DDR Memory: Latency vs. MHz, need help here!

Hauk

Platinum Member
Nov 22, 2001
2,808
0
0
Man! This memory stuff is confusing. Planning for a dual channel board. Need two 256MB modules. While both Corsair modules I'm considering are CL2 rated, the "low latency" PC3000 module is rated at 2-2-2, 1T, while the PC3500 is rated at 2-3-3,1T. Which of these two would you folks choose:

Corsair PC3000 CL2 "Low Latency"

Corsair PC3500 C2


Any other suggestions helpful!

 

Mikki

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2002
1,488
0
0
yeah, cause a "matched pair" will help you a lot....as long as you're talking about earrings....:p
rolleye.gif
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: LED
If you are usinfg an NForce2 Mobo use THIS

"Nah, I quit.......You buyin'???" -Roy Munson, Kingpin ;)

Yah I want a gig of this stuff...bad....refuse to spend $400 on RAM though....sigh.

Reports are saying there may be cuts in RAM prices, but I think this stuff will be pretty immune to market conditions :(

Chiz

Edit: Well, matched pair is good for peace of mind, and paying another $20 or so when it already costs that much is worth it to most people who don't wanna deal with the guesswork involved with not knowing which part isn't performing, or have to deal with the horror stories of having to RMA to googlegear.
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: Mikki
is worth it to most people who don't wanna deal with the guesswork
guesswork? guesswork for what? guesswork that have two sticks installed? :p
rolleye.gif

Don't know why I'm bothering to explain this to you, it seems like you have problems grasping simple concepts or even putting your own thoughts into coherent or meaningful sentences. :Q
rolleye.gif
:Q:p:):D:Q
rolleye.gif


Buying two that have been "tested" instead of buying two sticks that could be different steppings, batches, mfg. date, plant etc. gives people peace of mind. Its like buying a pair of nice leather shoes or performance running shoes, but one of the pair was last year's model and doesn't quite look or fit right.

Now if you have two parts that need to perform IDENTICALLY in order to achieve a desired result, your overrall performance will only be as good as the lowest performing part. Think "teamwork". If you buy 2 parts that SHOULD perform identically, but somehow don't perform up to spec, you have to begin troubleshooting. Thus begins the long process of testing each stick, determining which is at fault or if it is another component in your system and then dealing with an RMA from Googlegear that slaps you 15% restocking fees and some ungodly shipping cost. To most people, that 10% extra cost is worth it up front, and eliminating ANY GUESSWORK later on. Most importantly, if the part doesn't perform to spec, you can RMA the pair directly to Corsair as a DEFECTIVE product, instead of sending them back 1 at a time until you find your "matching" pair.

Chiz
 

Mikki

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2002
1,488
0
0
Well, you just proved my point, and now I'll try to speak up to your level since my sarcasm obviously didn't take...

We all know that two sticks of, say XMS3000 will perform differently, that's the nature of the beast and always will be. You can never have two sticks of memory that perform exactly the same anymore than you could have 2 cpu's that do. One will always be a little faster, just like you said.

So you plug in those two sticks and they will perform only as fast as the slowest stick, just like you said. Now you have the magic "matched set" that may differ only slightly, but they still will only perform as fast as the slowest stick. There's no way you can get around that. Just like with their regular sticks, the only thing that Corsair can guarantee is that both sticks will run at their rated speed. That's it, this whole thing is a marketing ploy and a waste of money.

And thank you for making the time and effort to explain it to me. :)
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
So the whole point of this exercise was so that you could validate your purchase of XMS 3000 instead of matching XMS 3200 TwinX???? Geez, didn't realize there were fanboy camps WITHIN such a small segment. Get over it, its NOT a marketing ploy. If you're happy with RAM then why do you feel the need to "trash" the newest product??? You might as well never buy anything, its just going to be replaced by something newer faster and better and cost less.

Chiz

To re-emphasize:

Most importantly, if the part doesn't perform to spec, you can RMA the pair directly to Corsair as a DEFECTIVE product, instead of sending them back 1 at a time until you find your "matching" pair.
 

Mikki

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2002
1,488
0
0
So you're telling me that a matching set of XMS3200 or XMS3000 or XMS3500 is going to perform better than two sticks of XMS3200 or XMS3000 or XMS3500, just because they match? Are you serious?

Of course you can send it back if it doesn't perform to spec, you can do that now with their regular memory. If an XMS3200 stick doesn't run at ddr400 at it's rated timings, then it's defective, same with the magic pairs, so how is that special?

I used XMS3000 as an example, plug in any speed if you want. And I don't own XMS3000 (yet) or a GB board, so I don't know where your fanboy slam is coming from...

And yes, I'm definitely slamming this cr@p because people are gonna pay outrageous prices for stuff that's already overpriced and for what? Because the difference between two sticks is less than it would be normally? The difference is still there, and unless you push it to it's limit, you'll never see it, so what's the point?
 

