Damned MSI (rant)

[tcsenter]

A couple months ago I'm looking at motherboards to build a computer for my parents and I find that the MSI MS-6340M has what I'm looking for; Socket A, mATX, ProSavage and AC97 integrated VIA chipset which is based on the KM133A (8365A NB and 686B SB), additional 4x AGP slot for upgrade, etc.

I go to the MSI website and find that MSI has three revisions; MS-6340M, MS-6340M v3.0, MS-6340M v5.0 being the latest. I ASSUME that v5.0 would be the most improved version, which I suppose you can say is true, v5.0 is the only one that supports XP processors (up to 2100+).

I start looking at the BIOS updates for each version, to get an idea whether MSI has offered routine updates for this line of motherboard. I notice that the BIOS update note for the first two versions state "NOT SUPPORT H/W MONITOR" for each of the BIOS updates. However, the BIOS note for v5.0 BIOS updates do not state this. I take this to be one of the differences between v5.0 and previous versions, the 5.0 supports hardware monitor and the other's don't.

I start shopping around and find it for sale at Newegg.com. I click on 'See it' to look that the board, but they just show a pic of the retail box. On the face of the retail box, is a list of 'features', one of which is "Free PC Hardware Health Monitoring Software! (PC Alert)", further reinforcing that this board has on-board hardware monitoring.

So I place my order, get the board, everything is fine, except there is no HW monitoring feature in the BIOS as you would expect of a brand new model Socket A board using a VIA 686B Southbridge (the HW monitoring feature is built in to the 686B). I then begin to think maybe its not accessible through the BIOS, I must have to use this "PC Alert" thingy to access the HW monitor function.

I install PC Alert and it reports "No Hardware Monitor Function Found" or something like that. I also have the VIA HWM, so I install that and it reports something similar. I begin looking at the manual and it mentions nothing about a hardware monitoring feature.

So I email MSI and they respond "MS-6340 has no HW monitoring function". I'm like...WTF??

Why in the hell would I give two hoots about getting "Free PC Hardware Health Monitoring Software! (PC Alert)" when I have no monitoring function on my board? Would that not be a bit like Dell advertising "Free CD Recording Software!" with one of their computers, but not including a CDRW drive? At least I would be able to add a CDRW drive later to make use of my "Free CD Recording Software!", I can't add a hardware monitoring function.

I have a THREE year old Tyan Socket 7 motherboard that has the HW monitor in the VIA 686A for crying out loud.

 

[Kingofcomputer]

This is a phase out model.
The spec doesn't mention hw monitoring.
I'ven't seen any low-cost all-in-one mb with hw monitoring, since this kind of mb is for office/just surfing internet use, hw monitoring is not important.

http://www.msi.com.tw/products/mainboard/mainboard.php?model=MS-6340M+V5.0

Don't buy MSI mb now, they're going downhill, their mb price is very close to/almost same as ECS' mb now, like the SIS745 mb, basic i845 mb, basic KT333 mb. What can you expect from a today MSI mb at ECS mb price level?

 

[TourGuide]

You should also be aware (if I remember this correctly) that MSI is another name for Diamond Multimedia. Anyone who purchased vid cards or the like from them at any time in the past and needed support could tell you a story or two. I don't want to get into that from my end, but I'll never buy another product associated with a company that treats it's clients like they do.

 

[tcsenter]

This is a phase out model.

It is a phase-out model NOW. It was a current model when I purchased it going on...actually, it has been FIVE months, I ordered it on February 6th, 2002. The first release BIOS is dated 10/4/2001, but I know the board was NOT shipping until well after that date. November at the earliest.

I'ven't seen any low-cost all-in-one mb with hw monitoring, since this kind of mb is for office/just surfing internet use, hw monitoring is not important.

The ECS K7MVA is virtually identical except it is ATX. It features HW monitoring, as does every board in the same class; the ECS K7SEM, Epox EP-8KEM2 and KM133+, MSI 815EM Pro (Intel), and many other 'all-in-one' boards. It has long been the standard on virtually all boards.

Regardless of intended use, if a board supports the power-hungry and heat-dissipating Duron and Athlon, especially up to 2100+, it should have hardware monitoring, given that it is built into the VIA chipset and can be offered at virtually no extra cost (a few extra surface mount resistors and you're in business). There's really no excuse for not providing it. They provide the "Free PC Hardware Health Monitoring Software!", and thought it was important enough to put it on the artwork of the retail box.

Edit: That should read "ECS K7VMA" above instead of 'K7MVA'.

 

[Kingofcomputer]

the tw website doesn't put anything under features list, could the us website have a typo?

 

[tcsenter]

the tw website doesn't put anything under features list, could the us website have a typo?

The U.S. website still lists the KM133A Pro5 (MS-6340M v5.0) as a current model, not phase-out. Oh yeah, and the U.S. photo of the board shows a cooling fan on the Northbridge, but my board only has a green heatsink with no cooling fan. I purchased the retail boxed product, which 'should' come with all the bells and whistles.

The U.S. website does not mention HW monitor, either, I don't know if it mentioned HW monitor back in February when I was looking at all the specs/features.

