De-Baathification and elimination of the Iraqi army

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Let?s try to set some ground rules for this thread.
1. We all know that Iraq is a mess, no need to point that out again, there are a dozen other Iraq threads on that subject.
2. Therefore, can we focus this thread on what Bremer is saying about the decisions to disband the Iraqi army and drive high ranking members of the Baath party out of power.
Is he right? Is he wrong? What should we have done differently etc.

WaPo link
What We Got Right in Iraq (his title, not mine)
Once conventional wisdom congeals, even facts can't shake it loose. These days, everyone "knows" that the Coalition Provisional Authority made two disastrous decisions at the beginning of the U.S. occupation of Iraq: to vengefully drive members of the Baath Party from public life and to recklessly disband the Iraqi army. The most recent example is former CIA chief George J. Tenet, whose new memoir pillories me for those decisions (even though I don't recall his ever objecting to either call during our numerous conversations in my 14 months leading the CPA). Similar charges are unquestioningly repeated in books and articles. Looking for a neat, simple explanation for our current problems in Iraq, pundits argue that these two steps alienated the formerly ruling Sunnis, created a pool of angry rebels-in-waiting and sparked the insurgency that's raging today. The conventional wisdom is as firm here as it gets. It's also dead wrong.

Like most Americans, I am disappointed by the difficulties the nation has encountered after our quick 2003 victory over Saddam Hussein. But the U.S.-led coalition was absolutely right to strip away the apparatus of a particularly odious tyranny. Hussein modeled his regime after Adolf Hitler's, which controlled the German people with two main instruments: the Nazi Party and the Reich's security services. We had no choice but to rid Iraq of the country's equivalent organizations to give it any chance at a brighter future.

Here's how the decisions were made. Gen. Tommy R. Franks, the head of the military's U.S. Central Command, outlawed the Baath Party on April 16, 2003. The day before I left for Iraq in May, Undersecretary of Defense Douglas J. Feith presented me with a draft law that would purge top Baathists from the Iraqi government and told me that he planned to issue it immediately. Recognizing how important this step was, I asked Feith to hold off, among other reasons, so I could discuss it with Iraqi leaders and CPA advisers. A week later, after careful consultation, I issued this "de-Baathification" decree, as drafted by the Pentagon.

Our goal was to rid the Iraqi government of the small group of true believers at the top of the party, not to harass rank-and-file Sunnis. We were following in the footsteps of Gen. Dwight D. Eisenhower in postwar Germany. Like the Nazi Party, the Baath Party ran all aspects of Iraqi life. Every Iraqi neighborhood had a party cell. Baathists recruited children to spy on their parents, just as the Nazis had. Hussein even required members of his dreaded intelligence services to read "Mein Kampf."

Although Hussein and his cronies had been in power three times as long as Hitler had, the CPA decree was much less far-reaching than Eisenhower's de-Nazification law, which affected all but the lowest-ranking former Nazis. By contrast, our Iraqi law affected only about 1 percent of Baath Party members. We knew that many had joined out of opportunism or fear, and they weren't our targets.

Eisenhower had barred Nazis not just from holding government jobs but "from positions of importance in quasi-public and private enterprises." The Iraqi law merely prohibited these top party officials from holding government positions, leaving them free to find jobs elsewhere -- even outside Iraq (provided they were not facing criminal charges). Finally, the de-Baathification decree let us make exceptions, and scores of Baathists remained in their posts.

Our critics (usually people who have never visited Iraq) often allege that the de-Baathification decision left Iraqi ministries without effective leadership. Not so. Virtually all the old Baathist ministers had fled before the decree was issued. But we were generally impressed with the senior civil servants left running the ministries, who in turn were delighted to be free of the party hacks who had long overseen them. The net result: We stripped away the tyrant's ardent backers but gave responsible Sunnis a chance to join in building a new Iraq.

The decree was not only judicious but also popular. Four days after I issued it, Hamid Bayati, a leading Shiite politician, told us that the Shiites were "jubilant" because they had feared that the United States planned to leave unrepentant Baathists in senior government and security positions -- what he called "Saddamism without Saddam." Opinion polls during the occupation period repeatedly showed that an overwhelming majority of Iraqis, including many Sunnis, supported de-Baathification.

We then turned over the implementation of this carefully focused policy to Iraq's politicians. I was wrong here. The Iraqi leaders, many of them resentful of the old Sunni regime, broadened the decree's impact far beyond our original design. That led to such unintended results as the firing of several thousand teachers for being Baath Party members. We eventually fixed those excesses, but I should have made implementation the job of a judicial body, not a political one.

Still, the underlying policy of removing top Baath officials from government was right and necessary. This decision is still supported by most Iraqis; witness the difficulties that Iraq's elected government has had in making even modest revisions to the decree.

