Dear God in Heaven Help Us......

[Smaulz]

Link

 

[busmaster11]

I thought nambla was some gay think South PArk made up... I can't believe some obvious pedo-promoting bunk like thi is allowed to exist...

I can't believe there are people out there advocating the freedom to establish something like this...

 

[fatalbert]

very sad.

what is happening here in Boston is tragic

 

[PsychoAndy]

i think south park found it and decided to spoof it accordingly

 

[Ameesh]

<< Ford, who says Shanley repeatedly raped him in the 1980s, also alleges that Cardinal Bernard Law allowed the priest to remain as pastor at St. John the Evangelist Parish in Newton until 1989, despite knowledge of his behavior. >>







i would be soo banned if i said anything in this thread that i felt. so i will leave it see i told you so!

 

[mithrandir2001]

No surprise here. Priests are human like anybody else who has ever walked the face of our earth. Just because they wear special outfits and preach about "values" doesn't mean you should assume they are right when they talk about how to live your life. Question religious institutions and their people...don't place them on a pedestal and kneal and bow. Assert your dignity and be a skeptic.

 

[Ameesh]

<< No surprise here. Priests are human like anybody else who has ever walked the face of our earth. >>



thats no excuse, and when the cardinal found out about it and didnt say or do anything.

 

[tcsenter]

And yet people continue to defend the Catholic Church when it has consistently shown it values pedophile Priests and the Church's 'infallible' image over the safety and well-being of children. Another instance of an "institution" becoming more important than its mission.

Oh well, I've believe for years the Catholic Church was nothing more than one of the most successful money-making enterprises in history. Now that this scandal threatens what the Church REALLY gives a damn about - money - we'll see the Church take some deceptively 'effective' measures. It was ok that hundreds if not thousands of children had been victimized, that wasn't cause enough for the Church to implement 'change'. But, threaten to reduce their donor and tithing parishoner base, OH MY THEY'RE CONCERNED NOW!

 

[controversial]

<< No surprise here. Priests are human like anybody else who has ever walked the face of our earth. Just because they wear special outfits and preach about "values" doesn't mean you should assume they are right when they talk about how to live your life. Question religious institutions and their people...don't place them on a pedestal and kneal and bow. Assert your dignity and be a skeptic. >>



Funny, thats exactly what my church teaches. (I'm Eastern Orthodox Christian)

 

[mithrandir2001]

<<

<< No surprise here. Priests are human like anybody else who has ever walked the face of our earth. >>



thats no excuse, and when the cardinal found out about it and didnt say or do anything. >>


I'm not making excuses. I'm saying that priests are fallible but some believers seem to place priests and clergy on a higher level...like they are special, righteous and stewards of proper living. I regard them basically as employees of a religious corporation who are susceptible to criminal behavior just like individuals in traditional private enterprise. They committed crimes and should be regarded as criminals. The cardinals and bishops, too, should have charges brought against them, if they covered up the illegal behavior to protect their religious corporation. Being a "holy man" is no defense for illegal behavior.

Imagine if these priests were middle managers and the cardinals and bishops were executive management at a large multi-national corporation and they acted and said the same things. Arthur Andersen is getting demolished because of the actions of a few errant financial "professionals", but this church sex scandal is far more repulsive and widespread through the ranks, yet the church corporation will likely survive. Dual standard.

 

[Optimus]

Well, another Catholic Church thread... (Hey look! Its Optimus, AT's resident Catholic! )

First, this scandal is HORRIBLE... probably the most damage done to the Church since the last great scandal (Selling of Indulgences).

What do both have in common?

1) Some BAD clergy running amok. Priests are human and there are some (a small percentage) that are capable of great evil. Its a terrible and sad thing...

2) Some VERY lousy decisions and actions by other clergy in positions of authority. There is NO excuse for the coverups and other terrible decisions by Cardinals and Bishops... and I personally feel that there was a LOt more that should have been done a long time ago!


BUT

There is also a lot of anger and misunderstanding being levelled that I'd like to address:

1) Does this negate Catholicism?

A/ No. 99% of clergy and the Pope himself could be totally EVIL and it would not negate the truth of Catholicism. If you have a beef with the Church, you must argue it against the FAITH of the church - the dogma and teachings. And those are not in question in these scandals.

FACT - Selling of indulgences and of course this pedophilia and rape/abuse are completely and utterly AGAINST Catholic faith.

2) So much for the "infallible" Church, huh?

