Taxes, I can understand because taxes vary by state. But processing fees are anywhere from $300 to $600, which is pretty sizable. The fee is predictable too. How is this legal? There ought to be a "transparent pricing law" forcing dealers to just roll this processing fee into the advertised purchase price.
Dealer hidden fees are bull
- Thread starter desura
- Start date
kitatech
Senior member
- Jan 7, 2013
- 484
- 3
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There are two fees that nearly all dealers do charge, even those with no "dealer fees"
1. title-registration fees within the state...$50
2. "out of state" registration companies...many dealers outsource registration of cars in any of the states beyond the border of the sale state....typically $150
1. title-registration fees within the state...$50
2. "out of state" registration companies...many dealers outsource registration of cars in any of the states beyond the border of the sale state....typically $150
taxes shouldn't be much of an issue. I know where I live, if you buy out of state, you pay tax when you get back to your home state to title it.
the fees, well, as long as you know up front what they will be, just factor them into the pricing. would be one of the first question I would ask.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I've started doing. It's kind of odd how many dealers don't get back to me after that.
Raizinman
Platinum Member
Keep in mind that EVERYTHING when you purchase a car is negotiable. Dealers like to play the 'add on various things'. You need to know the price you want to pay, let the dealer know that price and then he can decide to accept or not your offer. You don't have to play their game.
fleshconsumed
Diamond Member
- Feb 21, 2002
- 6,486
- 2,363
- 136
Meh, just negotiate Out the Door Price that includes all the fees and tax. All you need to do is provide the dealer with your address to calculate taxes and they will be able to give you out the door price. Of course many dealers will try to avoid giving out the door price for nefarious reasons, you just need to stand firm and insist that you will only negotiate on the out the door price.
slag
Lifer
- Dec 14, 2000
- 10,473
- 81
- 101
Where I live in Kansas that's how its done also, however, when I bought my truck in Texas, they said its their rule they have to collect sales tax there and then will either reimburse me actual tax difference or bill me if I owed more. I laughed, told them no way, and that I was not prepared to pay their taxes that day (The check I had from my lender was for actual amount they had previously told me in writing), and so they finally caved and I paid my taxes in Kansas.
Chess
Golden Member
- Mar 5, 2001
- 1,452
- 7
- 81
smart man...
dealers are fucking idiots for the most part....
The worst is seeing these HellCats for sale for 10-20k markup
1. Use an out the door price as your negotiation
2. Even though it is out the door price, you are still demanding an itemized price and fee list.
3. If the dealer doesn't want to do #1 and #2 as well insists on bullshit fees or unusually high fees, then find another dealer.
I live in Charlotte, NC... I have no shortage of same brand dealers to choose from. Even if I lived in the boonies, I'm pretty sure I could find another dealer within 1/2 hour drive of the closest one.
There is simply no excuse for a car buyer to tolerate or fall for this shit. I get that some people don't like to negotiate or have the skill, but there are plenty of dealers that are ethical and have good prices if you shop around.
2. Even though it is out the door price, you are still demanding an itemized price and fee list.
3. If the dealer doesn't want to do #1 and #2 as well insists on bullshit fees or unusually high fees, then find another dealer.
I live in Charlotte, NC... I have no shortage of same brand dealers to choose from. Even if I lived in the boonies, I'm pretty sure I could find another dealer within 1/2 hour drive of the closest one.
There is simply no excuse for a car buyer to tolerate or fall for this shit. I get that some people don't like to negotiate or have the skill, but there are plenty of dealers that are ethical and have good prices if you shop around.
SearchMaster
Diamond Member
- Jun 6, 2002
- 7,791
- 114
- 106
If people are paying it, what's the problem? It's not their fault Fiat/Chrysler underpriced their product is it?
HybridSquirrel
Diamond Member
- Nov 20, 2005
- 6,161
- 2
- 81
At least at the dealer I work for, we are selling new cars at our cost from the manufacturer. We make our money on manufacturing bonuses for selling X amount of car and the document fee. It can be negotiated, but usually not. However, at my dealer the document fee goes to your first year registration and safety inspection (2 years) so it's not a waste of money.
As a salesman, I make $50 per new car I sell the profit margins are ridiculously small. I make money on used cars and new car add-ons (please don't ever buy "paint sealant")
T2urtle
Diamond Member
- Oct 18, 2004
- 3,432
- 3
- 81
I'm 100% behind this. While i think its STUPID that people are paying X amount over MSRP for some cars, if you have people that pay who cares.
Honestly MOST of people who can afford to pay the premium for those cars probably isn't worried about little numbers like that. They can write it off or bill it to something.
A hellcat isn't for AVERAGE person (least i do think it is).
Dealership fees aren't exactly hidden. I can normally walk right up to someone and ask, they will tell you. Do i think its BS? Yes! Have i paid it on every car i bought at the dealership? Yes!