The war's critics have also comprehensively misunderstood the "disbanding" of Hussein's army, arguing that we kicked away a vital pillar that kept the country stable and created a pool of unemployed, angry men ripe for rebellion. But this fails to reckon with the true nature of Hussein's killing machine and the situation on the ground.

It's somewhat surprising at this late date to have to remind people of the old army's reign of terror. In the 1980s, it waged a genocidal war against Iraq's minority Kurds, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians and more than 5,000 people in a notorious chemical-weapons attack on the Kurdish town of Halabja. After the 1991 Persian Gulf War, Iraq's majority Shiites rose up against Hussein, whose army machine-gunned hundreds of thousands of men, women and children and threw their corpses into mass graves. It's no wonder that Shiites and Kurds, who together make up more than 80 percent of Iraq's population, hated Hussein's military.

Moreover, any thought of using the old army was undercut by conditions on the ground. Before the 2003 war, the army had consisted of about 315,000 miserable draftees, almost all Shiite, serving under a largely Sunni officer corps of about 80,000. The Shiite conscripts were regularly brutalized and abused by their Sunni officers. When the draftees saw which way the war was going, they deserted and, like their officers, went back home. But before the soldiers left, they looted the army's bases right down to the foundations.

So by the time I arrived in Iraq, there was no Iraqi army to disband. Some in the U.S. military and the CIA's Baghdad station suggested that we try to recall Hussein's army. We refused, for overwhelming practical, political and military reasons.

For starters, the draftees were hardly going to return voluntarily to the army they so loathed; we would have had to send U.S. troops into Shiite villages to force them back at gunpoint. And even if we could have assembled a few all-Sunni units, the looting would have meant they'd have no gear or bases.

Moreover, the political consequences of recalling the army would have been catastrophic. Kurdish leaders made it clear to me that recalling Hussein-era forces would make their region secede, which would have triggered a civil war and tempted Turkey and Iran to invade Iraq to prevent the establishment of an independent Kurdistan. Many Shiite leaders who were cooperating with the U.S.-led forces would have taken up arms against us if we'd called back the perpetrators of the southern killing fields of 1991.

Finally, neither the U.S.-led coalition nor the Iraqis could have relied on the allegiance of a recalled army. This lesson was driven home a year later, when the Marines unilaterally recalled a single brigade of Hussein's former army, without consulting with the Iraqi government or the CPA. This "Fallujah Brigade" quickly proved disloyal and had to be disbanded. Moreover, the Marines' action so rattled the Shiites and Kurds that it very nearly derailed the political process of returning sovereignty over the country to the Iraqi people -- further proof of the extreme danger of relying on Hussein's old army.

So, after full coordination within the U.S. government, including the military, I issued an order to build a new, all-volunteer army. Any member of the former army up to the rank of colonel was welcome to apply. By the time I left Iraq, more than 80 percent of the enlisted men and virtually all of the noncommissioned officers and officers in the new army were from the old army, as are most of the top officers today. We also started paying pensions to officers from the old army who could not join the new one -- stipends that the Iraqi government is still paying.

I'll admit that I've grown weary of being a punching bag over these decisions -- particularly from critics who've never spent time in Iraq, don't understand its complexities and can't explain what we should have done differently. These two sensible and moral calls did not create today's insurgency. Intelligence material we discovered after the war began showed that Hussein's security forces had long planned to wage such a revolt.

No doubt some members of the Baath Party and the old army have joined the insurgency. But they are not fighting because they weren't given a chance to earn a living. They're fighting because they want to topple a democratically elected government and reestablish a Baathist dictatorship. The true responsibility for today's bloodshed rests with these people and their al-Qaeda collaborators.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Based on what Bremer is saying the decisions to ditch the army and Baath party were the right ones.

Perhaps someone can provide some thing that shows this to be wrong.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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The problem with Bremer's explanation is that his defense of the action taken towards the Baath party and the Iraqi army seems to largely consist of a revisionist history where we DIDN'T actually disband either. He's not so much saying that it was a good idea as he is saying that we didn't do it in the first place. Given that sacking large numbers of nominal Baath party members (like teachers, low level administrators, engineers, etc) and virtually eliminating the Iraqi army is pretty widely known, and that this is the first attempt by anyone to "set the record straight", I have to doubt whether or not Bremer is telling the truth. This might have been a plausible explanation 3 years ago, but if this is what really happened, why are we just hearing about it now?

