[DEAD] ARRIS SURFBoard S33 DOCSIS 3.1 Multi-Gigabit (2.5gbe) cable modem, $149.99 @ Amazon (DotD, Hurry!)

[VirtualLarry]

Amazon.com

25% off, save $50. Only good for the next hour or so!

 

[SamirD]

These modems are just too expensive--$200?!? I've seen enterprise routers for less than that. Until 2.5Gbe is standard, there's no point in being on the bleeding edge and getting something that won't even be supported when the speeds come around.

 

[mikeford]

Docsis is cable only, real high speed could be incompatible like Google fiber. That said some upgrade from the free cable modem is well worth it, speed and no issues.

 

[SamirD]

I don't see cable ever matching fibre, especially with the dismal upload speeds. So that 2.5Gbe port is fluff and so is any cable plan that has it.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I don't see cable ever matching fibre, especially with the dismal upload speeds. So that 2.5Gbe port is fluff and so is any cable plan that has it.

It's NOT "fluff", Comcast is offering 1.2Gbit/sec (1440Mbit/sec after overprovisioning) service over DOCSIS 3.1 coax, FIOS only offers 940Mbit/sec service over their fiber - and that's oversubscribed, if you have more than 2-3 Gbit users on the same 32-way split strand from the CO.

So Comcast actually NEEDS a 2.5gbe jack on their newest modems and gateways.

Edit: There's talk of DOCSIS 4.0 coming relatively soon (inside of 5 years), with 10gbe downloads possible, with 1gbe uploads.

 

[Hans Gruber]

It's NOT "fluff", Comcast is offering 1.2Gbit/sec (1440Mbit/sec after overprovisioning) service over DOCSIS 3.1 coax, FIOS only offers 940Mbit/sec service over their fiber - and that's oversubscribed, if you have more than 2-3 Gbit users on the same 32-way split strand from the CO.

So Comcast actually NEEDS a 2.5gbe jack on their newest modems and gateways.

Edit: There's talk of DOCSIS 4.0 coming relatively soon (inside of 5 years), with 10gbe downloads possible, with 1gbe uploads.

Larry, you are on top of everything. I agree with you as well as the posters above. I have the 1.2gbps comcast service but I do not have the gigabit port modem. The new Motorola has the 2.5gbps port like the Arris. The other problem is DOCSIS 4.0 around the corner. In past posts I said there was a patent that had not expired on port speeds beyond 1gbps that expires in the next few years. The 2.5gbps switches are $100+ and I don't have those yet either. The 2.5gbps comcast xfi modems are cream in color.

I also do not have any ethernet ports beyond 1gbps on any computers and the moment. I will say I cannot understand why anybody would get less than a gigabit connection if available and why anybody would need over a gigabit in bandwidth at this current time. Since comcast gives it for free, I get it for free but have no use for it yet. I now have personal experience with gigabit fiber. I see no difference between comcast gigabit and fiber other than the wow factor of the 1gbps upload speeds which are just crazy. I always thought fiber speeds would be instant but they take several seconds to ramp up to gigabit speeds. Comcast download speed ramp up faster in my experience. Obviously the upload speed of 40mbps is still passable but should be 100mbps or more.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yeah, this is the case where the ISP equipment is actually better than third-party equip. Comcast's, I think "XB7" gateway, has a router built-in, with a 2.5gbe LAN jack for your LAN.

Right now, there are a few routers with 2.5gbe, and maybe a couple with 10gbe, but almost none with BOTH a WAN and a LAN faster than 1gbe. Asus AX89X (overheats) and QNAP QHora-301 (no IPv6 support) come to mind. Surely for the $300-400 price that these top-end routers come in at, you could fit a 2x2 160Mhz AX 5/6Ghz wifi, 10gbe WAN, and 4-5x 2.5gbe for LAN. Would that be asking too much? And at least two years of firmware / security updates?

 

[SamirD]

It's NOT "fluff", Comcast is offering 1.2Gbit/sec (1440Mbit/sec after overprovisioning) service over DOCSIS 3.1 coax, FIOS only offers 940Mbit/sec service over their fiber - and that's oversubscribed, if you have more than 2-3 Gbit users on the same 32-way split strand from the CO.

So Comcast actually NEEDS a 2.5gbe jack on their newest modems and gateways.

Edit: There's talk of DOCSIS 4.0 coming relatively soon (inside of 5 years), with 10gbe downloads possible, with 1gbe uploads.

And what's the upload on that 1.2G speed? It's 35Mb (https://www.xfinity.com/networkmanagement). Utter cheese compared to FIOS, which I have had before, and is absolutely superior with superior symmetrical speeds and latency. Cable is just trying to attract people with the new 'shiny' top speed while the same slow upload speeds dominate. Sure if the extra 200Mbps of DL speed is needed, get a 2.5Gb, but that's also going to be somewhat limited by how fast ACK messages can be sent back to the server--ie upload speed.

