Dang! Any quad skaters out there?

[Muse]

Been doing it continuously for 33 years. Never suffered an injury of any consequence except for 3 times. Each of those was because wheels came off my skates while I was gung ho skating. First time was right at the beginning, before I got my reasonable-quality Sure Grip Jogger plates & trucks, which I have skated ever since.

That first accident was on a pair of cheap skates I picked up in a thrift store and the front wheels just came off while I was skating an asphalt path around a lake and it took a year to get over the sprain to my wrist(s).

2nd and 3rd accidents happened this last year. Around last Xmas a wheel came off (axle nut came off) and left leg still hurts in bed. 4 months later a king pin broke without warning and front wheels shot ahead of me and down I went on the pavement again, going ~10mph. I'm still doing physical therapy to my badly sprained dominant hand pinky. That injury was very painful. Hand surgeon wanted to get after it with a scalpel but 2nd opinion from his colleague was to straight splint it 6+ weeks and more therapy, so I escaped the OR.

Well here's the deal: The broken king pin caught me by surprise, I wasn't aware that could happen, but I met a skateboarder who said that happens all the time and I should try to make sure my king pins are tough and/or changed with frequency.

The axle nut that came off last ~Xmas wasn't a complete shock: the skate shop owner who sold me my Joggers told me I should change those axle nuts when I remove/replace my wheels, but I didn't take him seriously enough. That recent accident over 30 years later underscored the importance of that.

Now, a week or so ago I was shocked and very very lucky. I had new hardware on the skates (new trucks, wheels, bearings and axle nuts). I'd skated them maybe 50 miles only on the street. I was standing on my front lawn and the inside left wheel on the right skate came off. I had skated a couple blocks and doubled back when I realized I was wearing the wrong glasses (lucky I did!). I'm WTF! I had checked the axle nuts before lacing on the skates! I could have been seriously injured. I started to think... what can I do to prevent those nuts from coming off "by themselves?" I got the idea of thread locking compounds. I have some but it's old. I just ordered and received new stuff, and I'm going to use it today, then wait 24 hours before skating again.

I started thinking some more: Both times my axle nuts worked there way off by themselves it was nuts on the left side of a skate. One was on the front (devastation), the other on the back (didn't fall because I was standing still). Why on earth don't they reverse thread the axles (and nuts) on the left side of quad skates??? It is obvious to me that the direction of rotation of the wheels will work to work off axle nuts on the left side of quad skates if they are conventionally threaded. AFAIK, reverse threading on those left axles and nuts is not done for quad skates. Maybe it is, but I have not heard of it. In fact, my searches aren't coming up with a whole lot about using thread locking compounds to prevent quad skate axle nuts from working their way loose, however reverse threading left-side axles & nuts would make that unnecessary.

What do you make of these things?

 

[BoomerD]

 

[lxskllr]

There shouldn't be any rotation against the nut. They clamp down on the bearing race, no? Try using locktite.

 

[Muse]

There shouldn't be any rotation against the nut. They clamp down on the bearing race, no? Try using locktite.

The nut is adjacent to the bearing shield, so yeah, spin the wheel and the bearing shield rotates and the nut is stationary, so some friction there and evidently enough to rotate the damn nut off the axle if there's not enough resistance from the locknut. Thread locker would help, yes, hopefully enough to keep me out of the emergency room.

Reviews of the stuff I received yesterday (plan on using it today) suggest it's as good or better than blue Loctite 243. One prominent reviewer conducted tests, measuring torque required to defeat it as measured against that for Loctite 243 and this product came out the clear winner. It sells at a fraction of the cost of Loctite 243:

Blue Threadlocker M-243 Medium Strength 1.69 Oz(50 ml) Lock Tight & Seal Fasteners Anaerobic Curing Metal Glue

It's supposed to have some tolerance for oil (and hopefully for plastic, or whatever it is that locknuts use, maybe nylon?), but I'm thinking maybe not as much as the Loctite blue 243. It's just hard to tell, trying to parse the manufacturers' statements, which appear to me quite unscientific.

Edit: This review at Amazon was for the 242 product, which presumably doesn't have the extended effectiveness against oil and uncleaned surfaces and effectiveness with plastic.


The Toolman
VINE VOICE
5.0 out of 5 stars Read below to see how it compares to Loctite 242
Reviewed in the United States on February 3, 2022
Model: M-242 / 0.4 Fl ozVine Customer Review of Free Product( What's this? )
I read several of the reviews and questions about this product and most compare or ask how it compares to Loctite 242 but none scientifically answered that that question so my goal was to provide comparative data on how they compare.