As to the wisdom of taking that action, I tend to think it was a pretty bad idea. Saddam ruled entirely through fear and lacked the popular support that sustained the Nazi regime...the comparison is a little too general. Most Baathists were members of the part in the same way that Russians back in the Soviet Union were part of the communist party. While I can understand the psychological reasons for getting rid of everyone associated with the party, I don't think that keeping them in place would have resulted in a Saddam type government without Saddam, and it might have helped prevent a lot of the chaos that resulted after we totally dismantled the government after the invasion. The best of all worlds would have been to quickly replace the administrative sections of the government with non-Baathists, but since we didn't do that, even leaving some of the less extremist Baathists in charge would have been a better choice. And a similar argument can be made for the Iraqi army, which by all accounts did not magically vanish when we invaded. While they certainly wouldn't have been the best, they could have performed a lot of simple tasks that, again, went undone after we dismantled the entire government.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,073
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Woodward's description of what happened as given by Jay Garner (Bremer's predecessor) is very different then what Bremer is now describing.

Most importantly it was that Bremer refused to pay the Iraqi army. While he could say there was no army to disband, something tells me that they would have shown up to get paid. Whether or not they decided to use the army for the anything more then playing ping pong at their bases, the idea of suddenly adding 400,000 unemployed men with weapons training (and weapons) to an unstable country was certainly a terrible idea. He should have kept paying them... as an investment in security.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
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Shocking. Someone refuses to take the blame and instead says it was all overblown. Like eskimospy said, Garner and others paint a much different picture.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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What it shows is a group of GWB&co. idiots that were totally overoptimistic and placed far above their competence level---and if any in the army bothered to point out that this might well lead to disaster---they got the Shinseki treatment. The US military could place them in charge---but they had no levers of power to pull because the existing Iraqi Government totally evaporated.---and they then had no plan to reconstitute one.

And now four years later the various rascals are writing their version of revisionist history---that places the blame for mistakes anywhere else but on themselves. And now GWB&co. finally places someone who is semi-competent in charge with Patraeus---and then don't have any plan to give Patraeus more than 15% of the troops that the Patraeus doctrine requires.

As a friend of mine used to point out---you can't make chicken soup out of chickenshit. And you either have a realistic plan or you plan to fail. And that is exactly what we are doing in Iraq---failing miserably because we went into an occupation far too light----and GWB now has to use diplomacy to get the troops needed which GWB&co. refuses to do.

GWB&co---incredibly stupid then----still incredibly stupid now---what new?
 

GrGr

Diamond Member
Sep 25, 2003
3,204
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Well compare Bremer's approach with Jay Garner's, his predecessor. Looks like Garner had three "musts" for things to work the US way post invasion.

"Garner drew up detailed plans and, at his first briefing with President Bush, outlined three essential ?musts? that would, he asserted, ensure a smooth transition after the war. The first ?must?, he said, was that the Iraqi military should not be disbanded. The second ?must? was that the 50,000-strong Ba?ath party machine that ran government services should not be broken up or its members proscribed. If either were to happen, he warned, there would be chaos compounded by thousands of unemployed, armed Iraqis running around. And the third ?must?, he insisted, was that an interim Iraqi leadership group, eager to help the United States administer the country in the short term, should be kept on-side."

link
 

GZeus

Senior member
Apr 24, 2006
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Bremmer had no Middle-East experience when he went to Iraq and took advise from a guy like Feith.... he was incompetent and completely over his head and now wants to re-write the book so he looks like the wise man.
Another fine example of GWB&Co appointing someone based on political affiliations and the family network (he was Kissinger's right hand man) rather than someone who is qualified.
That may be okay when you're looking for an AG but its a bad idea when you're gambling with the future of two nations.
 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
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Kind of funny that he brought up post-war Germany. The barring of ex-Nazi party members from holding any position of power was a disaster that did not last long. We certainly learned enough to not repeat the mistake in Japan.

Our policies created an entire class of people in Iraq who were "armed and dangerous", angry, and often desperate. Simultaneously, we caused the collapse of government services and security. Even an old hippy wouldn't have expected love and peace to follow. But, somehow, we were surprised that people weren't dancing in the streets, flowers in their hair, singing "Joy to the World".
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
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Interesting that Bremer compared Saddam to the Nazis only two paragraphs into his little rant. Then continued to do so throughout. Nice touch.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Interesting that Bremer compared Saddam to the Nazis only two paragraphs into his little rant. Then continued to do so throughout. Nice touch.
Saddam wrote his own version of "Mein Kampf" and saw himself as someone who would unite the Arab world against the west. Do you think the comparison to Hitler is not there?
Or is Bush the only person we are allowed to compare to Hitler these days?
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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The U.S. Occupation of Japan ? Four Lessons for Iraq

Cliff notes for those that like everything quick, cheap, and easy like the occupation of foreign countries.

The U.S. Occupation of Japan ? Four Lessons for Iraq

Lesson Number 1: Even though there was no armed resistance after Japan?s surrender, the U.S. presence in Japan was massive ? including troops, civilian personnel, teachers, lawyers, engineers and missionaries ? and lasted for about two decades.