A? Not really. You misunderstand Catholic faith - the Chruch is a seperate entity from the people that run it. The Church is not brick or mortar, nor is it the Pope or Bishops. The Church is Christ on earth... the Church is the faith he founded and the promises He made. It is his guide for us on earth - one which will always officially speak His truth. The gates of hell shall never prevail against it, no matter how bad it even gets on the inside!

Who/what is infallible then? The Dogma of the Church is. Dogma is only that which is spoken officially - ex cathedra - by the Pope. Outside of dogma, the Pope is as fallible as anyone. Don't bother asking him for tomorrow's lottery numbers...

Priests, Cardinals, Bishops, etc have no claim to infailliblity and never have made one.

3) The church just wants all the money, etc etc.

A/ This one is getting OLD.

1) Your Church ask for voluntary donations because taxes, food, heat, building repairs, candles, etc etc are NOT FREE. How on EARTH are churches supposed to exist?
2) The land and money the Church has is used for only the following:

a) Charities
b) Dispersed to Churches that need financial help
c) taking care of clergy, especially in retirement or ill health
d) missions and evangelization
e) building and repairing churches and cathedrals around the world.
f) Investing and saving for future needs (the Red Cross does this too - gasp!!!!)
g) Other expenses (lay(non-clergy) employees, etc)

For all those who think the Church is a giant money grab, let me pose this:

Who on earth in the Church is getting rich then?

Clergy cannot own ANYTHING -they take a vow of poverty for life.

If you were rich, what would you buy?

House? Clergy live in whatever house/building/etc they are given. Usually its a small house nearby. Its not thiers -they have to leave it if transferred. Often it is shared among several priests.
Cars? Ha ha ha... priests drive cars like 1991 Buicks. They only get issued a new one when the old one dies. Priority one is functionality. They share the car too.
Vacations to nice places? Hahahahaaha - they don't take them, unless you consider missions a "vacation".
Computers? Games? Clothes? - None none none.

Same way all the way up - even the Pope wears Doc Martins and what he is given to wear. He owns NOTHING. He eats simple meals.

While some higher up clergy could abuse money somewhat - get nicer meals, maybe wear nicer clothes under the robes... come on! Is that the lifestyle of the rich and famous? Besides, if caught they are in trouble with the Church.

So again my question - if the Church is one giant get rich quick sceme... exactly WHO is getting rich?


So it comes back to this. The scandal is about evil clergy covered up by some bad people in power. For every one abusing priest there are countless great ones. For every stupid coverup there are dozens of Cardinals and Bishops who did do the right thing as best they could.

But despite all this, none of this negates Caholic Faith.

 

[Murphyrulez]

<< exactly WHO is getting rich?


>>


The CHURCH is getting rich. The Vatican has like billions of dollars worth of treasures hidden in their vaults. How do you think they acquire these items? WHY do you think they acquire these items?

The Pope is like your uncle the hermit that nobody talks about. He has 4 million dollars hidden under his mattress, but he still digs through the trash for empty pop cans.

 

[mithrandir2001]

You can always rely on Optimus to knock out his extensive arguments. Let me address at least one point.


<< 2) So much for the "infallible" Church, huh?

A? Not really. You misunderstand Catholic faith - the Chruch is a seperate entity from the people that run it. The Church is not brick or mortar, nor is it the Pope or Bishops. The Church is Christ on earth... the Church is the faith he founded and the promises He made. It is his guide for us on earth - one which will always officially speak His truth. The gates of hell shall never prevail against it, no matter how bad it even gets on the inside!
>>


I won't necessary argue over "truths"; however, I think this scandal demonstrates, again, the trouble with religious institutions/corporations. The Catholic faith is a concept, but the brick & mortar Church is a corporation in the business of selling services; in this case, the promise of everlasting life if you act and live a certain way. Sure, they may not have a profit-loss statement like a traditional private business would but they add a layer of distortion between an individual and spirituality. Organized religion gets in the way of spirituality because creeds are rigid and static whereas an individual may find themselves on an everchanging personal journey to understand and perceive the spiritual, if they think there is anything to understand or perceive at all.

If a supernatural realm exists, then introducing a formal organization of humans to package a faith system into a "product" is recipe for disaster, especially if this product, in essence, reprograms people to act in fell ways. I look at 9/11 and see unnecessary and horrid death and destruction in the name of religious product. There is absolutely no justification at all for what the terrorists did, but in their eyes, they think they are acting righteous and holy and will live forever more in utopia! Organized religion terrifies me. The Catholic faith may very well preach tolerance and love for all men, but it seems many so-called Christians espouse hate toward others because of how their religious institutions teach their faith. These brick & mortars add distortion to the message. You add a human element and an agenda and the result is suspect, particularly for something as subjective as spirituality.