The bottle looks just like Loctite 242 and even uses the "242" nomenclature in the name. It is 0.4 oz vs. 0.34 oz. for the Loctite Brand. Cost is about 1/3rd the Loctite brand. To unseal the bottle, you must cut the top off with a sharp knife. I found the cap on the Eskonke brand easily cross-threads when you try to put it back on, which was a nuisance. The Eskonke thread-locker is a blue translucent gel as opposed to Loctite brand, which is a blue opaque liquid. The viscosity of the Eskonke is thicker than Loctite, which I liked because it is not as drippy.

To test and compare the two products, I clamped two 1/4" bolts in the vise and applied both Loctite 242 and Eskonke 242 to a 1/4" net and tightened it down to 22 in. lb. (2.5nM) using a torque wrench. You need to apply a minimum torque 15 in. lb. for the product to set. I chose 15 in. lb. because it is about half of the rated breakaway strength of the Eskonke product. I let both products set for 24 hours then proceeded to see how much torque was required to loosen the nut. The Loctite brand broke away at at about 5nM, lightly less than its rated 5.6nM breakaway torque. The Eskonke product took 7.9nM (70 in. lb.) to break away, which is about 1.6 times its rated breakaway torque of 4.9nM.

So to summarize, the Eskonke product is stronger than it is rated. This can be good or bad, depending on your application. For example, if you are using this on larger hardware that you don't want coming loose, then this product performs well. It actually outperforms Loctite brand and costs about 1/3rd the price. However, if you are using this for fine hardware, like RC car or helicopter use, it may be too strong and you may break or strip hardware using this product. In that instance, you would want to spend the extra money on the Loctite product. This product is spec-ed for use on M6-M19 bolts and you will not break an M6 bolt with 8nM of torque. The RC use, is an off-label application of a product intended for larger hardware so I did not remove any stars because it was stronger than stated.

I hope this review was helpful.

 

[Muse]

There shouldn't be any rotation against the nut. They clamp down on the bearing race, no? Try using locktite.

When I tighten the nuts, I do so enough to impede rotation then back off ~1/4 turn or enough to feel discernible play when wiggling the wheel (this is the m.o. you see explained everywhere, AFAIK). IOW, the wheel spins freely. However, in the course of skating there are side to side forces which will necessarily put pressure on the nut from the wheel, evidently enough to rotate it with respect to the axle on the 2 nuts that have come off so far. This is why reverse threading on the left axles and nuts would be a solution to this dangerous design.

A google search on "quad skates reverse threading on left axles" turns up nothing!

quad skates reverse threading on left axles - Google Suche

 

[soulcougher73]

Surprised their isn’t some kind of hair pin/ cotter pin to keep the nut from just falling off over time.

 

[Muse]

Surprised their isn’t some kind of hair pin/ cotter pin to keep the nut from just falling off over time.

The crazy thing is the Sure Grip trucks' axles seem too short to me. There's actually a little bit of the plastic gripper of the locknuts that protrudes past the end of the axles! I have, I think, just one truck whose axles are longer, I think by something like 1/4 inch. I have no idea where I got it or where I could get others. If I could get trucks with longer axles that fit my skates I could maybe work out something, drill holes in them and insert a cotter pin, a wire or whatever that would prevent the nuts from coming off, which lets the wheel fly off the skate and has you falling to the surface you're skating on... which for me is asphalt.

 

[Muse]

Today I removed the axle nuts on the left side of both my quad skates, removed the wheels. Then I took a rag and tried to clean the threads at the end of the 4 exposed axles. Put the wheels back on and, with the end of a screwdriver I applied a drop of the medium strength thread locker, then put new lock nuts on, tightened them until the free spinning of the wheels was impaired. Then I backed off the nuts about 1/4 turn, so the wheels will spin freely.

I am wondering if the thread locking compound will actually help. Its instructions say it is not to be used on plastic. The nuts have some plastic but there's some steel that will go on the steel axles. I have seen info that the thread locking compound works when there is sufficient pressure, i.e. 15lb, so maybe it is only designed to work if a nut is actually tightened up on an axle. On skates, they are not. They are loose so the wheel can spin. There's a thin washer on the other side of the wheel where the wheel meets the truck. There's a little space between that washer and the wheel, the space that's gained by backing the nut off 1/4 turn from where it would be if tight. The only thing keeping the nut from coming off is the plastic part of the nut, presumably nylon except that it isn't the typical whitish color of nylon, that plastic is black. Hell if I know if this thread locking compound will actually help prevent the nuts from backing off. For all I know, it will make things worse, i.e. maybe it will loosen the grip of the plastic in the lock nut against the axle! Goddamn poor design if you ask me. Quad skates seem like a nightmare in terms of safety. Somebody should offer quad skates with reverse thread on the left axles and their nuts. As soulcougher73 said, longer axles with holes allowing a cotter pin would certainly be a major contributor to safety.