Lesson Number 2: By far the most critical component of the occupation was the massive economic, financial, managerial and technological assistance the Americans provided post-war Japan.
Efforts were directed at giving Japanese firms the tools they needed to rebuild a strong national economy ? and not to serve just as a market for foreign firms.
U.S. authorities kept out American investment from Japan. One of the very rare exceptions was Coca-Cola, which was needed for the American troops ? and which has retained a predominant market share in Japan ever since.

Lesson Number 3: This is probably the simplest lesson of all and the most obvious: When occupying a foreign country, do your homework ? and learn the language!
One of the reasons why the occupation was so well executed was that the Americans came quite well prepared.
Immediately after at the attack on Pearl Harbor in December 1941, a very intensive Japanese language program was established, centered at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. It produced a strong core of American experts who were fluent in Japanese.

MacArthur and the Emperor

No doubt, the most blatant case of ?realism? was the decision not to prosecute Emperor Hirohito ? who could have been held responsible for far more killings and atrocities than Saddam Hussein.
The only ?humiliation? Hirohito was subjected to was having his photograph taken next to a nonchalant MacArthur towering over him.
In fact, in Japan, the Americans ultimately did not engage in regime change. Minus the military ? who, as pointed out, would almost certainly have been chucked out in any case ? the American occupation built on the existing establishment and the existing regime.

Lesson Number 4 therefore is: ?If you find yourself contemplating regime-change in some foreign land, without doubt the best advice is ? don?t!?


 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: PrevaricatorJohn
Saddam wrote his own version of "Mein Kampf" and saw himself as someone who would unite the Arab world against the west. Do you think the comparison to Hitler is not there?
Or is Bush the only person we are allowed to compare to Hitler these days?
No. You're welcome to compare others to Hitler, as long as you provide substantiation for the claim. Before you do, you may want to refine your definitions. There are plenty of other despots through history who can rightly be labeled as evil, despotic or any other negative adjective but whose actions, historically, don't parallel those of Hitler and the nazis.

Edward Jayne, a retired English professor with experience as a '60s activist, wrote this comparison in 2003 - 2004. In his conclusion, he also refers to "differences [that] may be listed between Hitler and President Bush, most of which are to the credit of Bush," but whether or not you agree with his political stance, if you want to challenge his comparisons, you'll have to do it with facts, or you're blowing smoke:
31 Similarities Between Hitler and President Bush
by Edward Jayne
www.dissidentvoice.org
August 29, 2004/

(revised from an earlier version posted March 29, 2003)

