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ch33zw1z

Lifer
Nov 4, 2004
30,902
9,710
146
Yeah, that was expectedly over the top. The problem is that nothing substantial would change under Hillary as she's part of the problem class economically and politically. She won the popular vote but Trump even with Russian support should have been crushed. The powers that be backed Hillary and she had to be the candidate that lost.

I'm with Russel Brand. Here he with the "conventional wisdom" people arguing about surface issues and he goes to the heart of the problem. Damn I'm a radical :D

I tend to agree. The problem I have is how many people would simply write off a candidate offering realistic opportunity and assistance for ordinary Americans simply because they have a letter D next to their name. Trading that in for an easy and rewarding emotional hatred for others that don't conform to their mental picture of what a "worthy american" or a "worthy human" is general is.
 
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Jhhnn

No Lifer
Nov 11, 1999
61,121
13,062
136
Yeah, that was expectedly over the top. The problem is that nothing substantial would change under Hillary as she's part of the problem class economically and politically. She won the popular vote but Trump even with Russian support should have been crushed. The powers that be backed Hillary and she had to be the candidate that lost.

I'm with Russel Brand. Here he with the "conventional wisdom" people arguing about surface issues and he goes to the heart of the problem. Damn I'm a radical :D

When you say nothing would have changed with Hillary I take it you mean nothing would have changed for the worse.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
I really hope she runs again (or Clinton 2.0 - Warren). I think Trump would only win bigger than he did in 2016 against either of them.*


*So long as the Trump economy keeps doing well.
While moving would be problematic, if Trump and Hillary are the best we can do in 2020 then perhaps a nation that scores better in freedom would be better than No. 17, the US.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
998
126
While moving would be problematic, if Trump and Hillary are the best we can do in 2020 then perhaps a nation that scores better in freedom would be better than No. 17, the US.

I don't know what freedoms Trump has taken from you, but I guess you have to weigh the pros vs. the cons. Other than our insane drug laws, I wonder what glaring issues in this freedom test we had. I wonder how much of those issues Trump caused. Also wonder if tough on crime bills, like that BIll Clinton championed, harmed our score.
 
Feb 4, 2009
27,883
8,366
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I’ll admit I didn’t read the link.
Does anyone believe the current President will keep his mouth shut about stuff when he eventually leaves office?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
I don't know what freedoms Trump has taken from you, but I guess you have to weigh the pros vs. the cons. Other than our insane drug laws, I wonder what glaring issues in this freedom test we had. I wonder how much of those issues Trump caused. Also wonder if tough on crime bills, like that BIll Clinton championed, harmed our score.
The study took into account several factors and perhaps the one that would interest you was real upward mobility. The US has a myth about that, but in reality the chances of doing better than the economic class one was born in is less than it was, not very good. Cronyism is the main means of advancement, not merit. It can happen but don't bet on the illusion sold by those who control your fate and that's likely not you.

As far as "rights taken away" let's look at economic opportunity alone. Trump represents the failings of those who control the economy with the aim of making themselves first and consequently reinforces that behavior in others.

Regardless of what I think of any politician or party he represents himself first, those of the nature I've described second and all else a distant third.
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
998
126
The study took into account several factors and perhaps the one that would interest you was real upward mobility. The US has a myth about that, but in reality the chances of doing better than the economic class one was born in is less than it was, not very good. Cronyism is the main means of advancement, not merit. It can happen but don't bet on the illusion sold by those who control your fate and that's likely not you.

As far as "rights taken away" let's look at economic opportunity alone. Trump represents the failings of those who control the economy with the aim of making themselves first and consequently reinforces that behavior in others.

Regardless of what I think of any politician or party he represents himself first, those of the nature I've described second and all else a distant third.

What outside of one's own control prevents upward mobility for the average person? If someone works hard and makes responsible decisions I think it is hard to fail in America.

We just keep lowering the bar and making excuses for it.
 