 

[BoomerD]

I really doubt threadlocker compound will work on nylon locking nuts.

Is it possible the wheels you're running are too wide for the trucks?

I haven't skated in over 50 years, but I used to speed skate competitively. There were different wheels and truck sets. Wider wooden racing wheels used different trucks than the Urethane wheels I used for "fun" skating. I never had a wheel fall off...not ever, and I changed my racing wheels at least a couple of times every year.

 

[WilliamM2]

Don't you have a spacer between the two bearings on the wheel? That's how we did it on skateboards and skates in my youth. Then you crank the axle nut down as tight as you want, it will not touch the bearing seals, and they don't spin, or drag on the wheel. In 20 years of boarding I never had a wheel come off. Never heard of it happening on skates either.

 

[Muse]

I really doubt threadlocker compound will work on nylon locking nuts.

Is it possible the wheels you're running are too wide for the trucks?

I haven't skated in over 50 years, but I used to speed skate competitively. There were different wheels and truck sets. Wider wooden racing wheels used different trucks than the Urethane wheels I used for "fun" skating. I never had a wheel fall off...not ever, and I changed my racing wheels at least a couple of times every year.

I theorized that the Kryptonics 70mm wheels I have ALWAYS skated were too wide, which would account for the axles not being long enough. So, I bought a different brand and they arrived a couple days ago:

65mm diameter, 36mm wide (where the rubber meets the road, not the distance between the inner wall and the outside of the outside bearing, which is what seems too wide). But it appears that it's the same problem, i.e. same dimension as the Kryptonics.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09XT9YPFN?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

 

[Muse]

Don't you have a spacer between the two bearings on the wheel? That's how we did it on skateboards and skates in my youth. Then you crank the axle nut down as tight as you want, it will not touch the bearing seals, and they don't spin, or drag on the wheel. In 20 years of boarding I never had a wheel come off. Never heard of it happening on skates either.

I've had wheels come off twice in less than a year. Still have the painful injuries to remind me!

No spacer, how would that work? The wheels are designed to force in the bearings and you put that over a thin washer which is first put on the truck axle. Lastly goes the lock nut. This is what I've done for over 30 years. Never had a wheel come off until last Dec. 19.

 

[WilliamM2]

I've had two wheels come off in less than a year. Still have the painful injuries to remind me!

No spacer, how would that work? The wheels are designed to force in the bearings and you put that over a thin washer which is first put on the truck axle. Lastly goes the lock nut. This is what I've done for over 30 years. Never had a wheel come off until last Dec. 19.

The spacer goes in between the two bearings in the mddle of the wheel.

 

[Muse]

The spacer goes in between the two bearings in the mddle of the wheel.

Thanks, I'll check that out. I spent seems like 1/2 today trying to figure out what if any spacers I could use that might help with this and it was a frustrating experience. It's so unclear what's going on with them, what might fit. I ordered two kinds then tried to cancel one order. Blah.

The thread locking stuff I posted a link to above ... I used it yesterday afternoon and today, the recommended 24 hours later, I tested my test version (I installed for real on my skates and did a test install on a removed truck, which I figured to crank on instead of on the for real ones because I didn't want to disturb them). For comparison, on the other side of the "test" truck axle I did not use the compound. Verdict is that the compound totally worked. I had to crank on that nut about 4x as hard as the one without the compound. I then went out on the street and skated my customary 10 miles with confidence I wouldn't break my arm or whatever. The issue I'm going to face, though, is this: I skate a lot and like to rotate my wheels with some frequency... about every 300 miles or so. That will necessitate removing the nuts and there's going to be hardened residue on the truck axles. I figure I'll try using acetone and probably wire brushes to clean up the threads at least enough where nuts will twist on (with threading compound beneath).

If spacers make all this unnecessary, fine, but I am not yet convinced. The wheels I received this week had bearings and spacers included (assembled already), and tightening the nuts down on them didn't freeze the wheels like my Kryptonics (without spacers) would, but they didn't really spin nice and freely either. They did a weird thing where they kind of spun semi-free, then wiggled back a bit in the opposite direction. Weird!