When President Bush decided to invade Iraq, his spokesmen began comparing Saddam Hussein to Adolph Hitler, the most monstrous figure in modern history. Everybody was therefore shocked when a high German bureaucrat turned the tables by comparing Bush himself with Hitler. As to be expected, she (the bureaucrat) was forced to resign because of her extreme disrespect for an American president. However, the resemblance sticks--there are too many similarities to be ignored, some of which may be listed here.
  1. Like Hitler, President Bush was not elected by a majority, but was forced to engage in political maneuvering in order to gain office.
  2. Like Hitler, Bush began to curtail civil liberties in response to a well-publicized disaster, in Hitler?s case the Reichstag fire, in Bush?s case the 9-11 catastrophe.
  3. Like Hitler, Bush went on to pursue a reckless foreign policy without the mandate of the electorate and despite the opposition of most foreign nations.
  4. Like Hitler, Bush has increased his popularity with conservative voters by mounting an aggressive public relations campaign against foreign enemies. Just as Hitler cited international communism to justify Germany?s military buildup, Bush has used Al Qaeda and the so-called Axis of Evil to justify our current military buildup. Paradoxically none of the nations in this axis--Iraq, Iran and North Korea--have had anything to do with each other.
  5. Like Hitler, Bush has promoted militarism in the midst of economic recession (or depression as it was called during the thirties). First he used war preparations to help subsidize defense industries (Halliburton, Bechtel, Carlyle Group, etc.) and presumably the rest of the economy on a trickle-down basis. Now he turns to the very same corporations to rebuild Iraq, again without competitive bidding and at extravagant profit levels.
  6. Like Hitler, Bush displays great populist enthusiasm in his patriotic speeches, but primarily serves wealthy investors who subsidize his election campaigns and share with him their comfortable lifestyle. As he himself jokes, he treats these individuals at the pinnacle of our economy as his true political ?base.?
  7. Like Hitler, Bush envisages our nation?s unique historic destiny almost as a religious cause sanctioned by God. Just as Hitler did for Germany, he takes pride in his ?providential? role in spreading his version of Americanism throughout the entire world.
  8. Like Hitler, Bush promotes a future world order that guarantees his own nation?s hegemonic supremacy rather than cooperative harmony under the authority of the United Nations (or League of Nations).
  9. Like Hitler, Bush quickly makes and breaks diplomatic ties, and he offers generous promises that he soon abandons, as in the cases of Mexico, Russia, Afghanistan, and even New York City. The same goes for U.S. domestic programs. Once Bush was elected, many leaders of these programs learned to dread his making any kind of an appearance to praise their success, since this was almost inevitably followed by severe cuts in their budgets.
  10. Like Hitler, Bush scraps international treaties, most notably the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Biological Weapons Convention, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the Convention on the Prohibition of Land Mines, the Chemical Weapons Convention, the Kyoto Global Warming Accord, and the International Criminal Court.
  11. Like Hitler, Bush repeats lies often enough that they come to be accepted as the truth. Bush and his spokesmen argued, for example, that they had taken every measure possible to avoid war, than an invasion of Iraq would diminish (not intensify) the terrorist threat against the U.S., that Iraq was linked with Al Qaeda, and that nothing whatsoever had been achieved by U.N. inspectors to warrant the postponement of U.S. invasion plans. All of this was false. They also insisted that Iraq hid numerous weapons it did not possess since the mid-190s, and they refused to acknowledge the absence of a nuclear weapons program in Iraq since the early nineties. As perhaps to be expected, they indignantly accused others of deception and evasiveness.
  12. Like Hitler, Bush incessantly shifted his arguments to justify invading Iraq--from Iraq?s WMD threat to the elimination of Saddam Hussein, to his supposed Al Qaeda connection, to the creation of Iraqi democracy in the Middle East as a model for neighboring states, and back again to the WMD threat. As soon as one excuse for the war was challenged, Bush advanced to another, but only to shift back again at another time.
  13. Like Hitler, Bush and his cohorts emphasize the ruthlessness of their enemies in order to justify their own. Just as Hitler cited the threat of communist violence to justify even greater violence on the part of Germany, the bush team justified the invasion of Iraq by emphasizing Hussein?s crimes against humanity over the past twenty-five years. However, these crimes were for the most part committed when Iraq was a client-ally of the U.S. Our government supplied Hussein with illegal weapons (poison gas included), and there were sixty U.S. advisors in Iraq when these weapons were put to use (see NY Times, Aug. 18, 1992). U.S. aid to Iraq was actually doubled afterwards despite disclaimers from Washington that our nation opposed their use. President Reagan?s special envoy Donald Rumsfeld personally informed Hussein of this one hundred percent increment during one of his two trips to Iraq at the time. He also told Hussein not to take U.S. disclaimers seriously.
  14. Like Hitler, Bush takes pride in his status as a ?War President,? and his global ambition makes him perhaps the most dangerous president in our nation?s history, a ?rogue? chief executive capable of waging any number of illegal preemptive wars. He fully acknowledges his willingness to engage in wars of ?choice? as well as wars of necessity. Sooner or later this choice will oblige universal conscription as well as a full-scale war economy.
  15. Like Hitler, Bush continues to pursue war without cutting back on the peacetime economy. Additional to unprecedented low interest rates bestowed by the Federal Reserve, he has actually cut federal taxes twice by substantial amounts, especially for the top one percent of U.S. taxpayers, while conducting an expensive invasion and an even more expensive occupation of a hostile nation. As a result, President Clinton?s $350 billion budget surplus has been reduced to a $450 billion deficit, comprising an unprecedented $800 billion decline in less than four years. At the same time the U.S. dollar has steadily dropped against currencies of both Europe and Japan.
  16. Like Hitler, Bush possesses a war machine much bigger and more effective than the military capabilities of other nations. With the extra financing obliged by the defeat and occupation of Iraq, Bush now relies on a ?defense? budget well in excess of the combined military expenditures of the rest of the world. Moreover, the $416 billion defense package passed last week by Congress will probably need to be supplemented before the end of the year.
  17. Like Hitler, bush depends on an axis of collaborative allies, which he describes as a ?coalition of the willing,? in order to give the impression of a broad popular alliance. These allies include the U.K. as compared to Mussolini?s Italy, and Spain and Bulgaria, as compared to, well, Spain and Bulgaria, both of which were aligned with Germany during the thirties and World War II. As a result of their cooperation, Prime Minister Blair?s diplomatic reputation has been ruined in England, and a surprising election defeat has produced an unfriendly government in Spain. The Philippines have withdrawn their troops from Iraq to save the life of a hostage, and other defections can be expected in the near future.