I was in a multi-tenant unit when I had FIOS too--solid speeds all the time since every unit had a direct fibre termination.

The cable providers are struggling as symmetrical fibre comes in and wipes the floor with them in real-life performance.

 

[SamirD]

Larry, you are on top of everything. I agree with you as well as the posters above. I have the 1.2gbps comcast service but I do not have the gigabit port modem. The new Motorola has the 2.5gbps port like the Arris. The other problem is DOCSIS 4.0 around the corner. In past posts I said there was a patent that had not expired on port speeds beyond 1gbps that expires in the next few years. The 2.5gbps switches are $100+ and I don't have those yet either. The 2.5gbps comcast xfi modems are cream in color.

I also do not have any ethernet ports beyond 1gbps on any computers and the moment. I will say I cannot understand why anybody would get less than a gigabit connection if available and why anybody would need over a gigabit in bandwidth at this current time. Since comcast gives it for free, I get it for free but have no use for it yet. I now have personal experience with gigabit fiber. I see no difference between comcast gigabit and fiber other than the wow factor of the 1gbps upload speeds which are just crazy. I always thought fiber speeds would be instant but they take several seconds to ramp up to gigabit speeds. Comcast download speed ramp up faster in my experience. Obviously the upload speed of 40mbps is still passable but should be 100mbps or more.

So I manage 4x isp accounts across 3x different providers and have used about 6x providers in the past. The main reason we don't get higher download speed plans is because they simply don't matter for our use case, especially when you can't tell the difference between 200Mbps and 500Mbps that we have anyways. So we always optimize our connections based on the upload speeds as we do use these constantly.

Besides the fios fiber, there was one more fibre that we used as well as att, and the main thing that fibre had over cable in all 3 locations was that the ping was <10ms beyond the isp. If you look at any cable provider, by the time it leaves their network, it's 20ms easy. For our use, latency matters a lot so fibre was always super quick compared to cable.

Now, this was a few years ago before throttling algorithms have slowed everything down. We actually have high speed connections, but because they're not all constantly trying to pull 100Mbs, they're throttled to slower speeds which is really frustrating. We optimize how much data we try to put through the pipe, but it seems we pay a penalty for it.

 

[SamirD]

Yeah, this is the case where the ISP equipment is actually better than third-party equip. Comcast's, I think "XB7" gateway, has a router built-in, with a 2.5gbe LAN jack for your LAN.

Right now, there are a few routers with 2.5gbe, and maybe a couple with 10gbe, but almost none with BOTH a WAN and a LAN faster than 1gbe. Asus AX89X (overheats) and QNAP QHora-301 (no IPv6 support) come to mind. Surely for the $300-400 price that these top-end routers come in at, you could fit a 2x2 160Mhz AX 5/6Ghz wifi, 10gbe WAN, and 4-5x 2.5gbe for LAN. Would that be asking too much? And at least two years of firmware / security updates?

Yep, isp all the way until the prices come down.

And there are a TON of 10Gb routers out there, but you need to look used enterprise and not consumer stuff. Not only are they cheaper, but they're much more robust as well. You still will need a separate access point, but that's what the old router is for.

 

[dlerious]

I live in a rural area where the fastest speeds are less than 100Mb down ($100+). Other options are dial-up or DSL - until Starlink arrives. I wish there was more competition to push the speeds up and prices down. Having said that, I over spent on a new modem Motorola MB8600 (over MB8611) hoping I'll be able to use it to it's full potential before it's obsolete.

 

[Hans Gruber]

So I manage 4x isp accounts across 3x different providers and have used about 6x providers in the past. The main reason we don't get higher download speed plans is because they simply don't matter for our use case, especially when you can't tell the difference between 200Mbps and 500Mbps that we have anyways. So we always optimize our connections based on the upload speeds as we do use these constantly.

Besides the fios fiber, there was one more fibre that we used as well as att, and the main thing that fibre had over cable in all 3 locations was that the ping was <10ms beyond the isp. If you look at any cable provider, by the time it leaves their network, it's 20ms easy. For our use, latency matters a lot so fibre was always super quick compared to cable.

Now, this was a few years ago before throttling algorithms have slowed everything down. We actually have high speed connections, but because they're not all constantly trying to pull 100Mbs, they're throttled to slower speeds which is really frustrating. We optimize how much data we try to put through the pipe, but it seems we pay a penalty for it.

Samir, which 10GB used switches are you speaking of that are inexpensive on the used market. Where do you suggest looking for the best quality/price for these switches. I should point out that the gigabit fiber is $60-65 here. They have not rolled it out yet where I live, but the price is the same as where my parents live. I tried to explain to my dad that there are few websites or servers that actually support speeds up to 1gbps. For game downloads, rockstar has always been whatever your internet connection can do. 104-115MB (megabytes), steam throttles and so does Origin. Think of having gigabit as a nice to have feature that gives you limitless backhaul for streaming several devices at once and running multiple zoom calls.