Pulsar
Diamond Member
- Mar 3, 2003
- 5,224
- 306
- 126
I'm of two minds when it comes to the markups. When the Ford GT (and later the 2007 Shelby Cobra early vin numbers) were released, dealerships snapped up the vehicles that weren't preordered. They created a market where you literally could NOT buy one without the markup, all because they are the dealer.
I won't call it collusion and price fixing, because I'm fairly sure that the dealers weren't discussing how to price it. But it definitely doesn't have a savory aroma. As long as the manufacturers allow it to happen though, it's all legal. So be smart and either pre-order or just wait until the prices drop.
I always explain to the salesman that any number we are discussing is the final, out the door number. Period. Fees included. Tell them that up front and it's not really a problem.
I won't call it collusion and price fixing, because I'm fairly sure that the dealers weren't discussing how to price it. But it definitely doesn't have a savory aroma. As long as the manufacturers allow it to happen though, it's all legal. So be smart and either pre-order or just wait until the prices drop.
I always explain to the salesman that any number we are discussing is the final, out the door number. Period. Fees included. Tell them that up front and it's not really a problem.
They can't keep up with demand due to the supercharger, the Co. that supplies it can only make so many and it's smart by them not to go nuts on extra tooling because when the demand eventually dies down that will be wasted $$. Dodge is also trying to help by shipping the most Hellcats to the dealers who move them out quickest. I've seen them in the Orlando FL market listed as high as $96K, at that price it sits on the lot for awhile, no one wants to get scalped $30K over MSRP.
squirrel dog
Diamond Member
- Oct 10, 1999
- 5,564
- 48
- 91
car commercials and lawyers make up a sizable portion of tv add revenue . So we're going to have to go ahead a charge you the 700 for the clear coat .
Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About a Dealer Doc Fee: https://www.cars.com/articles/2014/06/everything-you-ever-wanted-to-know-about-a-dealer-doc-fee/
In TN the dealer doc fee is $500. for new and used cars. TN has no cap on doc fees. They all charge the same amount and will not budge on it. They give you the lame excuse that if they drop it for you it will leave them open to a class action suit. This is total bs because TN has no dealer doc fee laws.
I purchased a used car from a TN dealer last year. After we negotiated the price he hit me with the $500 doc fee. I refused to pay. He called me a week later and offered to add it in and then take it off the negotiated price so it would appear that I paid it.
The bottom line is: "Even if a dealer won't budge on the fee, remember that the out-the-door price typically is negotiable."
In TN the dealer doc fee is $500. for new and used cars. TN has no cap on doc fees. They all charge the same amount and will not budge on it. They give you the lame excuse that if they drop it for you it will leave them open to a class action suit. This is total bs because TN has no dealer doc fee laws.
I purchased a used car from a TN dealer last year. After we negotiated the price he hit me with the $500 doc fee. I refused to pay. He called me a week later and offered to add it in and then take it off the negotiated price so it would appear that I paid it.
The bottom line is: "Even if a dealer won't budge on the fee, remember that the out-the-door price typically is negotiable."
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jdoggg12
Platinum Member
- Aug 20, 2005
- 2,685
- 11
- 81
I agree with everyone else, negotiate on the OTD price only. In no particular order, my general rules are:
- Negotiate on final, OTD price only. As stated above, this brings all the BS charges to light right in the beginning instead of them slapping you with them at signing time
- In the early stages, negotiate on a POTENTIAL intent to trade-in your current vehicle (they will usually be more flexible on new car price if they plan on raping you for your old car)
- Always be more excited about the car's nearest competitor - you're there just looking at options... it's not your first or second choice vehicle. It's only the allure of a deal that's keeping you from walking into the other dealer and buying there
- Come armed with information like truecar.com info. Don't flaunt it, but be prepared to negotiate/argue intelligently.
- Bring a friend/family member to play good/bad cop with. One of you should be fairly unimpressed with the car. Think of buying a car like swimming with sharks and excitement is blood. The frenzy starts when there's blood in the water and it only gets worse with more blood. Would you rather deal with a mellow shark or a frenzied, hungry beast
- (Early stage) Be prepared to walk away if you're not getting the deal you want. Even if that deal is ridiculous, unless it's a rare, special edition, or dwindling stock of previous year models then you'll always be able to come back and buy it later or cheaper somewhere else. Waiting for the new car sucks... but not nearly as much as buyer's remorse
- (Late stage) Once your're set on a vehicle you want and you're in the last round(s) of haggling, ask for a simple, itemized list of the prices, fees, and charges... everything that will be a part of the OTD price. Ask questions. You can still walk away until you sign and there's a chance you can take these numbers to another deal and ask what their fees/charges are for each line item.
