Damn! I feel like a woman...

Jun 27, 2005
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Linkage...

In New York, despite having a penis, you can change the gender on your birth certificate to say that you're female.

New York Plans to Make Gender Personal Choice
By DAMIEN CAVE
Separating anatomy from what it means to be a man or a woman, New York City is moving forward with a plan to let people alter the sex on their birth certificate even if they have not had sex-change surgery.

Under the rule being considered by the city?s Board of Health, which is likely to be adopted soon, people born in the city would be able to change the documented sex on their birth certificates by providing affidavits from a doctor and a mental health professional laying out why their patients should be considered members of the opposite sex, and asserting that their proposed change would be permanent.

Applicants would have to have changed their name and shown that they had lived in their adopted gender for at least two years, but there would be no explicit medical requirements.

?Surgery versus nonsurgery can be arbitrary,? said Dr. Thomas R. Frieden, the city?s health commissioner. ?Somebody with a beard may have had breast-implant surgery. It?s the permanence of the transition that matters most.?

If approved, the new rule would put New York at the forefront of efforts to redefine gender. A handful of states do not require surgery for such birth certificate changes, but in some of those cases patients are still not allowed to make the change without showing a physiological shift to the opposite gender.

In New York, the proposed change comes after four years of discussion among health officials, an eight-member panel of transgender experts and vital records offices nationwide. It is an outgrowth of the transgender community?s push to recognize that some people may not have money to get a sex-change operation, while others may not feel the need to undergo the procedure and are simply defining themselves as members of the opposite sex. While it may be a radical notion elsewhere, New York City has often tolerated such blurring of the lines of gender identity.

And the proposal reflects how the transgender movement has become politically potent beyond its small numbers, having roots in the muscular politics of the city?s gay rights movement.

Transgender advocates consider the New York proposal an overdue bulwark against discrimination that recognizes an emerging shift away from viewing gender as simply the sum of one?s physical parts. But some psychiatrists and doctors are skeptical of the move, saying sexual self-definition should stop at rewriting medical history.

?They should not change the sex at birth, which is a factual record,? said Dr. Arthur Zitrin, a Midtown psychiatrist who was on the panel of transgender experts convened by the city. ?If they wanted to change the gender for all the compelling reasons that they?ve given, it should be done perhaps with an asterisk.?

The change would lead to many intriguing questions: For example, would a man who becomes a woman be able to marry another man? (Probably.) Would an adoption agency be able to uncover the original sex of a proposed parent? (Not without a court order.) Would a woman who becomes a man be able to fight in combat, or play in the National Football League? (These areas have yet to be explored.)

The Board of Health, which weighs recommendations drafted by the Department of Health and Mental Hygiene, is scheduled to vote on the proposal in December, and officials say they expect it to be adopted.

At the final public hearing for the birth certificate proposal last week, a string of advocates and transsexuals suggested that common definitions of gender, especially its reliance on medical assessments, should be abandoned. They generally praised the city for revisiting its 25-year-old policy that lets people remove the sex designation from their birth certificate if they have had sexual reassignment surgery. Then they demanded more freedom to choose.

Michael Silverman, executive director of the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, said transgender people should not have to rely on affidavits from a health care system that tends to be biased against them. He said that many transgender people cannot afford sex-change surgery or therapy, and often do not consider it necessary.

Another person who testified, Mariah Lopez, 21, said she wanted a new birth certificate to prevent confusion, and to keep teachers, police officers and other authority figures from embarrassing her in public or accusing her of identity theft.

A few weeks ago, at a welfare office in Queens, Ms. Lopez said she included a note with her application for public assistance asking that she be referred to as Ms. when her turn for an interview came up. It did not work. The woman handling her case repeatedly addressed her as Mister.

?The thing is, I don?t even remember what it?s like to be a boy,? Ms. Lopez said, adding that she received a diagnosis of transgender identity disorder at age 6. She asked to be identified as a woman for this article.