Some defend the Cathloic church by saying that it does so many "good things". Well, Enron served good economic purpose when it was solvent, but it broke the law just like these various clergymen did. People assume that if the church did not exist, things would be worse. But we have clearly demonstrated that secular forms of charity are entirely feasible and essential. If the money a family paid to the church was redirected to secular charities, I'd venture that more of society's problems would be reduced.

 

[docmanhattan]

I see smoldering, fiery pits of sulfur in the eternal future for some of those misguided clergy.

 

[Ameesh]

As far as the Catholic faith goes, the church and the faith are not two seprate things, it was designed to be that you had to go through the church to be able to be a practisicng catholic, your link to god is through the chruch. You have confession and you have the hierarchy of priests which lead all the way up to the pope who is the closest to god.

thats half the reason why there are protestants around.

Also the cardinal let this go through, for all we know he could have been the next pope. Its obvious that people dont hold each other to any paticular standards

 

[docmanhattan]

<< As far as the Catholic faith goes, the church and the faith are not two seprate things, it was designed to be that you had to go through the church to be able to be a practisicng catholic, your link to god is through the chruch. You have confession and you have the hierarchy of priests which lead all the way up to the pope who is the closest to god.

thats half the reason why there are protestants around.

Also the cardinal let this go through, for all we know he could have been the next pope. Its obvious that people dont hold each other to any paticular standards >>

It just boggles my mind as to how on God's green earth these people could've justified defiling those children. There's absolutely nothing religious or otherwise that condones that behavior and yet it went on for so long. I see the whole debacle as a hit more to the Catholic leaders than the members of the Catholic faith. IMHO the Church members are the real Church, the body of God; not the corporate structure that's been built over the centutries. Right now there seems to be no reason to trust the leadership of the Catholic Church.

 

[Optimus]

<< The CHURCH is getting rich. The Vatican has like billions of dollars worth of treasures hidden in their vaults. How do you think they acquire these items? WHY do you think they acquire these items?
The Pope is like your uncle the hermit that nobody talks about. He has 4 million dollars hidden under his mattress, but he still digs through the trash for empty pop cans. >>



Thats your explanation? That it is some sort of mass-psychosis, some kind of obsessive compulsive behavior carried out by thousands and thousands of clergy - to collect money that they can't have or use?

Come on.

The Vatican aquires art and religious items (these millions of dollars you speak of) through the fact that they are donated. They are then dealt with as best seen fit (some are sold, some are displayed, some are kept for future needs).


Mithrandir2001:



<< I won't necessary argue over "truths"; however, I think this scandal demonstrates, again, the trouble with religious institutions/corporations. The Catholic faith is a concept, but the brick & mortar Church is a corporation in the business of selling services; in this case, the promise of everlasting life if you act and live a certain way. Sure, they may not have a profit-loss statement like a traditional private business would but they add a layer of distortion between an individual and spirituality. >>


There is no "selling" involved - you could be a faithful Catholic all your life without giving the Church a dime, although why would you not help support the Church?
Again - who is making all this "money"? No one is! Clergy are poor by vow - all the way to the top. I once got an inside look at the lifestyle of the Pope. On the outside there is splendor - the robes and the Vatican itself. To him, he lives a completely simple life. This is what EVERY clergyman in the Church is supposed to do!


<< Organized religion gets in the way of spirituality because creeds are rigid and static whereas an individual may find themselves on an everchanging personal journey to understand and perceive the spiritual, if they think there is anything to understand or perceive at all. If a supernatural realm exists, then introducing a formal organization of humans to package a faith system into a "product" is recipe for disaster, especially if this product, in essence, reprograms people to act in fell ways. I look at 9/11 and see unnecessary and horrid death and destruction in the name of religious product. There is absolutely no justification at all for what the terrorists did, but in their eyes, they think they are acting righteous and holy and will live forever more in utopia! Organized religion terrifies me. >>



But here is where that argument doesn't hold up - if there is one solid TRUTH - a real WAY, a plan God has, then it would be a definite and real thing. Not changing and all over the place - it would exist as God does - unchanging and constant.

To leave it up to every individual to try to find that truth alone, without any more guidance than the interpreted scripture, would be utter chaos. It IS utter chaos - look at all the religions in the world!