- Least important but potentially helpful - develop a rapport with your sales person and the finance manager. You never know when you might run into a fellow Lambda Lambda Lambda alumni or your sister's best friend's dad. It might buy you some points off the top or a bonus 'gift' in the deal just by building some shared camaraderie. BE CAREFUL with this one, it's a double edged sword and, at the end of the day, you might have dropped YOUR guard and now it's their turn to spin your mutual love of My Little Pony into My Fatty Commission
Also, to the point of dealer markup... this is one of the bigger reasons why the laws forbidding manufacturers from going consumer direct is BS. This is scalping, pure and simple. If the mfgr under prices the car, fine, let the savvy consumers buy them up and resell them. It's BS that dealers can mark up a product before its ever even touched the general market. It's very similar to insider trading, IMO.
- Negotiate on final, OTD price only. As stated above, this brings all the BS charges to light right in the beginning instead of them slapping you with them at signing time
- In the early stages, negotiate on a POTENTIAL intent to trade-in your current vehicle (they will usually be more flexible on new car price if they plan on raping you for your old car)
- Always be more excited about the car's nearest competitor - you're there just looking at options... it's not your first or second choice vehicle. It's only the allure of a deal that's keeping you from walking into the other dealer and buying there
- Come armed with information like truecar.com info. Don't flaunt it, but be prepared to negotiate/argue intelligently.
- Bring a friend/family member to play good/bad cop with. One of you should be fairly unimpressed with the car. Think of buying a car like swimming with sharks and excitement is blood. The frenzy starts when there's blood in the water and it only gets worse with more blood. Would you rather deal with a mellow shark or a frenzied, hungry beast
- (Early stage) Be prepared to walk away if you're not getting the deal you want. Even if that deal is ridiculous, unless it's a rare, special edition, or dwindling stock of previous year models then you'll always be able to come back and buy it later or cheaper somewhere else. Waiting for the new car sucks... but not nearly as much as buyer's remorse
- (Late stage) Once your're set on a vehicle you want and you're in the last round(s) of haggling, ask for a simple, itemized list of the prices, fees, and charges... everything that will be a part of the OTD price. Ask questions. You can still walk away until you sign and there's a chance you can take these numbers to another deal and ask what their fees/charges are for each line item.
- Least important but potentially helpful - develop a rapport with your sales person and the finance manager. You never know when you might run into a fellow Lambda Lambda Lambda alumni or your sister's best friend's dad. It might buy you some points off the top or a bonus 'gift' in the deal just by building some shared camaraderie. BE CAREFUL with this one, it's a double edged sword and, at the end of the day, you might have dropped YOUR guard and now it's their turn to spin your mutual love of My Little Pony into My Fatty Commission
Also, to the point of dealer markup... this is one of the bigger reasons why the laws forbidding manufacturers from going consumer direct is BS. This is scalping, pure and simple. If the mfgr under prices the car, fine, let the savvy consumers buy them up and resell them. It's BS that dealers can mark up a product before its ever even touched the general market. It's very similar to insider trading, IMO.
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All good points. Seems the market is awash with low-mileage Hellcat's both form private-party and dealers, most are asking MSRP for a car with 1.5K on it so that's a lot better than what the dealers are asking. Me thinks this car scared the crap out of some who bought it or people are realizing it's difficult to find a place to use 707 HP without risking a huge ticket. link.
jdoggg12
Platinum Member
- Aug 20, 2005
- 2,685
- 11
- 81
I was recently in the Dodge Dealer in Vacaville CA. They had 2 Hellcats on the showroom floor. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the dealer markup on each was ~$29k, bringing up the total cost to over $100k!
I think you're right about the owners getting nervous/scared. When my dad got his 2006 Mercedes E55 I scared myself by breaking the rear end loose at 50mph! (I had turned off all the launch/traction/stability control like an idiot.) I ride motorcycles and raced my R6... that car scared me (at first), it was so torquey. With an addtional ~30% power, the Hellcat could easily scare a driver that's never driven a high potency machine before. It's insanely easy to break the rear end loose on the highway - a dangerous cocktail exists between a 700hp muscle car, an inexperienced musclecar driver, and a liberal dose of throttle while changing lanes.
I don't buy the scared argument for a second. everyone that bought these thought they were buying something truelly special, some for investment purposes hoping to flip it for a profit. I think many don't really care for the car (didn't meet expectations) and others just said f-it the novelty has wore off.
jdoggg12
Platinum Member
- Aug 20, 2005
- 2,685
- 11
- 81
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqtl7fXDKu4
^ Perfect example of what I'm talking about - and the Corvette is a lot easier to handle. I guarantee that a percentage of the buyers are quickly selling the most powerful mass production car ever produced after something similar happening. They're the buyers with the disposable income to buy a $100k car, drive it 1 or 2 thousand miles (just enough to get over confident) and then sell it because they know they'll kill themselves. I have a friend that did just this with a Nissan GTR.
Working in the motorcycle industry, I see exactly this type of turn around happen all the time. A new rider (or a 250/650twin rider) steps up to a 2015 R1, Panigale, H2, etc) and end up scaring the living shit out of themselves once they go WOT in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd (For perspective, each of those bikes will go toe to toe with a Veyron).
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