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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
What outside of one's own control prevents upward mobility for the average person? If someone works hard and makes responsible decisions I think it is hard to fail in America.
Yet it is easier to succeed in the nations mentioned than here if one works hard. Note that most money comes from money. Trump lied about his "small loan" it turns out. $413 million in adjusted dollars means that he didn't have to be good and he wasn't. Remember this isn't my political or character assessment, this is his business record, with multiple bankruptcies and illegal activities to support them. I'm talking historical events, not "what if's". In this instance I'm referring to his NJ casino loan shens.

But away from him as an example let's look at the "too big to fail" debacle. The "best" were those who acted to profit themselves along with a handful at the top management level at the expense of the companies, shareholders and clients. It was brilliantly done I must say and catastrophe was avoided by us bailing them out. Meanwhile in Canada, people who made a fraction of the monies of the incompetent scoundrels in the US consistently outperformed us. The people in charge were wealthy, but not at anyone's cost but to their profit. They merited their positions without the traditional "cronies at any cost" philosophies found in the US and many other nations. The UK can be that way, with the right school tie and pedigree, so it's not just us. In any case we're at the low end of the first world because we have a construct passed on, a myth if you will, about how America is the land of opportunity. For a few, yes, that is true. In the meantime I refer you to the widening gap which really tells about how well Americans are doing on the whole.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,874
4,203
126
That's pre-tax income, obviously. She promised to change the after tax distribution of income & benefits.
People were promised chickens in pots. What has happened historically is that campaign promises are made and never kept even when Congress and the WH are of the same party. The same fundamental cause of income equality exist without being properly addressed and that's how it would have been. Everyone talks a good fight. Punching themselves and their friends in the face by doing something about it is another. In a society where economic inequality is a reality, her head would be on the metaphorical chopping block. Her friends in high society, the financial elite? They're not worried because they'll still pull the strings. Oh yes the Republicans want to openly accelerate the process and there's nothing good about that, but I'm going with your "not make things worse" and that is not good, just not as bad.

Before you hop on your gish or "you want people to not oppose Republicans" mantras stop before you get started.

At this moment in time the nation's old sick horse is out of the barn, the barn is on fire and there are two groups of people participating. One is trying to put out the fire and the other is dumping gas on it. I'm for putting it out. Assuming our side wins we are still short a horse and stuck with a barn in ruins. That's the best case after midterms. So what's the new horse and barn going to be? Something that works well and is sturdy, or find another old sick horse and beat up barn?

I'm for clearing out the dead burned timber and investing into something fundamentally better, which means adopting some radical but rationally constructed reforms. The Dem Party can be a part of that by getting new blood and new paradigms to work with or we can ignore lessons and play ignorant. Again, that's after midterms, but the Dems need to win big now.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
15,236
3,473
136
Oh come on....
If you google the Clinton's back in their early years, they looked quite the upcoming liberal couple.
Bill had the hippie look and Hillary the bra burner MS generation.
People forget that Hillary may be a hard sell, but once swallowed the first time the second time around she is quite palatable.
Take NY and the senate, Hillary was a hard sell originally yet elected, then the second time she easily won.
I think the fear of Hillary and the stigma is far greater than the actual Hillary, when given the chance.
If Hillary had been elected in 2016, even many republicans that hated her would have warmed up to her come 2020 and her re-election.
That's the thing about Hillary. people make a monster out of her, then warm up to her once they get past electing her.
She'd have been a tough cookie, and very popular for women, even republican women had she been given the chance.
I doubt she would have cuddled up to North Korea or Putin, but she'd have done us proud.
I absolutely believe Hillary would have been a much better president than Obama, and more determined world leader.
I doubt Donald Trump would have dared challenge Hillary in 2020, and we'd most likely never heard of Donald Trump ever again, at least in politics.
Give it up. You'll never overcome 25 years of innuendo and propaganda.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,493
3,254
126
Thats the core of it, and why you see someone like Slow and taj inject the notion that the left is the real racists, homophobics and generic bigots that is at the very essence of the hate culture that is "the right".
Its interference is right out of a 1935 nazi propaganda playbook.
Muslim ban.
Grab em by the pussy
Tansgender ban.
Pence as VP (hang all gay rethoric)
Both sides, good tiki torch people
Horseface
Bodyslammer
<endless list is endless>
In the face of all that, on the record, facts as a matter of reality as sure as gravity is a thing, they have the audacity to come to our faces and say : NO, YOU ARE THE RACIST.
It defies all logic and must leave you speechless for a second.. Its like holding the murder weapon while still in the chest of the victim and you go NAAAArH... YOU are the murderer. Or the adulterer caught in the act NOOOO this is not me fucking, it is you fucking.......
Is it the meth? These are broken people. If they were code I'd try and debug them.
It's not meth. It's Stockholm Syndrome. They believe they were deserving of the abuse they got as children and now believe nobody can be properly sane without being similarly abused. Hate is good and the truth because it is what makes you crack. They love to see torture and constantly feel like victims. You don't tell yourself you are as good as anybody else unless you feel worthless at an unconscious level. They are just as good as anybody else but they feel a lot worse because their pain is more deeply repressed.
 