  18. Like Hitler, Bush is willing to go to war over the objections of the U.N. (League of Nations). His Iraq invasion was illegal and therefore a war crime as explained by Articles 41 and 42 of the U.N. Charter, which require two votes, not one, by the Security Council before any state takes such an action. First a vote is needed to explore all possibilities short of warfare (in Iraq?s case through the use of U.N. inspectors), and once this has been shown to be fruitless, a second vote is needed to permit military action. U.S. and U.K. delegates at the Security Council prevented this second vote once it was plain they lacked a majority. This was because other nations on the Security Council were satisfied with the findings of U.N. inspectors that no weapons of mass destruction had yet been found. Minus this second vote, the invasion was illegal. Bush also showed in the process that he has no qualms about bribing, bullying, and insulting U.N. members, even tapping their telephone lines. This was done with undecided members of the Security Council as well as the U.N. Secretary General when the U.S.-U.K. resolution was debated preceding the invasion.
  19. Like Hitler, Bush launches unilateral invasions on a supposedly preemptive basis. Just as Hitler convinced the German public to think of Poland as a threat to Germany in 1939 (for example in his Sept. 19 speech), Bush wants Americans to think of Iraq as having been a ?potential? threat to our national security--indeed as one of the instigators of the 9-11 attack despite a complete lack of evidence to support this claim.
  20. Like Hitler, Bush depends on a military strategy that features a ?shock and awe? blitzkrieg beginning with devastating air strikes, then an invasion led by heavy armored columns.
  21. Like Hitler, Bush is willing to inflict high levels of bloodshed against enemy nations. Between 20,000 and (more probably) 37,000 are now estimated to have been killed, as much as a ro-1 kill ratio compared to the more than 900 Americans killed. In other words, for every U.S. fatality, probably as many as forty Iraqi have died.
  22. Like Hitler, Bush is perfectly willing to sacrifice life as part of his official duty. This would be indicated by the unprecedented number of prisoners executed during his service as governor of Texas. Under no other governor in the history of the United States were so many killed.
  23. Like Hitler, Bush began warfare on a single front (Al Qaeda quartered in Afghanistan), but then expanded it to a second front with Iraq, only to be confronted with North Korea and Iran as potential third and fourth fronts. Much the same thing happened to Hitler when he advanced German military operations from Spain to Poland and France, then was distracted by Yugoslavia before invading the USSR in 1941. Today, bush seems prevented by the excessive costs of the Iraqi debacle from going to war elsewhere if reelected, but not through any lack of desire.
  24. Like Hitler, Bush has no qualms about imposing ?regime change? by installing Quisling-style client governments backed by a U.S. military occupation with both political and economic control entirely in the hands of Americans. It is no surprise that Iyad Alawi, Iraq?s current temporary prime minister, was once affiliated with the CIA and has been reliably reported by the Australian press to have executed six hooded prisoners with a handgun to their heads just a day or two before his appointment a couple weeks ago.
  25. Like Hitler, Bush curtails civil liberties in captive nations and depends on detention centers (i.e., concentration camps) such as a Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, and any number of secret interrogation centers across the world. Prisoners at the camps go unidentified and have no legal rights as ordinarily guaranteed by the Geneva Conventions. They have also been detained indefinitely (for 2 ½ years already at Guantanamo Bay), though there is mounting evidence that many are innocent of what they have been charged--some, for example, having been randomly seized by Northern Alliance troops in Afghanistan for an automatic bounty from U.S. commanders. Moreover, many Iraqi prisoners have been tortured, in many instances just short of death. Recent U.S. documents disclose that as many twenty have died while being tortured, and twenty others have died under unusual circumstances yet to be determined.
  26. Like Hitler, Bush uses the threat of enemies abroad to stir the fearful allegiance of the U.S. public. For example, he features public announcements of possible terrorist attacks in order to override embarrassing news coverage or to crowd from headlines positive coverage of Democratic Party activities. He also uses the threat of terrorism to justify extraordinary domestic powers granted by the Patriot Act. Even the books we check out of public libraries can be kept on record by federal agents.
  27. Like Hitler, Bush depends on a propaganda machine to guarantee sympathetic news management. In Hitler?s case news coverage was totally dominated by Goebbels; in Bush?s case reporters have been almost totally ?imbedded? by both military spokesmen and wealthy media owners sympathetic with Bush. The most obvious case is the Fox news channel, owned and controlled by Rupert Murdoch. Not surprisingly, recent polls indicate that the majority of Fox viewers still think Hussein played a role in the 9-11 attack.
  28. Like Hitler, Bush increasingly reduces the circle of aides he feels he can trust as his policies keep boomeranging at his own expense. Just as Hitler ended up isolated in his headquarters, with few individuals granted access, Bush is now said to be limiting access primarily to Attorney General Ashcroft (who also talks with God on a regular basis) as well as Karl Rove, the Vice President, Karen Hughes, and a few others. Both Secretary of State Powell and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld are now said to be out of the loop.
  29. Like Hitler, Bush has become obsessed with his vision of conflict between good (U.S. patriotism) and evil (anti-Americanism. Many in contact with the White House are said to be worried that he is beginning to lose touch with reality--perhaps resulting from the use of medication that seriously distorts his judgment. Possibly symptomatic of this concern is the increasing number of disaffected government officials who leak embarrassing documents.
  30. Like Hitler, bush takes pleasure in the mythology of frontier justice. As a youth Hitler read and memorized the western novels of Karl May, and Bush retains into his maturity his fascination with simplistic cowboy values. He also exaggerates a cowboy twang despite his C-average elitist education at Andover, Yale, and Harvard.
  31. Like Hitler, Bush misconstrues Darwinism, in Hitler?s case by treating the Aryan race as being superior on an evolutionary basis, in Bush?s case by rejecting science for fundamentalist creationism.
Of course countless differences may be listed between Hitler and President Bush, most of which are to the credit of Bush. Nevertheless, the resemblances listed here are striking, especially since Bush?s first term in office must be compared with Hitler?s performance as German Chancellor through the year 1937, preceding the chain of events immediately preceding World War II. In any case, George W. Bush seems the worst and most dangerous U.S. president in recent memory (for me since Roosevelt)--if not in the entire history of the United States.
The Bush administration is at the top of my list of those who do warrant the comparison to Hitler's regime because there are so many distrubingly close parallels between them and because they are the most immediate, clear and present threat to the rights guaranteed to all Americans under the U.S. Constitution.
 

