Dawkins' "The God Delusion": One of the best books I've read in a while.

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
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Dawkins has been in the news a fair bit lately because of this book and I finally got around to reading it yesterday. Even though I read about the book from editorials, blogs and other such sources I was surprised at how little of its contents I knew beforehand. Sadly, this is because instead of talking about the content of the book, most people did not get past its topic.

Whether in South Park, on The Globe and Mail's editorial page, or even here in the last Dawkins thread I posted (link), people call him mean, a bully, disrespectful, a dick etc. His 'crime' is not that he is any of these things but merely that he choses to speak about religion. People have bestowed such a hallowed place for religion in society that merely discussing it in a frank and reasonable manner is enough to cause such hostility and outrage. If instead of religion his book concerned politics, he'd be treated as a reasonable critic, far, far removed from such crazies as Coulter. It's sad, but this special religious respect is political correctness gone absolutely mad - its not that you can't use certain words but you can't question vast swathes of very important ideas that people hold!

For those who don't find the idea of discussing religion the way you'd discuss foreign policy outrageous, I highly recommend this book. Contrary to what you might have read/heard, he isn't a strong atheist (but apart from the stupid 'rebel' teenagers, who is?) and he doesn't actually disprove god (as no reasonable person should expect anyone to do), he just offers his view of why there probably isn't one. The part on god actually covers only 2 of the 10 chapters, with the rest talking about religion, morality, etc.

My mind was not changed by the book since my views weren't much different from his (ie, technically agnostic, though sceptic of a deity's existence), but I did find his reasoning and views to be much more well thought-out, complete and resting on much firmer ground than mine. But I suppose that's why he's the one writing these books and I'm the one reading them ;) In any case, its definitely worth a read even if you already agree to varying degrees with a position like his. To top it all off, the last part of the last chapter is one of the most inspirational things I've read in a long time.


This being ATOT, here is the Cliff:
Regardless of your position, but provided that you do not mind discussing religion in frank and open terms, this is a very interesting, inspirational, enlightening and definitely worthwhile read which doesn't deserve the bad press its gotten.
 

oogabooga

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2003
7,806
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it's gotten some bad press since he does come off as a bully for his point of view (as it is a bit extreme). I read the piece in Time about God vs Science, and I think he represented the "anti-God" point of view and it seemed he's respectful but overtly matter of fact kind of individual.
 

db

Lifer
Dec 6, 1999
10,575
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[checking to see if I'm in Politics & Religion or Off Topic]

Religion is even more of a touchy subject than politics. People don't like to have their beliefs questioned. The resist it; they fight it. They want to protect their beliefs, some to the extent of forcing others via laws or eliminating laws, in their favor. I don't expect that this will ever change, no matter how far civilization "progresses".
 

0

Golden Member
Jul 22, 2003
1,270
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Originally posted by: db
[checking to see if I'm in Politics & Religion or Off Topic]

Religion is even more of a touchy subject than politics. People don't like to have their beliefs questioned. The resist it; they fight it. They want to protect their beliefs, some to the extent of forcing others via laws or eliminating laws, in their favor. I don't expect that this will ever change, no matter how far civilization "progresses".

Wow db, first post I've seen of you outside 'what are you listening to..." :confused:
 
Dec 27, 2001
11,272
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Originally posted by: db
[checking to see if I'm in Politics & Religion or Off Topic]

Religion is even more of a touchy subject than politics. People don't like to have their beliefs questioned. The resist it; they fight it. They want to protect their beliefs, some to the extent of forcing others via laws or eliminating laws, in their favor. I don't expect that this will ever change, no matter how far civilization "progresses".

So you're saying that you haven't questioned your beliefs?
 