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HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
25,065
9,939
136
You think our low unemployment, rising wages, strengthening middle class, increasing workforce participation, lower levels of illegal immigration, better trade deals with our neighbors, no unneeded foreign wars situation of today is a trainwreck? Well, as you said, you have no perspective as this is all you know. By your own admission you are ignorant and have no frame of reference, seeing as you've only been paying attention for less than two years. Yet you think you have an informed opinion and are in a position to judge. Fairly amazing, the smugness of the left today.
Rising wages huh? Instead of listening to Slow and Trump read for yourself. I think Slow can't read he just listens to Trump and parrots.
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/jan/30/donald-trump/us-finally-seeing-rising-wages-donald-trump-said/
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,493
3,254
126
I remember how fucked I used to feel about my slide into the have nots as wages fell behind the cost of living. It used to be that rage and fear made my life miserable. But now with Trump, while my economic situation remains the same, and the fear and rage are gone and I'm feeling much much better. Trump has assured me in a very convincing way and with deep sincerity that my life has changed course from getting worse to getting better. Who would have thought that all my life needed was a sympathetic magic attitude change. My life is fucked and I never have anything, but I'm making America Great Again. I may be a nobody, but now I feel important. I believe. I found the true religion and it works. I burnt the Trump brand into my brain and call it The Mark of the Best.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
26,975
763
126
What outside of one's own control prevents upward mobility for the average person? If someone works hard and makes responsible decisions I think it is hard to fail in America.

We just keep lowering the bar and making excuses for it.
Liberal politicians enable the entitlement mentality. We don't have competition anymore, but participation trophies. People aren't expected to earn what they have, according to some factions, but are somehow victims of this difficult life. Even worse, is that some people feel they are entitled to some of what I have earned. To them I say, if you are not limited to living off the safety net, due to some age related, or disability related issue, then if you want something, get off your ass and make it happen. People start with nothing everyday, eventually to become millionaires. The only limitations we have are what we are willing to do to achieve our goals. There is plenty of room at the top. People who complain, while eating doughnuts and sitting on their couches, haven't really earned the right to complain. They should just be grateful they have doughnuts, a couch and TV. lol
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
14,348
4,625
136
It's not meth. It's Stockholm Syndrome. They believe they were deserving of the abuse they got as children and now believe nobody can be properly sane without being similarly abused. Hate is good and the truth because it is what makes you crack. They love to see torture and constantly feel like victims. You don't tell yourself you are as good as anybody else unless you feel worthless at an unconscious level. They are just as good as anybody else but they feel a lot worse because their pain is more deeply repressed.
That sounds right!. I guess the question becomes, how do you show love to someone who spits in your face in return? Also, talk of love is surely a sign of ultimate weakness in many of these peoples minds.
To me the equation is ultimately pretty simple, if we dont find a way to fix our selves, this experiment, the double helix, is going to end right where it started. A blind man can see that. Is that what we want?
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
998
126
Liberal politicians enable the entitlement mentality. We don't have competition anymore, but participation trophies. People aren't expected to earn what they have, according to some factions, but are somehow victims of this difficult life. Even worse, is that some people feel they are entitled to some of what I have earned. To them I say, if you are not limited to living off the safety net, due to some age related, or disability related issue, then if you want something, get off your ass and make it happen. People start with nothing everyday, eventually to become millionaires. The only limitations we have are what we are willing to do to achieve our goals. There is plenty of room at the top. People who complain, while eating doughnuts and sitting on their couches, haven't really earned the right to complain. They should just be grateful they have doughnuts, a couch and TV. lol