 

[BoomerD]

Thanks, I'll check that out. I spent seems like 1/2 today trying to figure out what if any spacers I could use that might help with this and it was a frustrating experience. It's so unclear what's going on with them, what might fit. I ordered two kinds then tried to cancel one order. Blah.

The thread locking stuff I posted a link to above ... I used it yesterday afternoon and today, the recommended 24 hours later, I tested my test version (I installed for real on my skates and did a test install on a removed truck, which I figured to crank on instead of on the for real ones because I didn't want to disturb them). For comparison, on the other side of the "test" truck axle I did not use the compound. Verdict is that the compound totally worked. I had to crank on that nut about 4x as hard as the one without the compound. I then went out on the street and skated my customary 10 miles with confidence I wouldn't break my arm or whatever. The issue I'm going to face, though, is this: I skate a lot and like to rotate my wheels with some frequency... about every 300 miles or so. That will necessitate removing the nuts and there's going to be hardened residue on the truck axles. I figure I'll try using acetone and probably wire brushes to clean up the threads at least enough where nuts will twist on (with threading compound beneath).

If spacers make all this unnecessary, fine, but I am not yet convinced. The wheels I received this week had bearings and spacers included (assembled already), and tightening the nuts down on them didn't freeze the wheels like my Kryptonics (without spacers) would, but they didn't really spin nice and freely either. They did a weird thing where they kind of spun semi-free, then wiggled back a bit in the opposite direction. Weird!

You do realize those nylock (nylon lock) nuts are supposed to be replaced at least every 3-4 times you remove them...right?

 

[WilliamM2]

Thanks, I'll check that out. I spent seems like 1/2 today trying to figure out what if any spacers I could use that might help with this and it was a frustrating experience. It's so unclear what's going on with them, what might fit. I ordered two kinds then tried to cancel one order. Blah.

The thread locking stuff I posted a link to above ... I used it yesterday afternoon and today, the recommended 24 hours later, I tested my test version (I installed for real on my skates and did a test install on a removed truck, which I figured to crank on instead of on the for real ones because I didn't want to disturb them). For comparison, on the other side of the "test" truck axle I did not use the compound. Verdict is that the compound totally worked. I had to crank on that nut about 4x as hard as the one without the compound. I then went out on the street and skated my customary 10 miles with confidence I wouldn't break my arm or whatever. The issue I'm going to face, though, is this: I skate a lot and like to rotate my wheels with some frequency... about every 300 miles or so. That will necessitate removing the nuts and there's going to be hardened residue on the truck axles. I figure I'll try using acetone and probably wire brushes to clean up the threads at least enough where nuts will twist on (with threading compound beneath).

If spacers make all this unnecessary, fine, but I am not yet convinced. The wheels I received this week had bearings and spacers included (assembled already), and tightening the nuts down on them didn't freeze the wheels like my Kryptonics (without spacers) would, but they didn't really spin nice and freely either. They did a weird thing where they kind of spun semi-free, then wiggled back a bit in the opposite direction. Weird!

I'm not sure why there is any controversy about spacers these days, back in he 70's and 80's they were standard, 10mm wide, and fit all the dozens of different wheels I used. Everyone used them, I was surprised when I looked it up that there was any debate now. I'm guessing the differences in sizes is more a "chinese" manufacturing issue. Back in the day, ALL descent skateboard/skate equipment was made in the USA, most better bearings were made in Germany or USA.

The wheel not spinning as freely is normal, the bearings should be packed with grease, and the race is no longer spinning freely on the axle with spacers. When you actually use and load them, if anything, they will be faster. They are necessary for best performance.

 

[Muse]

You do realize those nylock (nylon lock) nuts are supposed to be replaced at least every 3-4 times you remove them...right?

Was told that by the shop owner who sold me my plates way back when. I always remembered but was not religious about it. It only bit me last ~Xmas, but now I'm a believer. However, the one that came off ~1 week ago was younger than that so I'm WTF is going on here??? Then I started thinking about the problem seriously (witness the OP) and realized that reverse threading would have prevented this, period. Don't seem to be able to find that, so thread locking compounds would seem to be the answer or maybe, as noted above in this thread, a cotter pin insurance system. I'm even contemplating drilling holes in the left ended axle ends, threading the interiors of the holes with a small-as-possible tap and screwug ub tiny bolts holding washers that would keep the wheels from coming off. Seems far fetched but could work... theoretically. I'd have to drill deep enough to allow proper threading by the tap and it would weaken the axles some. Hopefully not enough for them to break in usage. It's kind of iffy. Right now, I'm feeling OK with the thread locking compound but that has uncertainties and the difficulty of removing and replacing (rotating, esp.) wheels, expiration of effectiveness of the compound...