The eight experts who addressed the birth certificate issue strongly recommended that the change be made, for the practical reasons Ms. Lopez identified. For public health studies, people who have changed their gender would be counted according to their sex at birth.

But some psychiatrists said that eliminating identification difficulties for some transgender people also opened the door to unwelcome advances from imposters.

?I?ve already heard of a ?transgendered? man who claimed at work to be ?a woman in a man?s body but a lesbian? and who had to be expelled from the ladies? restroom because he was propositioning women there,? Dr. Paul McHugh, a member of the President?s Council of Bioethics and chairman of the psychiatry department at Johns Hopkins University, wrote in an e-mail message on the subject. ?He saw this as a great injustice in that his behavior was justified in his mind by the idea that the categories he claimed for himself were all ?official? and had legal rights attached to them.?

The move to ease the requirements for altering one?s gender identity comes after New York has adopted other measures aimed at blurring the lines of gender identification. For instance, a new shelter policy approved in January now allows beds to be distributed according to appearance, applying equally to postoperative transsexuals, cross-dressers and ?persons perceived to be androgynous.? (Hello, Pat)

The Metropolitan Transportation Authority also agreed last month to let people define their own gender when deciding whether to use the men?s or women?s bathrooms.

Joann Prinzivalli, 52, a lawyer for the New York Transgender Rights Organization, a man who has lived as a woman since 2000, without surgery, said the changes amount to progress, a move away from American culture?s misguided fixation on genitals as the basis for one?s gender identity.

?It?s based on an arbitrary distinction that says there are two and only two sexes,? she said. ?In reality the diversity of nature is such that there are more than just two, and people who seem to belong to one of the designated sexes may really belong to the other.?

Paging Cpl. Klinger... Eeesh...

Call me old fashioned, but if you have a penis you are a man. In this case that is beside the point.

Once you become a legal adult you can do whatever you want with your body. Pierce it. Tattoo it (I have a few). Brand it. Suck the fat out of your ass and stick it in your lips. Remove your penis and add a vagina. Remove your vagina and add a penis. Take hormone therapy to grow breasts (or insert pouches of saline).

I DON'T CARE... You're a grown up, it's your body, do whatever you want.

But changing your birth certificate? Excuse me... With some rare exceptions where a person is born with multiple sets of reproductive organs, your birth gender is fairly straight forward. Why should anyone be allowed to change their birth certificate to indicate something other than what was obvious at birth? And this is in regards to people who actually change their sex.

In NY, all you have to do is prove to a trans-gender psychologist that you're a woman trapped in a man's body and you can change your BC. Whaaaat?

Every time I think the far left has gone totally cuckoo I see something like this. It's one thing to espouse ideas like this. (I'm all for the open exchange of ideas) But now it's policy. Holy crap.

Edit: *Waits for the usual suspect to flame me*
Edit 2: DO NOT cherry pick my words... take them as a whole
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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Nah---this is free love at its finest---my free pass to the women's shower room---just change my sex on my birth certificate from male to female---become a Lesbian---and get all the sex I want. Simply Brillant.

Who says two wrongs don't make a right?

But Doc---I always wanted to be a Lesbian!
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
my free pass to the women's shower room---just change my sex on my birth certificate from male to female

how are you "just" going to do that - since changing your gender on official documents will be dependent on you living as a woman for at least 2 years..? Seems like a fairly arduous undertaking for someone as conservative and one-dimensional as yourself.

Originally posted by: Lemon law
---become a Lesbian---and get all the sex I want. Simply Brillant.

How are you going to get all the sex you want, just by gaining entry to the women's shower room? Most women including most lesbians aren't into casual anonymous sex. Maybe you should consider just becoming a gay man. Are you going to take hormones and have surgery and wear makeup to give yourself a more feminine appearance?
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
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And.... just like that, we've reached a new level of stupidity.