ChooChooChooseMe

Platinum Member
Apr 7, 2005
2,746
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Originally posted by: db
[checking to see if I'm in Politics & Religion or Off Topic]

Religion is even more of a touchy subject than politics. People don't like to have their beliefs questioned. The resist it; they fight it. They want to protect their beliefs, some to the extent of forcing others via laws or eliminating laws, in their favor. I don't expect that this will ever change, no matter how far civilization "progresses".
Uh, its Politics & News. :disgust:
 
Nov 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: ChooChooChooseMe
Originally posted by: db
[checking to see if I'm in Politics & Religion or Off Topic]

Religion is even more of a touchy subject than politics. People don't like to have their beliefs questioned. The resist it; they fight it. They want to protect their beliefs, some to the extent of forcing others via laws or eliminating laws, in their favor. I don't expect that this will ever change, no matter how far civilization "progresses".
Uh, its Politics & News. :disgust:

and being a tech forum, ATOT is supposedly populated by individuals smarter than the average
 

Dedpuhl

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
10,370
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The flying spaghetti monster is an imposter.

Hallowed are the Ori.


[I do want to buy it and read it eventually]
 

Seekermeister

Golden Member
Oct 3, 2006
1,971
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I have no problem with anyone being skeptical about God. Nor do I mind that someone should speak, either in questions or statements that would make this apparent. However, when a person writes a book, which clearly denounces God, this is a step beyond. Even from the comments of the OP, it is obvious that it is impossible for anyone to disprove God. Therefore, all that is left is that someone simply airs their own beliefs, which are based primarily on their own biases. If a person has nothing more than this, then the only reason for writing such a book, is either for profit, notoriety or political influence.

The fact that the writer didn't stick with simply the subject of God, is because he had in mind politics in the first place. However, there is not a subject on this Earth this is apart from God...especially politics. If it seems strange that he should get such a response from the religious sectors, it shouldn't, because anyone that understands religion knows that religion is the backbone of all politics, regardless of how secular they might seem.
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
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Even from the comments of the OP, it is obvious that it is impossible for anyone to disprove God.

Yeah but he can address it from a probability/statistics point of view based on ALL the current evidence. That is what he does. He explains why it is such LONG odds that a God does exist. And there is almost certainly no "personal" god.
 

DAGTA

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,172
1
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Originally posted by: Codewiz

Even from the comments of the OP, it is obvious that it is impossible for anyone to disprove God.

Yeah but he can address it from a probability/statistics point of view based on ALL the current evidence. That is what he does. He explains why it is such LONG odds that a God does exist. And there is almost certainly no "personal" god.


Based on his selected view of what is considered evidence.

No one will ever be able to prove God does not exist. That is not possible.
 

Seekermeister

Golden Member
Oct 3, 2006
1,971
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Codewiz,

Your probability/statistics is based on nothing that has anything to do with God, except that the universe is His creation. Like any creation, such as a painting, there is plenty of evidence of the creator, if a person has the eyes to see it. Your latter statement about "no personal God" is likewise based more on your own biased perceptions, than by any evidence. But, that is to be expected, because if you have no personal God, you couldn't possibly know anything about Him.
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
5,758
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Originally posted by: DAGTA
Originally posted by: Codewiz

Even from the comments of the OP, it is obvious that it is impossible for anyone to disprove God.

Yeah but he can address it from a probability/statistics point of view based on ALL the current evidence. That is what he does. He explains why it is such LONG odds that a God does exist. And there is almost certainly no "personal" god.


Based on his selected view of what is considered evidence.

No one will ever be able to prove God does not exist. That is not possible.

He doesn't have to prove it doesn't exist. Just like we don't have to prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist.

He does take the time to point out SCIENTIFICALLY why the odds are against a God existing. Why don't you do the same showing SCIENTIFICALLY why odds are that a God does exist.

 

ChooChooChooseMe

Platinum Member
Apr 7, 2005
2,746
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Originally posted by: IAteYourMother
Originally posted by: ChooChooChooseMe
Originally posted by: db
[checking to see if I'm in Politics & Religion or Off Topic]

Religion is even more of a touchy subject than politics. People don't like to have their beliefs questioned. The resist it; they fight it. They want to protect their beliefs, some to the extent of forcing others via laws or eliminating laws, in their favor. I don't expect that this will ever change, no matter how far civilization "progresses".
Uh, its Politics & News. :disgust:

and being a tech forum, ATOT is supposedly populated by individuals smarter than the average
Yes but we all know that isnt true. :p
 
Dec 10, 2005
26,049
9,520
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Originally posted by: db
[checking to see if I'm in Politics & Religion or Off Topic]

Religion is even more of a touchy subject than politics. People don't like to have their beliefs questioned. The resist it; they fight it. They want to protect their beliefs, some to the extent of forcing others via laws or eliminating laws, in their favor. I don't expect that this will ever change, no matter how far civilization "progresses".