I confess that I somewhat took it for granted that it would have HW monitor since every other competing board in its class (Socket A, integrated video and audio, VIA KM133A) has HW monitor. It never occurred to me that any 'quality' manufacturer such as MSI would NOT offer a HW monitor on any recent Socket A model that supports Duron and Athlon beyond 1GHz, given that heat-dissipation of these processors has been such a problematic issue. When ordering a new car, I wouldn't think to ask whether it came with rear seats, either. There are just some things that are commonly understood to be 'standard'.

But for the reasons I mentioned above, with the lack of BIOS note stating "NOT SUPPORT H/W MONITOR", and the retail box artwork listing hardware monitor software, I think these factors together made it misleading.

I contacted AMD because the KM133A Pro5 is AMD Recommended for AthlonXP. They were a little surprised that it would not have H/W monitor feature. Since AMD is concerned about heat issues, I asked if a H/W monitor was part of AMD's validation criteria and they answered that it was not, "but maybe it should be."

AMD did stress that the KM133A Pro5 supports the thermal protection shut-down feature of the Athlon XP, which is great unless you're using a Duron 900. I guess I'll know its running too hot if I smell smoke and the processor dies.

It isn't like its THAT critical of a feature, but I don't like being mislead. Plus I didn't get my Northbridge fan.

 

[Regalk]

"Don't buy MSI mb now, they're going downhill, their mb price is very close to/almost same as ECS' mb now, like the SIS745 mb, basic i845 mb, basic KT333 mb. What can you expect from a today MSI mb at ECS mb price level? "
Just bought the MSI KT3 Ultra and wow what a board - just slapped my A7S 333 silly (forget ECS K75/6SA - boards were a POS anyway). Bought MSIs GF4 4200 for myself and a GF3 Ti200 for a friend - very good cards with nice overclockability.
BTW I am running the MSI KT3 Ultra at 168FSB with Generic DDR. Sandra memory 2459/2349. Going downhill you say WTF. Now where did that come from - visit www.amdmb.com -->MSI forum

 

[Warin]

Originally posted by: TourGuide
You should also be aware (if I remember this correctly) that MSI is another name for Diamond Multimedia. Anyone who purchased vid cards or the like from them at any time in the past and needed support could tell you a story or two. I don't want to get into that from my end, but I'll never buy another product associated with a company that treats it's clients like they do.

MSI is not and has never been Diamond Multimedia. Diamond was bought out by S3, and now they are called SonicBlue.

I've never had a problem with MSI.

And HW monitoring shouldnt really be needed on an all in one board like this. The only real need for HW monitoring is in furtherance of making sure your overclocked system isnt about to roast itself...and an integrated microatx board like this isnt really the best OCing board to start with.

 

[tcsenter]

And HW monitoring shouldnt really be needed on an all in one board like this. The only real need for HW monitoring is in furtherance of making sure your overclocked system isnt about to roast itself...and an integrated microatx board like this isnt really the best OCing board to start with.

One the contrary, there is every reason to use HW monitoring on 'all-in-one' boards.

First, the processor has the extra burden of video and audio, so the CPU load is significantly higher than when component video and audio are used. Higher CPU loads = more heat.

Second, the smaller footprint of mATX boards used inside smaller cases invariably means closer proximity to heat-producing components and less ventilation.

Third, Athlons and Durons are not VIA C3 processors which require only a heatsink. At equal clock speeds, they consumer more power and dissipate more heat than their counterparts from Intel or VIA. Even at its rated speed, a 900MHz Duron can dissipate enough heat to cause failure in rapid time if an inadequate HSF is used or if the fan stops working. This is why AMD has been such an advocate of proper thermal management, not because of overclockers. I bought a Cooler Master approved up to 1.4GHz, but it would be nice to know how well my selection is working by a more accurate method than 'Windows doesn't crash'.

Fourth, HW monitoring offers more than just thermal monitoring, it also reports abnormal voltage conditions on all major power lines from the PSU, aiding diagnosis of problems.

Fifth, this particular board has BIOS FSB overclocking options, up to FSB+12Mhz, or 112MHz and 145MHz respectively, depending upon whether a 100MHz or 133MHz CPU is used. If I decide to overclock, it would be nice to know whether any instability is caused by heat or inadequate voltage, or both.

Sixth, since the monitoring function is built-into the 686B Southbridge, only a few cheap resistors and a thermistor is required to get it all functioning, and since all competing boards in the same class have HW monitor, some of them costing $20 less, there is really no reason NOT to provide it.

Seventh, if you're going to offer "Free PC Hardware Health Monitoring Software!" as reason to buy your product, going as far as to advertise it on the retail box, it would probably be a good idea to actually offer the hardware function to go with it.

This model doesn't even offer a shut-down feature when there is no voltage sensed on the CPU FAN header. I disconnect the CPU fan power lead and the system keeps running.

 

[Kingofcomputer]

Final answer: MSI sucks - misadvertised/cheating.

Just do a qucik search of "MSI" here, you'll see:
MSI 845G MAX performance issues?
MSI KT3 Ultra no post
CAN"T get into bios on MSI KT3 ultra!!??????
MSI KT3 Ultra video/ram trouble
MSI Kt3 Ultra problems, lots of em.
Prob wiv sound + nForce MSI mobo
Has anyone here been able to get 2 or 3 sticks of 512 DDR to work in an MSI board?
MSI K7T TURBO 2 HELP!! has problems booting
people with the MSI k7t pro2a... PLEASE HELP!
MSI KT3 Ultra auto-shutdown woes
MSI customer support!!
and more.