 

[Muse]

I'm not sure why there is any controversy about spacers these days, back in he 70's and 80's they were standard, 10mm wide, and fit all the dozens of different wheels I used. Everyone used them, I was surprised when I looked it up that there was any debate now. I'm guessing the differences in sizes is more a "chinese" manufacturing issue. Back in the day, ALL descent skateboard/skate equipment was made in the USA, most better bearings were made in Germany or USA.

The wheel not spinning as freely is normal, the bearings should be packed with grease, and the race is no longer spinning freely on the axle with spacers. When you actually use and load them, if anything, they will be faster. They are necessary for best performance.

My best bearings are ceramic and they say not to lubricate ceramic bearings, if you look it up online. I have some pretty good steel bearings too, NMB Japanese or Singapore, double shielded, which I do lubricate.

I don't know how to determine what size spacers to get, did some searching yesterday and couldn't come up with anything. Hopefully, more searching will come up with the answer. Haven't finished watching that video, but I WILL! Maybe he explains how I can find out what spacers I need. I have a few sets of Kryptonics 78A 70mm wheels (the only kind I've ever skated). Also have that cheapo set of 78A 65mm wheels I received last week, which have cheapo bearings and spacers pre-installed, but haven't skated them yet:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09XT9YPFN?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details

 

[BoomerD]

It might just be time to climb into the car and visit one or two of the local skate/skateboard shops...maybe they will have the answers you seek.

Shop Roller Skates & Skate Accessories | Quad Republic Skate Company

Full Service Boutique Roller Skate Shop offering all the best Roller Skates, Wheels, Protective Gear and Apparel brands. Located in El Cerrito California and serving the greater San Francisco Bay Area.

www.quadrepublicskateco.com

https://www.yelp.com/biz/macarthur-skate-shop-oakland

https://www.yelp.com/search?cflt=skateshops&find_loc=Berkeley%2C+CA

 

[Muse]

It might just be time to climb into the car and visit one or two of the local skate/skateboard shops...maybe they will have the answers you seek.

Shop Roller Skates & Skate Accessories | Quad Republic Skate Company

Full Service Boutique Roller Skate Shop offering all the best Roller Skates, Wheels, Protective Gear and Apparel brands. Located in El Cerrito California and serving the greater San Francisco Bay Area.

www.quadrepublicskateco.com

https://www.yelp.com/biz/macarthur-skate-shop-oakland

https://www.yelp.com/search?cflt=skateshops&find_loc=Berkeley%2C+CA

Yup, been thinking the same thing. The car or my bicycle (has basket I can and do put my skates in sometimes).

 

[Muse]

The spacer goes in between the two bearings in the mddle of the wheel.

Yo! That video takes its time (22+ minutes) but does a great job in explaining how skate wheels, bearings and spacers work... I've seen nothing anywhere to compare, including videos and the extensive information written at skate parts specialty sites. It addresses spacers especially, what they do and how to determine what size you need. I'm more than 1/2 way through and he's nailed it, (15.19 into the 22:17)! I subscribed, am trying to figure out his accent, can't find info about what country he lives in but I'm "guessing" Australia!

Now, to measure my wheels and find and order proper spacers. I ordered some but don't know if they will fit. I did cancel one order off ebay successfully, am sure those wouldn't fit.

Edit: It would be better if he were dealing in quad skates and not a skateboard, but I figure the principles are the same. WHAT HE DID NOT ADDRESS, however, is my biggest point: It's goddamn dangerous to not use spacers because the lack of reverse threading when you don't tighten down the truck nuts on left-side wheels (which you can't if you don't use spacers) means the nuts can and will in some cases work off simply due to the friction of the bearing shields against the nuts, the wheel comes off and the skater is flipped off their board or worse, if they are on quads, thrown to the pavement and *SPLAT* !!!

 

[BudAshes]

Didn't roller skates die off when the skateboard was invented?

 

[Muse]

Didn't roller skates die off when the skateboard was invented?

Not exactly. Dogtown and Zboys documentary of middle 1970's Venice, CA kids is around then. Quad skates didn't just disappear or anything.

 

[BoomerD]

Didn't roller skates die off when the skateboard was invented?

Skateboards and roller skates co-existed very well in the early 60's...but, IMO, they have different uses.

 

[WelshBloke]

I haven't skated in over 50 years, but I used to speed skate competitively.

This shocks me more than anything else I've read on the Internet this week!