The movie, "Dogma," put it in perspective. People die over beliefs. It is best to have a "good idea" about it all.
 

DAGTA

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,172
1
0
Originally posted by: Codewiz
Originally posted by: DAGTA
Originally posted by: Codewiz

Even from the comments of the OP, it is obvious that it is impossible for anyone to disprove God.

Yeah but he can address it from a probability/statistics point of view based on ALL the current evidence. That is what he does. He explains why it is such LONG odds that a God does exist. And there is almost certainly no "personal" god.


Based on his selected view of what is considered evidence.

No one will ever be able to prove God does not exist. That is not possible.

He doesn't have to prove it doesn't exist. Just like we don't have to prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist.

He does take the time to point out SCIENTIFICALLY why the odds are against a God existing. Why don't you do the same showing SCIENTIFICALLY why odds are that a God does exist.

Because I don't want to? Science is a tool to me, not something I worship. Mankind's understanding of nature (labeled Science) is flawed.
 

blackllotus

Golden Member
May 30, 2005
1,875
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As our understanding of the universe grows, the possible places for a supernatural being quickly diminish. Science has already shown that a god is unnecessary for the creation of almost everything in the universe, including ourselves. The only real issue that is left that the existence of a god could possibly resolve is how our universe was created. However, I suspect that science will sometime be able to explain the creation of our universe as well.
 

Codewiz

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2002
5,758
0
76
Originally posted by: DAGTA
Originally posted by: Codewiz
Originally posted by: DAGTA
Originally posted by: Codewiz

Even from the comments of the OP, it is obvious that it is impossible for anyone to disprove God.

Yeah but he can address it from a probability/statistics point of view based on ALL the current evidence. That is what he does. He explains why it is such LONG odds that a God does exist. And there is almost certainly no "personal" god.


Based on his selected view of what is considered evidence.

No one will ever be able to prove God does not exist. That is not possible.

He doesn't have to prove it doesn't exist. Just like we don't have to prove the flying spaghetti monster doesn't exist.

He does take the time to point out SCIENTIFICALLY why the odds are against a God existing. Why don't you do the same showing SCIENTIFICALLY why odds are that a God does exist.

Because I don't want to? Science is a tool to me, not something I worship. Mankind's understanding of nature (labeled Science) is flawed.

LoL, I don't worship science. However what great things has religion gotten man? Nothing. What has science given to man? Computers, vaccines, cures, power, flight....................

Because you don't want to? Whatever, it is because it CAN'T be done. If it could then you could shutup Dawkins.....don't think people would love to. Dawkins is scientifically speaking the truth.

So either believe in your Bible and that it is infallible and that we should put to death non-believers and adulterers or you can see the light that science provides.
 

VenomXTF

Senior member
May 3, 2004
341
15
81
Seek, where's your evidence. As you yourself said, your view of God is also "based more on your own biased perceptions, than by any evidence."
 

Seekermeister

Golden Member
Oct 3, 2006
1,971
0
0
Codewiz,

He does take the time to point out SCIENTIFICALLY why the odds are against a God existing. Why don't you do the same showing SCIENTIFICALLY why odds are that a God does exist.
Since it is not possible to prove that God doesn't exist, it would be equally difficult to prove that He does...at least by terms that you would understand. Therefore it would be folly to attempt to do so. However, I will say that science has no evidence that would support your conjecture that the odds/statistics that you suggest have any foundation.
 

DAGTA

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
8,172
1
0
Originally posted by: Codewiz


LoL, I don't worship science. However what great things has religion gotten man? Nothing. What has science given to man? Computers, vaccines, cures, power, flight....................

Because you don't want to? Whatever, it is because it CAN'T be done. If it could then you could shutup Dawkins.....don't think people would love to. Dawkins is scientifically speaking the truth.

So either believe in your Bible and that it is infallible and that we should put to death non-believers and adulterers or you can see the light that science provides.

Quite extremists points of view you have. Seems like you have some emotional stake in this.