It was not...
"Kunkle said the internal investigation against Powell will focus on conduct reflecting poorly on the department, as well as making unwarranted threats of arrest.
Powell also faces investigation for comments he made to another officer after the incident ended ? while the video camera was still rolling. He said he "worded" a report in such a way as to justify a January police chase.
"It appears, what he said, to have been contrary to our pursuit policy," Kunkle said, "to where he may have lied about the circumstances under which the pursuit began."
The chief said any one of the charges could lead to dismissal."
So not only can he be he be fired for this he can also be fired for stuff he admitted he did before this. No telling what else he has done.
- Jul 13, 2005
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Your fishing and trying to justify your idiotic stance on this whole deal.
You can bet if it was one of us..provided we were old enough to drive that this still would have made the news!!
The cop was sleazy and hidden from sight. A loved one was dying.....the cop was told that by hospital staff. Cop screwed up end of story!
STFU already and get off your damn high horse. I acknowledged that the cop's ego got in the way (I said it in my first post in this thread) but the ticket was still justified. Everyone fucked up in this sad story.
Dari ;"Serve and Protect"is the motto. Not your "Brown Shirt in Blue." In the real world (or at least in my rational one)a car speeding to the hospital with flashers on gets a police escort.
I have personally been in this situation, the cop followed me to the hospital where my grandmother that raised me was dying... I frantically explained the situation when i got out of the car and the cop went with me inside while i hurried to her inside. He verified i was telling the truth and told me to be more careful even when the situation is dire like this, and gave me a warning.
That would have been perfectly appropriate here as well. I would take action against the city if that cop wasnt fired had my grandmother died while i was getting traffic ticket from a power-tripping traffic cop.
That would have been perfectly appropriate here as well. I would take action against the city if that cop wasnt fired had my grandmother died while i was getting traffic ticket from a power-tripping traffic cop.
It might have been appropriate(although, most cops would have let the people off because of the situation). But once the dumbass pulled his gun for no reason, and then acts the way he did, the only thing that should happen is a settlement from the DPD to the Moat's and the officer is put on the desk for the rest of his career.
mugs
Lifer
- Apr 29, 2003
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He didn't pull his gun for no reason! It appears that he pulled his gun (and pointed it at the ground) because as soon as the SUV was parked the occupants all got out and started walking away, which caused them to walk toward the police car. You're not supposed to do that when you get pulled over; the cop was just being cautious. He didn't threaten them with his gun, he just had it ready. I don't think I need to remind you of the recent incident that started with a guy exiting his car and walking toward the officers who pulled him over.
I think this would be an appropriate resolution -
- The officer is suspended for a month without pay; his pay for that month is donated to a cancer research or awareness non-profit.
- The officer receives corrective training
- The officer publicly apologizes
- Ryan Moats accepts a ticket for running the red light and publicly acknowledges that he was wrong to run a red light and wrong to ignore the cop who was trying to pull him over. I don't think he endangered anyone, but the police can't condone what he did, even if the officer was also wrong. Right now the police are apologizing for the incident, and that makes it seem like running red lights is ok if you're on your way to the hospital.
A financial restitution is just silly. The officer was insensitive, that doesn't warrant compensation.
Personally, I'd have pulled over to the curb as soon as I saw the flashing lights behind me. Then the officer wouldn't have been pissed off at me for refusing to pull over, which is what I think happened in this situation. Then the officer would have been in a more reasonable state of mind for me to explain the situation and then for him to do the right thing.
I'm not defending the officer for what happened after they all arrived at the hospital, as the officer was already aggitated that he was not getting the cooperation he expected in a normal pull-over, whcih up to the point of arriving at the hospital, that's all it was to him.
So the officer's pissed upon arrival at the hospital, and from his point of view, I think he had some cause, because a chase is a chase, with all the potential for danger to the officer, the perps and the public in general.
The officer had no idea what Moat's intentions were other than to logically assume that Moats was attempting to flee, and that's when the officer's "hard mode" and adrenaline rush kicked in. The old "oh here we go again, we got another hard ass" must have come to mind.
The officer was still in that mode upon arrival at the hospital, pumped full of adrenaline and ready for anything that could come his way including facing death square in the face. How anyone can do that calmly is impossible for me to fathom.
How do you come off of a rush like that in an instant, on your own, I have no idea.
A hard lesson learned for the officer, and very very sad for Moat's family, but refusing to pull over when flashed is fleeing, especially when the officer had no idea what Moat's intentions were until after the officer flushed his rush, calmed down and got back his normal situational awareness. I could see where the moment of transition from full battle mode to a state of normal suspicious caution occurred for the officer when he stated "all you had to do was stop, tell me what was going on. More than likely I would have let you go." Which, to me, is reasonable.
I'm not defending the officer for what happened after they all arrived at the hospital, as the officer was already aggitated that he was not getting the cooperation he expected in a normal pull-over, whcih up to the point of arriving at the hospital, that's all it was to him.
So the officer's pissed upon arrival at the hospital, and from his point of view, I think he had some cause, because a chase is a chase, with all the potential for danger to the officer, the perps and the public in general.