The certificate of birth should be a matter of record based on physical attributes. What someone does after that is their business, but the certificate should be based on what you were when born.
 

aidanjm

Lifer
Aug 9, 2004
12,411
2
0
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
And.... just like that, we've reached a new level of stupidity.

The certificate of birth should be a matter of record based on physical attributes. What someone does after that is their business, but the certificate should be based on what you were when born.

no doubt you would have a different opinion if you were transgendered.
 

judasmachine

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2002
8,515
3
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identity is more than just a fluke at conception, and the chance of getting an X or a Y. it's who you feel you are, and to some that an incredible source of confusion. there are XX males, and YY females and that ignores hermaphrodites. chemistry, experience, and community all have a factor in who we are and who we feel we should be. cut these guys a break, what if you woke up one day and just felt something wasn't right, and that you've been living in denial your whole life. besides this shouldn't be anyone's business but the doctor and the patient.

the only argument i can think of to leave the birth certificate intact would be for criminal investigation type reasons. if you committed some heinous crime as a male years ago, and are now a living as a woman, we'd have that certificate to show that they were once male. the rest is simply nobody's business.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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HOLY GRAB-HER-CROTCH-TO-CHECK-FOR-JUNK BATMAN!

this is just too much... it's going too far... and it's a dangerous precedent. what's next? people changing their species?

"I just felt like a pig my whole life, and all the women called me one anyways... so I decided to make it official! I am now a pig...OINK."

what crap. life is not an MMORPG people.. you don't get to choose the gender you are born with... that, if nothing else, is out of your frickin hands.
 

aka1nas

Diamond Member
Aug 30, 2001
4,335
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Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
And.... just like that, we've reached a new level of stupidity.

The certificate of birth should be a matter of record based on physical attributes. What someone does after that is their business, but the certificate should be based on what you were when born.

no doubt you would have a different opinion if you were transgendered.

Why? It doesn't make sense to retroactively change the birth certificate. It makes even less sense to change the gender on the birth certificate if you haven't had any type of operation to change your gender. Regardless of whether or not the person involved feels that they should be considered among the other gender, physically (and medically) they are still their original gender.

I don't really care if people wish to live that lifestyle or elect to have their gender reassigned. That is their own business. I don't think public records should be falsified so someone's feelings won't be hurt either, though.
 

Lurknomore

Golden Member
Jul 3, 2005
1,308
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Hmm, I'm Asian.
If I elect to live 2 yrs. as a white man, with the proof of birth certificate change, this should increase my chances of getting an asian woman.:D

But back to the topic this is ripe for abuse or benefit, depending on you pov.
You do get lower insurance rates if you're a woman...hmm, gotta get some estrogen, a wig, size A cups bras...
 

GoPackGo

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 2003
6,521
599
126
Originally posted by: aka1nas
Originally posted by: aidanjm
Originally posted by: PokerGuy
And.... just like that, we've reached a new level of stupidity.

The certificate of birth should be a matter of record based on physical attributes. What someone does after that is their business, but the certificate should be based on what you were when born.

no doubt you would have a different opinion if you were transgendered.

Why? It doesn't make sense to retroactively change the birth certificate. It makes even less sense to change the gender on the birth certificate if you haven't had any type of operation to change your gender. Regardless of whether or not the person involved feels that they should be considered among the other gender, physically (and medically) they are still their original gender.

I don't really care if people wish to live that lifestyle or elect to have their gender reassigned. That is their own business. I don't think public records should be falsified so someone's feelings won't be hurt either, though.

Until they can change the X's to Y's and the Y's to X's if you are born a male you will always be a male regardless of the snips they make and the drugs you take.
 

Termagant

Senior member
Mar 10, 2006
765
0
0
I have to say.... this is absolutely stupid. Retroactively changing the gender status you had at birth???? If you were born a certain gender, there is no changing the past, despite what appearance you have in the present.

A panel of transgender specialists..... aka transgender advocates.

How about a panel of rational people?