DealMonkey

Lifer
Nov 25, 2001
13,136
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Interesting that Bremer compared Saddam to the Nazis only two paragraphs into his little rant. Then continued to do so throughout. Nice touch.
Saddam wrote his own version of "Mein Kampf" and saw himself as someone who would unite the Arab world against the west. Do you think the comparison to Hitler is not there?
Or is Bush the only person we are allowed to compare to Hitler these days?

It's over-the-top no matter who you compare to the Nazis. Sure Saddam was a murderous dick who ruled through violence and intimidation, but no one compares to the Nazis, no one. Not even Bush. ;)
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Interesting that Bremer compared Saddam to the Nazis only two paragraphs into his little rant. Then continued to do so throughout. Nice touch.
Saddam wrote his own version of "Mein Kampf" and saw himself as someone who would unite the Arab world against the west. Do you think the comparison to Hitler is not there?
Or is Bush the only person we are allowed to compare to Hitler these days?

It's over-the-top no matter who you compare to the Nazis. Sure Saddam was a murderous dick who ruled through violence and intimidation, but no one compares to the Nazis, no one. Not even Bush. ;)

I think the real problem with the comparison is that as jackschmittusa suggested, even if the situations were identical, that's an argument AGAINST "de-baathification". The "de-nazification" policies after WWII were a pretty big mistake that was quickly corrected, and in Japan we didn't even try anything like that. Obviously the situations aren't the same, but even if it WAS a valid comparison, I think Bremer needs to brush up on his history...that comparison only worked on folks like ProfJohn who apparently slept through that particular subject in school.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,839
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Based on what Bremer is saying the decisions to ditch the army and Baath party were the right ones.

Perhaps someone can provide some thing that shows this to be wrong.

Paul Bremer and his misguided policies in administering Iraq are a major reason-perhaps THE major reason-why things have gone so diasterously wrong there. Even if you (like PJ) think it was a good idea to invade Iraq, and still buy the tinfoil hat idea of links between Saddam and Al-Quaida, a person would have to look awfully far to find some shred of evidence to support Bremer's misguided policies.

As far as something to show Bremer was wrong, just open your eyes to the mess that is now Iraq and the disgrace he has brought to our foreign policy.

I put about as much credibility in what Bremer says as I do with George Tenet. Both are now trying to rewrite history to show that it wasn't them that made the bonehead decisions.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Actually Bremer would not have been such a total disaster if Rummy would have taken the advice of Shinseki and gone in with enough troops. So there is a synergistic effect of total neocon incompetence. One screw up after another becomes greater than the sum of the parts. Yet somehow we are relying on this almost intact team of GWB&co. idiots to get us out of the mess they created? And the only effective instrument GWB knows how to wield is the veto pen.

Never never never let a neocon drive your car. Once they get into the drivers seat you will never get your car back again until the car won't go an inch further. Then they will finally give you the wrecked car back and will then complain that your car is underpowered.

And please don't insult Hitler by comparing GWB to Hitler---Hitler was much more competent and had an unbroken string of early successes. GWB&co. failed first pop out of the box. And when Germany occupied a country, they had an small army of administrators that hit the ground running. Right behind the army and well prepared with a plan that worked.