I tested my comcast gigabit download with another ISP. My ping was 10ms.

 

[mikeford]

Those fast switches also typically power hungry, run hot, etc. Pay to buy, pay each month for the power to run them.

I won't get too motivated until I have better than Spectrum cable, which is costing me $70/mo internet only, and a new motherboard with better than Gbe.

BTW I've tried channel bonding, port aggregation, etc using a recent dual port intel card and software, flakey flakey flakey, not working.

 

[SamirD]

I live in a rural area where the fastest speeds are less than 100Mb down ($100+). Other options are dial-up or DSL - until Starlink arrives. I wish there was more competition to push the speeds up and prices down. Having said that, I over spent on a new modem Motorola MB8600 (over MB8611) hoping I'll be able to use it to it's full potential before it's obsolete.

It's not being obsolete that's the problem--it's the isp's requirements changing. Currently one of my isp's (xfinity) upgraded their speeds to 800Mbs, which is easily achievable by the modem we currently have, but they keep sending emails about how it's 'not supported' and needs to be upgraded.

You're actually lucky that you can pretty much get almost any old modem and it will work great. And if you ever want to increase your bandwidth, multi-wan is a really way to do it--I did that for years with 3x modems when I couldn't get the upload speeds I needed.

 

[SamirD]

Samir, which 10GB used switches are you speaking of that are inexpensive on the used market. Where do you suggest looking for the best quality/price for these switches. I should point out that the gigabit fiber is $60-65 here. They have not rolled it out yet where I live, but the price is the same as where my parents live. I tried to explain to my dad that there are few websites or servers that actually support speeds up to 1gbps. For game downloads, rockstar has always been whatever your internet connection can do. 104-115MB (megabytes), steam throttles and so does Origin. Think of having gigabit as a nice to have feature that gives you limitless backhaul for streaming several devices at once and running multiple zoom calls.

I tested my comcast gigabit download with another ISP. My ping was 10ms.

Here's the thread where I found them. Prices have jumped because of covid, et al, but they're still good values for what you get:

Brocade ICX Series (cheap & powerful 10gbE/40gbE switching)

NOTE #1: do not PM me with switch questions, they will be ignored - post them in this public thread, where hundreds of other members can also answer, and the answer will be public for future users NOTE #2 06-22-2023: Yes, this post is still up to date and nothing has changed: in fact judging by...

forums.servethehome.com

Every fibre 1G service I've seen is 1-2ms. Even when I had just 50Mbs fibre at one site, my ping was 1ms to my isp.

 

[SamirD]

Those fast switches also typically power hungry, run hot, etc. Pay to buy, pay each month for the power to run them.

I won't get too motivated until I have better than Spectrum cable, which is costing me $70/mo internet only, and a new motherboard with better than Gbe.

BTW I've tried channel bonding, port aggregation, etc using a recent dual port intel card and software, flakey flakey flakey, not working.

10Gb in general requires more power. POE in any flavor will require power.

Yep, until things really become available, it's a waste to try to be on the bleeding edge.

You don't need to do that stuff anymore with w10 and smb3. Just give it two connections and it will utilize both automatically.

 

[Hans Gruber]

It's not being obsolete that's the problem--it's the isp's requirements changing. Currently one of my isp's (xfinity) upgraded their speeds to 800Mbs, which is easily achievable by the modem we currently have, but they keep sending emails about how it's 'not supported' and needs to be upgraded.

You're actually lucky that you can pretty much get almost any old modem and it will work great. And if you ever want to increase your bandwidth, multi-wan is a really way to do it--I did that for years with 3x modems when I couldn't get the upload speeds I needed.

The reason they say your really fast DOCSIS 3.0 modem is not supported. There is a serious overhead/bandwidth problem with DOCSIS 3.0 modems. The max speed comcast will give you is real world 350-400mbps down and 5mbps up. With DOCSIS 3.1 there is much less overhead. Think of it as taxing their system whereas DOCSIS 3.1 offers less taxing performance for the speed it offers.

 

[SamirD]

The reason they say your really fast DOCSIS 3.0 modem is not supported. There is a serious overhead/bandwidth problem with DOCSIS 3.0 modems. The max speed comcast will give you is real world 350-400mbps down and 5mbps up. With DOCSIS 3.1 there is much less overhead. Think of it as taxing their system whereas DOCSIS 3.1 offers less taxing performance for the speed it offers.

That's definitely not true since at one site we have had 500/50 going through that modem for many years now and the xfinity site has 600/15 before the recent upgrade to 800/20.

I don't think it's a matter of overhead but simply codec in the modems and carrier side equipment that's getting more efficient for them. It doesn't help us one bit to be changing equipment for their sake. I can't tell the difference between the 2.0 and 3.0 modems when they first came out and only until speeds went beyond the limits of 2.0 did moving to 3.0 matter. But now, you're not given a choice. I'm actually surprised modem manufacturers don't do anything but just change an existing model to the newest docsis and change nothing--because that's all that's really required.