To me it seems like most people I know that complain about how terrible everything is are the same people that refuse to leave their comfort zone and better themselves. Opportunity is often disguised as hard work.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
14,348
4,625
136
Liberal politicians enable the entitlement mentality. We don't have competition anymore, but participation trophies. People aren't expected to earn what they have, according to some factions, but are somehow victims of this difficult life. Even worse, is that some people feel they are entitled to some of what I have earned. To them I say, if you are not limited to living off the safety net, due to some age related, or disability related issue, then if you want something, get off your ass and make it happen. People start with nothing everyday, eventually to become millionaires. The only limitations we have are what we are willing to do to achieve our goals. There is plenty of room at the top. People who complain, while eating doughnuts and sitting on their couches, haven't really earned the right to complain. They should just be grateful they have doughnuts, a couch and TV. lol
Thats not "liberal policy".. There is good business in helping a man when he is down, the sooner he gets up he can be a productive member of society again. The whole victim cult is something of your creation.. cause I guess you need a boogeyman to single out, make fun of, hate, in an attempt to somehow feel better about yourselves. You guys are a cult.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
29,491
2,994
126
I'm for clearing out the dead burned timber and investing into something fundamentally better, which means adopting some radical but rationally constructed reforms. The Dem Party can be a part of that by getting new blood and new paradigms to work with or we can ignore lessons and play ignorant. Again, that's after midterms, but the Dems need to win big now.
On that note, I'll say that we'll never inspire people to vote Democrat with that dead burned timber. Trickle down has been crushing people regardless of who is President or in Congress these past 40 years. Can't tout an economy that's hurting people. They'll just turn away from us and towards their abuser.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
66,493
3,254
126
That sounds right!. I guess the question becomes, how do you show love to someone who spits in your face in return? Also, talk of love is surely a sign of ultimate weakness in many of these peoples minds.
To me the equation is ultimately pretty simple, if we dont find a way to fix our selves, this experiment, the double helix, is going to end right where it started. A blind man can see that. Is that what we want?
I think you are asking me to answer what to my mind is the most fundamental question there is. For that reason, the importance of the question itself, I feel I am not qualified to answer. I do not feel I have fixed myself to a degree that I can. All I can say that for me a few brief glimpses of a different conscious state I believe some have permanently achieved changed everything for me. My thoughts on ports of your question run like this:
Love is a God conscious state or a state of ultimate realization of our true nature, just empty words, I know. As such it is an outpouring, a rip in the fabric of reality that let's the light in. One becomes one facet of a multi billion faceted gem, a tiny exemplar of something infinite, a kind of one way conduit. Love just is and asks for nothing in return. It is a cornucopia that feed, a bounty without limits. The lover and the beloved are one and the same without separation. And since this was our birthright of which we were robbed and the state of potential we had with it was taken, having been made to feel unworthy of it, we now hate not only the thieves but that there was anything real that could have been taken.

I remember somebody else saying, we will wind up as ants in an ant heap or have a future so great none of us today can possibly imagine.

The problem, quite simply is that we don't know how we feel, don't want to know, and don't want to know we don't want to know. We are caught between our true nature that we deny but is real, and our belief that we are worthless and deserve to go extinct, a feeling we refuse to know we feel. New organs of perception develop with need so the closer we come to the realization of our own self generated destruction we become the more we will awaken. To me it looks like a race and your guess is as good as mine as to which side will win.

There are those who argue that the quality of human life is improving. But good news doesn't sell papers.
 

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