But if God DOES have a real path, wouldn't he make it clear -as in setup a Church on earth to remain as a guide to the path. He would have to keep that Church infaillble in its core teachings (the Pope), and the Church would need active members that passed along and taught that teaching (clergy). It just makes sense.

Yes - being run by man it would be prone to scandals like this in its members, and bad clergy, etc - but you would ALWAYS be able to return to the dogma to see the real path.

That is the heart and soul of the Church.


<< The Catholic faith may very well preach tolerance and love for all men, but it seems many so-called Christians espouse hate toward others because of how their religious institutions teach their faith. These brick & mortars add distortion to the message. You add a human element and an agenda and the result is suspect, particularly for something as subjective as spirituality. >>


Again - humans are flawed and chaotic in nature - even in the Church. But dogma is not. It is unwavering, unchanged, and imutable.

How else could God ever reveal and continue to provide each generation with a clear path to Him? He would have to use us, flawed as we are.


<< Some defend the Cathloic church by saying that it does so many "good things". Well, Enron served good economic purpose when it was solvent, but it broke the law just like these various clergymen did. People assume that if the church did not exist, things would be worse. But we have clearly demonstrated that secular forms of charity are entirely feasible and essential. If the money a family paid to the church was redirected to secular charities, I'd venture that more of society's problems would be reduced. >>


The Church does do many good things. So does the Red Cross. Enron did very little good and a whole lotta bad - not the same at all.
But we digress into what people in the Church do here, rather than the nature of the Church itself.


Ameesh:



<< As far as the Catholic faith goes, the church and the faith are not two seprate things, it was designed to be that you had to go through the church to be able to be a practisicng catholic, your link to god is through the chruch. You have confession and you have the hierarchy of priests which lead all the way up to the pope who is the closest to god. >>


The Church and faith ARE the same in the sense that they are inseperable - one exists because of the other. The "Church" as in "Actions by people in the Church" is NOT the same - thats the heart of this scandal's impact.


<< Also the cardinal let this go through, for all we know he could have been the next pope. Its obvious that people dont hold each other to any paticular standards >>


I doubt that this Cardinal would have been Pope, but he well could have. There have been rotten Cardinals and a few rotten Popes - again, it does not invalidate Catholicism as the Church does not exist based on the actions of its members.



<< It just boggles my mind as to how on God's green earth these people could've justified defiling those children. There's absolutely nothing religious or otherwise that condones that behavior and yet it went on for so long. >>


No one can or could justify it - the people involved were simply WRONG. No one is denying this, or contesting it. What is in contest is whether these people's actions - people as high up as the top in some form or another - invalidate the Church. They do not.



<< I see the whole debacle as a hit more to the Catholic leaders than the members of the Catholic faith. IMHO the Church members are the real Church, the body of God; not the corporate structure that's been built over the centutries. Right now there seems to be no reason to trust the leadership of the Catholic Church. >>



Here is how a good Catholic is supposed to trust the Church hierarchy: That the Pope speaking ex cathedra is the voice of truth. That is all.

Clergy (other than the Pope when speaking ex cathedra) are simply teachers. There are thousands of them.
A very few, including some of the high up ones, are involved in this mess.


People - Think of it like a school:

You have professors and faculty all the way up to the President. A scandal comes out where there were a very few teachers were pedophiles. This is terrible. To make it worse, some faculty cover it up! The president himself suspects these coverups, but is tied by the problems with accusations and proof. Perhaps there was more he could do, and there was certain evil doing by the faculty and profs involved directly!

Note - all the abuse and coverups are COMPLETELY against the rules of the school.

So this scandal comes out. Those involved are in BIG trouble.

Now does this scandal make the school as a whole, with all the good faculty and staff and students - invalid? More importantly, does everything the school taught become untrue?

 

[Shaftatplanetquake]

JEBUS!

 

[Murphyrulez]

<< Now does this scandal make the school as a whole, with all the good faculty and staff and students - invalid? More importantly, does everything the school taught become untrue?

<<

I don't know, but I don't think I'd send my kids there. And that's the whole point with the child abuse problem, not the fact that the Catholic faith maybe perfectly fine, but that people don't trust the employees.

