(DC thread) If the Nazis hadn't 'gone Holocaust', what would the legacy have been?

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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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I think even if the Jewish issue were removed from the calculation, Nazi's would be still widely reviled/hated. When your country/city/home is being bombed to h3ll and your family and friends killed, tortured and/or imprisoned you don't need any other reason to hate them.

Though once you've got a generation who weren't directly targeted in WW2, hate due to bombing quickly dissipates IMO.

And frankly, even with the Holocaust, neo-Nazis and their supporters are still a thing, and not just a 'one in a million' kook in a basement. I very much doubt that there were many neo-Nazis for say 30 years after WW2 for the reason stated in the first sentence of my response.
 

potzocalli

Member
Jun 18, 2003
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Back to the original posting. If they had not gone Holocaust, one great achievement they did manage was to do was to renew Germany´s economy from the post-WWI crisis that helped them get to power. People were hopeless about the future and the National Party had a great PR (Public Relations) team. Nice uniforms, lavish parades, masses chanting and very nice speeches.... "Make Germany Great Again" ....lol .
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Back to the original posting. If they had not gone Holocaust, one great achievement they did manage was to do was to renew Germany´s economy from the post-WWI crisis that helped them get to power. People were hopeless about the future and the National Party had a great PR (Public Relations) team. Nice uniforms, lavish parades, masses chanting and very nice speeches.... "Make Germany Great Again" ....lol .

All of which was negated when they lost a world war that they started and much of the country and its people were destroyed.

Their legacy would have been better without the genocide, no doubt. But not good at all.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
17,661
9,490
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Back to the original posting. If they had not gone Holocaust, one great achievement they did manage was to do was to renew Germany´s economy from the post-WWI crisis that helped them get to power. People were hopeless about the future and the National Party had a great PR (Public Relations) team. Nice uniforms, lavish parades, masses chanting and very nice speeches.... "Make Germany Great Again" ....lol .

Wasn't their "renewal" of Germany's economy largely down to slave labour (and theft of possessions) contributing to a war machine though?
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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probably be seen a bit like Napoleonic france.

odd that autocorrect capitalizes Napoleonic but not france.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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probably be seen a bit like Napoleonic france.

My grasp of that chapter of history is postcard-sized, but I was quite surprised when I recently learnt that he has an expensive-looking tomb in France, considering that (as I understand it), he was considered a usurper and banished.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
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My grasp of that chapter of history is postcard-sized, but I was quite surprised when I recently learnt that he has an expensive-looking tomb in France, considering that (as I understand it), he was considered a usurper and banished.
he was exiled twice, not by the French, but by the Sixth and Seventh Coalitions, after the capture of Paris in 1814 and the battle of waterloo in 1815, respectively.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
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Genocide is the inevitable logical conclusion of Nazi ideology, so IMO there is no timeline in which the Nazis do not 'go holocaust,' except in those timelines in which Nazism never rises to power.
There are many nationalists who believe that their ideology can be benign. They are mistaken. No nation has ever been monolithic in race and culture, and even if one were, nationalists would create ever stricter purity tests in order to marginalize undesirables within their population. The end result is always genocide.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
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Genocide is the inevitable logical conclusion of Nazi ideology, so IMO there is no timeline in which the Nazis do not 'go holocaust,' except in those timelines in which Nazism never rises to power.
There are many nationalists who believe that their ideology can be benign. They are mistaken. No nation has ever been monolithic in race and culture, and even if one were, nationalists would create ever stricter purity tests in order to marginalize undesirables within their population. The end result is always genocide.

Thus speaks a liberal.

I like you.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
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Genocide is the inevitable logical conclusion of Nazi ideology, so IMO there is no timeline in which the Nazis do not 'go holocaust,' except in those timelines in which Nazism never rises to power.

It may be the logical conclusion, but how often are people logical? 1984 talks about the downfall of most regimes being hypocrisy.
 

HotJob

Member
Apr 27, 2017
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Without the Shoah, Hitler is just Napoleon - aggressive law enforcement and invasion of other countries. With the same result: other countries banding together to defeat him and a mixed bag of people who either admired or despised him.

Edit: Credit to Sandorski- Great minds think alike
 

NoSoupforyou

Member
Dec 20, 2016
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V2 rocket to Saturn V to the moon. I think it "funny" that at the same time they were having the Nuremberg trials of ex Nazis for war crimes, The USA made one of the ex Nazis head of NASA (Wernher Von Braun). The V2 program used slave labour that killed thousands (12000)

If the Treaty of Versailles wasnt so harsh and unfair probably no WW2. Why was Germany bad for having a quest for empire and colonies but the USA and Britain were not?

As for Germany taking over countries in the 1930's, Up until 1919 those countries did not exist. All the land being conquered were formally part of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

If killing 6000,000 people is bad (only when Germany does it?) why no outrage at the USSR for the deliberate killing of over 4000,000 by an artificial famine imposed by Stalin's regime on Soviet Ukraine

"On November 28th 2006, the Verkhovna Rada (Parliament of Ukraine) passed a decree defining the Holodomor as a deliberate Act of Genocide. Although the Russian government continues to call Ukraine's depiction of the famine a "one-sided falsification of history," it is recognized as genocide by approximately two dozen nations, and is now the focus of considerable international research and documentation."

Then there is the firebombing of the German city Dresden. If the Germans did the same thing to a British city it would be called a war crime.

"The bombing was controversial because Dresden was neither important to German wartime production nor a major industrial center"

This happened in mid February 1945. There was no point to this attack. The war was lost and ended 2 months later. The 2 day attack killed from 35000 to 135000 civilians.
 

Ventanni

Golden Member
Jul 25, 2011
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The fire bombing of Dresden was highly controversial, yes. By that point in the war, most of Germany's war industry and the bulk of what was left of the Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe, and Kriegsmarine had been destroyed. And yet, they were still fighting tooth and nail for every inch of ground. War casualties by late 44' and 1945 were catastrophically high as Germany had suffered enormous losses on both the Eastern and Western fronts. Old men and young boys were being conscripted and needlessly killed by allied armies, and the Axis had successfully switched their propaganda from it being a war of conquest to a war of survival. On top of that, you also had an incredible amount of civilian displacement occurring as the German armies collapsed, and the people feared retribution. One of the untold horrors that occurred was the loss of life that happened after the war ended as a result of these mass migrations.

And so you had these controversial actions happen like Dresden where it was partly an Allied attempt to end the war. "Just f'ing give up already!", the Allies would say, as the Axis Armies would just not quit. The culmination of these types of acts were the atomic bombs. It does not justify acts like Dresden, no, but you have to understand the unimaginable carnage witnessed by this generation, who were all so desperate to end the war.

The Second War World truly was the most destructive, wasteful, and horrific wars of modern history. That is the legacy of the Nazi regime.
 

inachu

Platinum Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,387
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There already was a Holocaust before the nazi's were known as bad people.
It was 1918 and over 35 million russian christians were killed by Bolshevik jews in russia
which is why Bolshevikes in Russia today are shunned and chased after by skinheads who are seen as hero's because they go after the Bolsheviks who were proud of those millions of deaths.

The Russians have their #NEVERFORGET movement as well and in the 1980 to this very day on
sundays you can sometimes catch videos of a service called "ON WINGS OF ANGELS"

To fly those shamed Bolsheviks out of Russia to be flown to Israel.