnostic to whatever competition is in the market of making school meals.

That’s cool with me, just remember this goes further than school.
People in he Military, Jurors at Jury Duty, people in VA care or hospitals.

These discussions are great when fear is left out because there is no on answer that satisfies everyone.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
And if a school principal were to lead the student body in a voluntary prayer before lunch to give thanks for the food, I am sure there would be an abundance of raging concern.
Good thing then that this does not involve any school leaders leading any student bodies in any voluntary prayers.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Victorian Gray

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
It hasn't been established that there _are_ any Sikhs in those schools or even in the area that might attend those schools. So it could very well be a non-issue (I suspect it is, but can't know for sure).

Ultimately, though, surely the reality is that 'rights' apply to those with the power to demand them _and_ also the strength-of-feeling to care to do so? It's a fiction that 'rights' are inalienable and 'natural' - they usually need to be fought for. It's not a 'right' if you don't actually care enough to demand it and cause trouble for those that would deny it.

The more difficult issue, for me when this issue arose here (in schools in areas with a lower proportion of Muslims than Dearborn), is how seriously to take objections from those of a Christian heritage. How much is that a genuinely deeply-held identity-based objection to eating food blessed by another religion, and how much is it motivated by an essentially political agenda? Especially when you are talking about people who don't really pay much more than lipservice to religion anyway, and are functionally non-believers. And should political ideology be treated differently from religion anyway?

Same thing applies in cases where certain Muslims have demanded ever-more 'modest' dress codes for schoolgirls, even when compared to what other Muslims are happy with. Is that religon or politics?


10% of the population there are Hindus. Hindus absolutely do not believe in Allah, but I do not think they will raise a stink about this issue. Now definitely a subset of Hindus are Sikhs and i believe it is a requirement that food has to be non halal.

There is also lately been a huge scandal in India where MacDonalds in now 100% halal . This is in a country where 80% are Hindus.

Same goes with Australia and the UK
The UK with 4-6% Muslim population has majority of meat slaughtered in Halal fashion. Over time , if I am a non special (christian or Jewish), I am denied job opportunities and this just exacerbates over time.

 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
I just re-read the article and I quite frankly am alarmed and perplexed why this subject was so blown up!
The article itself is touting having better more nutritious meals for the students! Where as previously they bought stuff already prepared!
The article says nothing about anything religious!! It does not say anything about religion being pushed on the children!
Anycody can eat halal prepared foods and not have to say anything religious such as aprayer!
Also I am suprisede that the OP didn`t harp on religious discrimination concerning people hired to perform halal......
Halal can only be performed by a Muslim man. Thus, non-Muslims are automatically denied employment at a Halal firm.

In fact I would we have a false concern over nothing more than the OP looking to create an issue out of thin air@@@!@!!

JY, all i have been carping out since my OP is that non muslims are denied employment. On the basis of logistics and other MBA words thrown in, over time, regular butchers are just deemed non Halal and thus taken out of business.

i was then told that people of the book are allowed to slaughter but again they have to utter the phrase bismillah so I am very doubtful if less than a token percentage are folks of other faiths at these abattoirs.

My main grouse is government funds are going towards ensuring that only certain sects can gain employment and will eliminate non christian/muslim butchers in a few years. it is a tyranny of the minority.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
Well, even aside from the iffy-religion in school argument... I also just don't like the concept of a government that is pricing out any competition... on the basis of religion. I feel government should be agnostic to whatever competition is in the market of making school meals.

The government's primary concern in this case should be to provide food that meets the dietary needs of its students. If a large majority of its students have dietary restrictions related to their religion the government is responding to the needs to its constituents, not pricing out competition on the basis of religion. As for first amendment issues here do you think Dearborn is buying halal food to promote Islam or is it buying the food because that's what the kids will eat?

Think of the alternative - if the government in this case has to be blind to the fact that its students can't eat a significant portion of the food it buys should it pretend not to know this and just waste taxpayer money on useless food? No one can seriously think that's the right answer.
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
And I'm quite willing to wager that if the word Kosher had been substituted for Halal in the original raging rant by the OP, there would never have been a raging rant by the OP. Just sayin'......

If it was 100% Kosher I would be 100% against it.If i cannot get a job at these butcher while they get govt funds, I am against it , period. Thanks for imagining what goes on in my mind. Great whatabouttery right there.
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
70,210
28,912
136
The government's primary concern in this case should be to provide food that meets the dietary needs of its students. If a large majority of its students have dietary restrictions related to their religion the government is responding to the needs to its constituents, not pricing out competition on the basis of religion. As for first amendment issues here do you think Dearborn is buying halal food to promote Islam or is it buying the food because that's what the kids will eat?