Its the same thing world wide---the incompetent always fail and muck up everything they touch.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
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Edward Jayne, a retired English professor with experience as a '60s activist, wrote this comparison in 2003 - 2004. In his conclusion, he also refers to "differences [that] may be listed between Hitler and President Bush, most of which are to the credit of Bush," but whether or not you agree with his political stance, if you want to challenge his comparisons, you'll have to do it with facts, or you're blowing smoke:
Jayne's list was more a political statement than a viable case for comparing Bush to Hitler.

Many people like to evoke the image of Hitler because the Nazi regime is the very manifestation of human evil in the name of national sovereignty. The Bush Administration attempted to do so with Saddam Hussein. Jayne demonstrated the folly of such comparisons by turning the tables and using the same comparison against Bush. But I don't believe Jayne's intent was to conclude that Bush=Hitler more than Saddam=Hitler...it was more to expose the futility of such a comparison.

The Bush administration is at the top of my list of those who do warrant the comparison to Hitler's regime because there are so many distrubingly close parallels between them and because they are the most immediate, clear and present threat to the rights guaranteed to all Americans under the U.S. Constitution.

Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Mussolini, Castro, Che, Tito...all of these leaders followed a totalitarian path, although the underlying ideologies and methods used varied.

Unlike the list previously mentioned, Bush has yet to establish a totalitarian regime in America...so having him at the top of your "Hitler" list is a bit silly.



Now, back on thread. Had America followed the model for occupation used in post-war Germany and Japan, we would not be facing the problems we are now encountering in Iraq.

 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
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Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Now, back on thread. Had America followed the model for occupation used in post-war Germany and Japan, we would not be facing the problems we are now encountering in Iraq.
I don?t think you can make that statement.

Both Germany and Japan were utterly defeated after years of war and had no will left to fight. Both countries had also lost millions of people to the war. As ugly and bitter as defeat may have been I think both countries were ready to move away from war.

Iraq is totally different. Our invasion was nearly bloodless so the people we are fighting now never saw the type of massive defeat the Germans and Japanese suffered. Plus you have this influx of outside forces affecting things on the ground. When German was defeated Spain didn?t supply arms to its former ally so it could continue the fight etc.

I will agree with you on one thing though, as usual Harvey has shown how out of touch he is with reality.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
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Both Germany and Japan were utterly defeated after years of war and had no will left to fight. Both countries had also lost millions of people to the war. As ugly and bitter as defeat may have been I think both countries were ready to move away from war.

Not sure I necessarily agree. The German and Japanese war machines were certainly neutralized, but the Nazi and "loyality to the Emperor" ideologies remained even after all the treaties were signed.

American commanders in Europe utilized the German military structure to stabilize the region and hunt down the remaining Nazi fanatics...similarly, American comanders in Japan identified, isolated and eliminated those Japanese forces that refused to surrender. An insurgency never had the opportunity to grow because America:

1. Had sufficient troops on the ground.
2. Utilized the remnants of the defeated nations' military to stabilize the region

Our greatest mistake was to dismantle the Iraqi Army...the Republican Guard needed to go, as did the Baathist loyalists, but the regular Iraqi Army was hardly loyal to Saddam, and could have proven a valuable asset in stabilizing Iraq.

 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
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The Nazis had a major network to get their own out of Germany, many to S. America; acquire funds, and organize for the return of their party to power in Germany. The occupation force was of sufficient strength and focus to keep them out and limit any support they may have wanted from home. Despite their best efforts, they were unable to prevail.

The Japanese had many in the military that still wanted to fight on. Some even stormed the palace under arms to locate the recording ordering the fighting to stop. The thinking was that if they just inflicted enough casualties, the Americans would go home.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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If it wasn't for the fact that thousands of people have died (and many more will die) as a result of the disastrous decisions made by Bremer, I'd say his revisionist / exculpatory writing is funny. Sure Paul, you made all the right calls, which is why it's such a mess right now......
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,059
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Originally posted by: PrevaricatorJohn
I will agree with you on one thing though, as usual Harvey has shown how out of touch he is with reality.
I provide legitimate parallels between Bush and Hitler, and the best you can manage is say I'm out of touch with reality??? :roll:

Doesn't it bother you in the least that your brainless Traitor In Chief is responsible for the 3400 dead and tens of thousands of wounded, scarred and disable American troops as a direct result of his war of LIES?
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As usual, you fail to refute facts, and all you can manage is to is sprew lies and distractions. You remind me of a twist on the title of an old country song...

"Don't It Make Your Blue Eyes Brown?" :laugh:
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Yet Another CYA Apologist.

Bremer is jumping on board the trainwreck headed by Kristol. "Oh no, it wasn't *my* fault. I swear!"

Putrid drivel.