LED

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,127
0
0
Wow am I glad I went to lunch...;)...anyhoots to answer SteelSix orginal ? is I would go for low latency 3200 if you do not get the matching pair...
Now as far as the matching sticks go consider it as 1 guarentee on the product of purchasing twins and performance may be a miniscule better esp @ higher Bus speeds and if the 200MHz squares come out but most definitely won't be worse...marketing ploy yes but a good 1 for the average builder who wants less confusion and has a few xtra $'s to spend
 

Hauk

Platinum Member
Nov 22, 2001
2,808
0
0
Wow, look at what I started. :)

Now I'm a novice; but I'd have to agree with Chizow regarding a matched pair. I'd pay $20.00 bucks extra to know that the pair is guaranteed to run together at the tight timings Corsair claims. Plus, I think about resale value. When it's time to sell and upgrade the the next greatest thing, I'd put together a raunchy auction, with lots of links boasting the compatbility!

Wanna see raunchy? Check out this auction where I just sold my PC2100 Mushkin:

Mushkin PC2100 Auction
 

chizow

Diamond Member
Jun 26, 2001
9,537
2
0
Originally posted by: SteelSix


Mushkin PC2100 Auction

LoL!!! Now THAT's Marketing!!!! Nice presentation, if I didn't know any better I'd have up'ped the bid ;)

Mikki, its pretty clear we are looking at this from different perspectives. I'll present two scenarios:

1) If I were to buy the TwinX matched set, the first thing I would do is drop my multi to 11 or 11.5 and crank my FSB to 200mhz and the timings specified. If it didn't work, I'd send it straight back to Corsair for replacement. If it did work and I got more performance out of it, great, the peace of mind that my sticks are "matched" would allow me to proceed with more confidence and accept the fact that the maximum speed reached between the pair is the maximum I'll get out of the product. No guesswork involved.

2) If I bought two sticks and they DIDN'T perform at 200mhz at the specified timings, I'd be starting a painful and tedious process that I suppose some don't mind going through. I'd have to go through a constant carousel of swapping out parts, testing them, waiting for one stick to return from RMA etc. etc. Not only that, but many boards and dimm modules are adversely affected if you add more dimms. Even if you were able to determine that one stick ran at the specified speed and timings, and the other didn't, there's still no guarantee that two of the same sticks that ran fine individually run without problems together.

Corsair RAM is based on price premiums regardless. We all know the guts behind it is the same stuff you'll find on a PCB that costs half as much. What do you end up paying for? Well since there is no official JEDEC spec greater than DDR 333/PC2700, you are paying for a GUARANTEE from Corsair on your OVERCLOCK. That's all. The concept is no different from paying a premium on two "matching" pairs of their already marked up RAM. Anyways, we'll probably end up agreeing to disagree, but I guess it comes down to what you are willing to go through to get something to work the way it should. I'm willing to pay a little more up front, but I guess I already said that.

Chiz
 

Mikki

Golden Member
Jun 13, 2002
1,488
0
0
chizow, I apologize for getting huffy about this...I'm frustrated because I don't feel I'm getting my point across. If you've seen my posts in this forum, you know I'm a very happy guy and I try to avoid conflict...:)

Okay, my turn...hehe :p
1) If I were to buy the TwinX matched set, the first thing I would do is drop my multi to 11 or 11.5 and crank my FSB to 200mhz and the timings specified. If it didn't work, I'd send it straight back to Corsair for replacement. If it did work and I got more performance out of it, great,
Absolutely. As with any Corsair module, if it doesn't perform at it's rated speed and rated timings, then send that stuff back!! ;)
the peace of mind that my sticks are "matched" would allow me to proceed with more confidence and accept the fact that the maximum speed reached between the pair is the maximum I'll get out of the product. No guesswork involved.
This is where we differ. What I'm trying to say is that being "matched" has nothing to do with this stuff running at it's rated speed. Period. Until recently with the XMS3500, I hadn't seen a single module that wouldn't run at it's rated speed. Most of them overclocked just fine even! I still maintain that if you stick a pair of this new ram in a DC board and crank it to it's rated speed, that has nothing to do with the sticks being "matched", they are simply running at their rated speed.

If you go out and buy 2 sticks of the same memory (whether it be XMS2700, 3000, whatever) and stuck it in that board it would do the same thing. It would run at it's rated speed regardless of the fact that they don't "match".