Think of the alternative - if the government in this case has to be blind to the fact that its students can't eat a significant portion of the food it buys should it pretend not to know this and just waste taxpayer money on useless food? No one can seriously think that's the right answer.
The actual alternative is to simply accommodate the religious needs of students who can't eat halal meat. The only issue I see with what the school district is doing is that they claim 100% of the meat will be halal. If halal meat is simply the default meat with other options available to students who can't eat halal, then life is good.

Cirrocco: I understand your point about discrimination against butchers who can't produce halal meat. Where I think it is somewhat weak is that the Muslim students who only eat halal meat were never going to be a market for those butchers anyway. If the schools provide non-halal meat, those students wouldn't be eating it so the market for non-halal meat that you are considering is much smaller than the overall school lunch market. Where students who are halal-indifferent are now eating halal meat, your point has merit as this is a market lost to butchers who cannot produce halal meat.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: pcgeek11
Feb 4, 2009
35,245
16,716
136
If it was 100% Kosher I would be 100% against it.If i cannot get a job at these butcher while they get govt funds, I am against it , period. Thanks for imagining what goes on in my mind. Great whatabouttery right there.

I suspect that person doesn’t exist because to my understanding if you were baptized or became an adult in whatever ceremony from any Old Testament bible type religion you are set to work there.
Honestly I’m not sure how they even ask their potential employees other than some exception for things like Christian charities and such.
If you are that guy or want to be that guy and we’re turned away from a job then hire a lawyer and sue.
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,245
16,716
136
The actual alternative is to simply accommodate the religious needs of students who can't eat halal meat. The only issue I see with what the school district is doing is that they claim 100% of the meat will be halal. If halal meat is simply the default meat with other options available to students who can't eat halal, then life is good.

Cirrocco: I understand your point about discrimination against butchers who can't produce halal meat. Where I think it falls apart is that the Muslim students who only eat halal meat were never going to be a market for those butchers anyway. If the schools provide non-halal meat, the those students wouldn't be eating it so the market for non-halal meat that you are considering is much smaller than the overall school lunch market. Where students who are halal-indifferent are now eating halal meat, your point has merit as this is a market lost to butchers who cannot produce halal meat.

I think it’s a safe assumption that if someone could not comply with the food they’re getting a special meal made. I also suspect if someone follows a faith that is super strict about who prepares what and what food they are probably used to bringing their own lunch.
True for the halal folks too. If there are two or three students I’d like to think the school and the catering company could figure out a way to provide acceptable meals to those two or three students. Even if it’s something simple like we keep some frozen meals and an “approved” person heats them up if needed.
How hard could it be to keep a few cans of soup and approved cheese around for a grilled cheese.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
31,441
9,343
136
10% of the population there are Hindus. Hindus absolutely do not believe in Allah, but I do not think they will raise a stink about this issue. Now definitely a subset of Hindus are Sikhs and i believe it is a requirement that food has to be non halal.

There is also lately been a huge scandal in India where MacDonalds in now 100% halal . This is in a country where 80% are Hindus.

Most Indian Hindus are vegetarians so they ain't eating the meat whether its halal or not!
Same goes with Australia and the UK
The UK with 4-6% Muslim population has majority of meat slaughtered in Halal fashion.

I'm sure all the massive amounts of pork produce that we eat in the UK is totally Halal! :rolleyes:
 

whm1974

Diamond Member
Jul 24, 2016
9,436
1,567
126
While Sikhs don't eat Halal meat due to the way the animal is killed they are still be
I suspect that person doesn’t exist because to my understanding if you were baptized or became an adult in whatever ceremony from any Old Testament bible type religion you are set to work there.
Honestly I’m not sure how they even ask their potential employees other than some exception for things like Christian charities and such.
If you are that guy or want to be that guy and we’re turned away from a job then hire a lawyer and sue.
What is exactly is a Butcher anyway? The way I understand the job of a butcher is to simply to cut the meat off the once it is kill, but it not the the butcher that does the actually killing. What is the person who actually kills the animal called?

So for meat to be considered Halal, do the people doing the butchering also have to be People of the Book?
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,616
4,705
136
If it was 100% Kosher I would be 100% against it.If i cannot get a job at these butcher while they get govt funds, I am against it , period. Thanks for imagining what goes on in my mind. Great whatabouttery right there.


So, were you fired for not being Muslim or for stealing office supplies?

-Asking for friend.
 

jmagg

Platinum Member
Nov 21, 2001
2,099
403
126
The halal meat is not reserved for only Muslims. For those who want to eat the meat and aren't Muslims, have at it.....you won't be harmed either way. Congrats!

Bacon: no, they should be steadfastly serving bacon to all students no matter what, because a school district wasting money is important in the fight for separation of Islam and state. It's the fiscally responsible and morally just thing to do.

One could certainly turn your entire àrguement around, which would make more sense. Serve nutritious meals and leave religion at home.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,634
8,522
136
10% of the population there are Hindus. Hindus absolutely do not believe in Allah, but I do not think they will raise a stink about this issue. Now definitely a subset of Hindus are Sikhs and i believe it is a requirement that food has to be non halal.