<edit> added second line </edit>

 

[mithrandir2001]

<< Again - who is making all this "money"? No one is! Clergy are poor by vow - all the way to the top. I once got an inside look at the lifestyle of the Pope. On the outside there is splendor - the robes and the Vatican itself. To him, he lives a completely simple life. This is what EVERY clergyman in the Church is supposed to do! >>


I call the church a corporation not necessarily because it out for profits, but because it is an organization with clearly defined assets and liabilities and requires cash flow to operate. It is a business who is interested in acquiring more "market share" to increase its influence. Why did they cover up the scandals? Because they were concerned about their "business" (meaning, their influence) even though we know it was against their faith. Perhaps my view is cynical, but that's the proper economic perspective.


<< But if God DOES have a real path, wouldn't he make it clear -as in setup a Church on earth to remain as a guide to the path. He would have to keep that Church infaillble in its core teachings (the Pope), and the Church would need active members that passed along and taught that teaching (clergy). It just makes sense. >>


But that's a big If. I don't perceive a real path. I don't perceive any notions or feelings of God's existence. In terms of clarity, I see a universe with some natural order but a lot of haphazard chaos. We reside on a mediocre planet in a mediocre solar system located in a mediocre location of a mediocre galaxy. There's nothing special or divine about Man's existence here. We are important, but that's because we the most advance species we know of at this point.

Traditional faith systems seem way too simplistic, far-fetched and "packaged" for my approval. I have yet to encounter one that mimicks the way I see, feel and perceive the world. That's why I am an atheist. I am a non-believer for I have not witnessed anything of the supernatural that appears worthy of belief.


<< People - Think of it like a school: >>


I suppose the difference here is that the church is in the business of "selling" morality and things that aren't even verifiable. That's a big difference than teaching people their ABC's and 123's. People put their faith, blind faith - and to an atheist like me, silly blind faith - in an institution that has been exposed to have major fissures in its foundation. As an outsider, I just don't understand it. My father was an altar boy in the 1950s. At that time, if he claimed to have been victimized, precious few people would have believed him. It's a kid versus the holy priest, who has sworn his life to faith. Mercifully, times change and we are now seeing the fallout from years of neglect and denial. Maybe some eyes will open and people won't be so willing to jump head-first into what the brick & mortar church says.

 

[docmanhattan]

Optimus.

Running with the analogy:

I'm not saying that the teachings are invalid. Far from it. However, regardless of how many good teachers there are, if any one of them knew and did not come forward, those people are almost as guilty as the transgressors. And while they may be sparkling good teachings, their credibility will be worthless if they withheld information because they were worried about how it would reflect on the school as a whole.

Does this mean you need to get rid of all teachers? No. But there's needs to be a serious shake-down of the hierarchy to flush out that sort of evil. This isn't just an embarassing incident that can be explained away as there being "bad apples" and telling people this "won't happen again." I'm not saying I have any better solution or an alternative. In fact, I'm pretty clueless in that regard. The only thing I can say is that there needs to be real serious rethinking of the roles and necessity of such a complex hierarchy. But part of that stems from the fact that I believe that the Christian experience is between God and His people, not God to His leadership and then to His people.

 

[docmanhattan]

<snip>

I was thinking about it some more and it occurs to that it's not for me to shake a finger at the Catholic leadership, that's God's job. It just gets me so upset thinking about the trust that was betrayed by those men.

oh well...

 

[CTweak]

Don't think that it's just the Catholic Church that suffers this problem - people of responsibility in all religions have and are abusing their positions. The Catholic's are getting alot of attention due to their size, but this problem has reared it's head in a lot of religions.

 

[Optimus]

Murphyrulz:


<< I don't know, but I don't think I'd send my kids there. And that's the whole point with the child abuse problem, not the fact that the Catholic faith maybe perfectly fine, but that people don't trust the employees. >>


Thats the worst part, is how much it scares people. I certainly would not trust a priest I didn;t know to be alone with my kids either anymore - it is terribly sad, but there are few people in the world period I trust and no one occupation, no matter how good they should be.

Sick sad world we live in.

Mithrandir2001, Doc - I can totally respect both of your opinions.

Mithrandir: That big if is indeed a big one - and certainly a difference of belief between you and me. We can't really get into it too deply without steering this thread into NART territory...

And I understand your misgivings - it is VERY hard to seperate everything and figure out what is real, what is fluff, what is concrete, and what is truth.


Doc: The school would need to do the same thing as the Church now does - radically and completely change the way it handles these things so that it can never happen again - and certainly never be swept under the rug.
But as for re-thinking the existance of clergy, well - the world still needs teachers in the faith and then we also have sacraments, which is a whole nuther kettle of fish.


Cheers guys!

-Optimus