If I bought two sticks and they DIDN'T perform at 200mhz at the specified timings, I'd be starting a painful and tedious process that I suppose some don't mind going through. I'd have to go through a constant carousel of swapping out parts, testing them, waiting for one stick to return from RMA etc. etc.
No, you'd send it back because if it doesn't run at it's rated speed and timings, like Corsair guarantees with every stick (magic or not), then it's defective.
Not only that, but many boards and dimm modules are adversely affected if you add more dimms.
Yep, that's a fact, but that's the fault of the mobo, not the ram, and Corsair would most likely tell you that.
Even if you were able to determine that one stick ran at the specified speed and timings, and the other didn't, there's still no guarantee that two of the same sticks that ran fine individually run without problems together.
There's no "multiple stick" clause that I know about, a guarantee is a guarantee.
Anyways, we'll probably end up agreeing to disagree
lol! yeah, probably...but that's cool, as long as there isn't any bad blood...;)

Another scenario:
Corsair memory in all it's forms is guaranteed to run at it's rated speed and timings...period. Agreed?

Okay, let's say you buy two sticks of XMS3200, rated at ddr400 and 2.5-3-3-6, and it runs that fine (if it didn't, we'd rma it according to Corsair's guarantee).
Stick 1 maxes out ddr420 at 2.5-3-3-7
Stick 2 maxes out ddr425 at 2.5-3-3-7
Both sticks run at their rated speed and timings and both sticks will run fine in a DC board, despite the difference.

Now you buy some magic XMS3200, rated at ddr400 and 2.5-3-3-6
Stick 1 maxes out ddr420 at 2.5-3-3-7
Stick 2 maxes out ddr421 at 2.5-3-3-7
Both sticks run at their rated speed and timings, the difference between the magic set and the other is that the magic set has a much smaller difference than the other set.

Both sets run in the DC board just fine, both run only as fast as the slowest stick, do you see? There's no guesswork involved, the difference between the sticks is just smaller (like I said, no two sticks can match perfectly), and that, to me, is not worth the price.

:);)

SteelSix, sorry about cr@pping in your thread...:eek:
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
Crucial is better than Corsair and my dad can beat up your dad

:D j/k but maybe that'll make people realize the silliness here

Not many people here are trying to help SteelSix... just advertising their knowledge and the parts they bought.

No need to justify your expenses to us here...

SteelSix... they both look like quality pieces... I would go with the cheapest of the two myself. I've messed around with RAM timing and such with my PNY PC2100 stuff and the only improvement I saw was from the CAS setting... so if they're both CAS 2, pick the cheaper one. They're both tested and approved to run at 200 Mhz, so go for it... you can probably run them at 166 and lower the timing a little more if you're that concerned with every point you can get in PCMark. Which to be honest, is the only place you see the benefits of overclocking and fine tuning your RAM... I defy anybody here to tell me they can tell the difference between CAS 2 and CAS 2.5 in any real world application.
 

THUGSROOK

Elite Member
Feb 3, 2001
11,847
0
0
i kinda havta agree with mikki here...

if you buy some xms3200 it will be rated 400ddr cas2-3-3-7
if you buy a matched pair of xms3200 it will be rated 400ddr cas2-3-3-7

so where does the matching come in? and the extra $20?

im willing to guess that the matched pairs overclock worse then the unmatched stuff :Q ;)
am i making sense here?
 

THUGSROOK

Elite Member
Feb 3, 2001
11,847
0
0
good point ~ i think its time to "multi-rate" sticks of ram!

pc2700 @ cas 2-2-2-6
pc3200 @ cas 2-3-3-6

like that

;)
 

Rhett

Member
Aug 13, 2002
86
0
0
Thugs & Mikki make perfect sense :)

There is nothing special about the "matched" pair to make them better than an unmatched pair. They will not perform better than an unmatched pair just perform closer to each other. That is NOT an advantage. At there rated speeds a unmatched pair will peform just as well as these "matched" pairs, unless the sticks are defetive & then they would be replaced for free, and ALL the xms sticks have that guarantee.
 

LED

Diamond Member
Oct 12, 1999
6,127
0
0
I'd like to point out that Corsair does not make the chips put on their RAM and PCB's. They have been known to have a couple revisions on their same Titled RAM with different chips (ie.Winbond Samsung)...the TwinX guarentees matching chips as well as have been tested in Unison. It's not like that buying it different would not work nor perform worse...it's a piece of mind purchase...Most of us experienced builders could prolly care less but my intial response came when I saw that SteelSix had 70 some posts....Finally to each there own does not make anyone right and I think we can all be happy of the various choices we have and keep in mind where we are officially with FSB @ 133MHz limited to a total of 2.1GB bandwith and 166 with a 2.7GB limit ...JEDEC Spec and so forth...to state 1 route is better then the other just doesn't get it here...
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
Originally posted by: THUGSROOK
good point ~ i think its time to "multi-rate" sticks of ram!

pc2700 @ cas 2-2-2-6
pc3200 @ cas 2-3-3-6

like that

;)

Can you imagine all the tech support calls and RMA requests?

Customer: "It says 2-2-2-6, and it won't run at that"

Tech Support Operator: "Are you running it at 166 or 200?"

C: "200"

T: "Well, it's multi-rated, it only runs at 2-2-2-6 at 166 Mhz"

C: "Oh, dat shyt is whack dawg!"