There is also lately been a huge scandal in India where MacDonalds in now 100% halal . This is in a country where 80% are Hindus.

Same goes with Australia and the UK
The UK with 4-6% Muslim population has majority of meat slaughtered in Halal fashion. Over time , if I am a non special (christian or Jewish), I am denied job opportunities and this just exacerbates over time.


Regarding the bit in bold, I'd be surprised if the offical figures treated Sikhs as a 'subset' of Hinduism. They are different religions. Also bit irritating you 'believe' that is a requreiment, given that I posted that point in the first place! It certainly came up as an issue over here, with Halal in schools.

India, well, that's a whole different topic, rather a big one. Modi seems to be cut from similar cloth to Trump.

The spread of Halal is partly just about economics - suppliers sometimes choose to go with Halal meat because that can be cheaper, because of economies of scale in the global market.

What I don't get is your emphasis on the job market for slaughterhouse workers. That really doesn't seem like a major issue to me. Is that really a major source of employment? What's more interesting is the question of identity and religion when it comes to consuming the stuff. But it's still being overblown, for political reasons.

 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
One could certainly turn your entire àrguement around, which would make more sense. Serve nutritious meals and leave religion at home.

Are you saying that the school district should not be responsive to the dietary restrictions of their students?
 
Feb 4, 2009
35,245
16,716
136
While Sikhs don't eat Halal meat due to the way the animal is killed they are still be

What is exactly is a Butcher anyway? The way I understand the job of a butcher is to simply to cut the meat off the once it is kill, but it not the the butcher that does the actually killing. What is the person who actually kills the animal called?

So for meat to be considered Halal, do the people doing the butchering also have to be People of the Book?

To my amateur understanding whoever preps the food needs to follow the old book for kosher or halal
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
Most Indian Hindus are vegetarians so they ain't eating the meat whether its halal or not!


I'm sure all the massive amounts of pork produce that we eat in the UK is totally Halal! :rolleyes:

hehehe. Good one. :). I should have been more clear. i was talking about non pork meat. Lamb, Steak, Chicken

90% of my indian co workers eat at least chicken and lamb. Infact we go to a indian restaurant couple of times a month [This is SF bay area with lots of south asians] . They may have been raised Vegetarian but lot of them started eating chicken during high school.
A lot of them say they do not subscribe to the desert religions [their words] and halal is offensive to them. It's just that they do not have a option as most Indian restaurants only serve halal meat.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
31,441
9,343
136
hehehe. Good one. :). I should have been more clear. i was talking about non pork meat. Lamb, Steak, Chicken

90% of my indian co workers eat at least chicken and lamb. Infact we go to a indian restaurant couple of times a month [This is SF bay area with lots of south asians] . They may have been raised Vegetarian but lot of them started eating chicken during high school.
A lot of them say they do not subscribe to the desert religions [their words] and halal is offensive to them. It's just that they do not have a option as most Indian restaurants only serve halal meat.
Jhatka chicken and Halal chicken are killed in the same ways.

Plus if they aren't that fussy about where their meat is from or how its killed I'm curious as to why they find Halal offensive (jhatka slaughter is compatible with halal).
 

cirrrocco

Golden Member
Sep 7, 2004
1,952
78
91
Regarding the bit in bold, I'd be surprised if the offical figures treated Sikhs as a 'subset' of Hinduism. They are different religions. Also bit irritating you 'believe' that is a requreiment, given that I posted that point in the first place! It certainly came up as an issue over here, with Halal in schools.

India, well, that's a whole different topic, rather a big one. Modi seems to be cut from similar cloth to Trump.

The spread of Halal is partly just about economics - suppliers sometimes choose to go with Halal meat because that can be cheaper, because of economies of scale in the global market.

What I don't get is your emphasis on the job market for slaughterhouse workers. That really doesn't seem like a major issue to me. Is that really a major source of employment? What's more interesting is the question of identity and religion when it comes to consuming the stuff. But it's still being overblown, for political reasons.

My point of contention is govt funds going to basically drying up a source of employment for non' people of book' butchers. Knowing how companies operate, over time, for sake of scale and efficiency more and more of the cities slaughterhouses become 100% halal. This will lead to loss of jobs directly on account of the county policy.

It's like someone in the Utah govt establishing a rule that only contractors with majority Mormon employees being able to bid on govt contracts. Over time, you will see that all the vendors will only start employing Mormons. This is the slow process of government subsidized religious bigorty that I am afraid of.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
Physical restrictions yes, religious restrictions is more a choice that can be mitigated at home.

So you are saying that Dearborn should ignore the religious demographics of their student body and either purchase food they know the children won't eat or effectively cancel student lunch entirely, both of which would have significant health effects on their student body? Why is that a good idea?