The officer had no idea what Moat's intentions were other than to logically assume that Moats was attempting to flee, and that's when the officer's "hard mode" and adrenaline rush kicked in. The old "oh here we go again, we got another hard ass" must have come to mind.
The officer was still in that mode upon arrival at the hospital, pumped full of adrenaline and ready for anything that could come his way including facing death square in the face. How anyone can do that calmly is impossible for me to fathom.
How do you come off of a rush like that in an instant, on your own, I have no idea.
A hard lesson learned for the officer, and very very sad for Moat's family, but refusing to pull over when flashed is fleeing, especially when the officer had no idea what Moat's intentions were until after the officer flushed his rush, calmed down and got back his normal situational awareness. I could see where the moment of transition from full battle mode to a state of normal suspicious caution occurred for the officer when he stated "all you had to do was stop, tell me what was going on. More than likely I would have let you go." Which, to me, is reasonable.
So you don't expect the officer to behave rationally under stress but you expect the civilian to act rationally under greater stress? The officer could easily tell if he was trying to escape. Hazard lights flashing, initially stopping at the red before proceeding, pulling into a hospital all should have triggered that these people simply needed to get to the hospital quickly, not that they are trying to ditch the officer.
Why don't you STFU. Moat acted in a totally reasonable way. It is easy to judge if it is safe to go on a red light. Running a red light after coming to a stop to ensure it is safe is a perfectly reasonable traffic violation under the circumstances. Guess what, I've run a red light before. It was after midnight and my motorcycle wouldn't trigger the light to change for me. So after sitting at the red light for several minutes waiting for a car to come that would trigger the light for me, I just went. Nobody was put in danger. If I was given a ticket for it, I certainly would have contested it. And I'm pretty sure I would have won. The purpose of traffic laws is safety, not for people to obey the law. I don't see an impact on the number of traffic accidents if cops don't write tickets out to people who safely run a red light under extenuating circumstances. There was nothing morally wrong with what these people did. What they did put no one in danger. This clearly wasn't a major intersection, seeing as there was only one car there. People are capable of using judgment.
Edited for spelling and clarity
- Jul 13, 2005
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No where does it say Moat`s refused to stop ot that he was feeing.
Powell, watching traffic from a hidden spot, flipped on his lights and sirens. In less than a minute, he caught up to the SUV and followed for about 20 more seconds as Moats found a parking spot outside the emergency room.
You made a very good point. You have brought the emotions of the agrieved into the discussion. Of which I surmize that their actions rightly or wrongly contributed to how the events of that incident unfolded. I ask this again: how is it that the officer knew what was going on other than Moat was refusing to stop when he was supposed to, up until Moat pulled into the hospital parking lot and started an attempt to explain to the officer why he refused to immediately pull over as he was supposed to? We can create all kinds of scenarios out of that video based on our past experiences and whatever agenda each of us are promoting, but hindsight has already taken over portions of this discussion, which taints and disqaulifies some people's opinions on the matter and renders other's opinions moot because objectivity has given way to raw emotions and prejudices.
Please realize here that I'm not trying to say that the police officer was right and the Moat's were wrong. What I'm presenting here is that there were possible circumstances that did not get mentioned before my post, especially those circumstances that when viewed from the officer's point of view might bring about a better understanding of why things happened the way they did.
In my view, what caused this situation is the inability of the officer and the Moat's to communicate with each other their desires and their intentions at a very critical moment in time that for you and I may seem so short when viewing the vid, but to the officer and the Moat's an hellish eternity that not any of them wanted to experience.
I stand by what I said earlier about pulling over immediately to let the officer know what was going on so he could render assistance in getting the Moat's to the hospital as quickly and as SAFELY as possible, which seems a reasonable thing to do, and would have mitigated what turned out to be a tragedy for all involved. That was a decison that Moat made. He decided that it was better to refuse to stop and from the officer's point of view at that moment, Moat broke the law.
We can even blame the Police Dept. that the officer belonged to for not properly training him for a situation similar to what he went through and not the officer himself if we're going to play the blame game the way his superiors did.
As far as expecting the officer to remain calm under stress, well I'm not going to make excuses for him, nor am I attempting to justify the behavior he displayed after they all arrived at the hospital. As I stated earlier, that was not my intention for posting. In my opinion, I don't expect anyone to remain calm under the exceptionally stressful conditions I viewed in that video. We're all human with the same emotions, and we'll never know how we're going to react to a highly stressful and time compressed unfolding situation until it's already a done deal. That's just me being as realistic and as objective as I can be.
To address the issue of the officer recognizing what Moat's motives were before he pulled into the hospital, well again I have to metnion that we have hindsight to make a judgement that the officer didn't have the luxury of. To say that the officer could "easily" detect if Moat was trying to escape and that pulling into a hospital parking lot was obviously telling is subjective and a supposition made with the intent of supporting an opinion and not one of proving or supporting a fact. For all I know the officer's intention and expectation of Moat was for him to immediately stop and pull over and is a reasonable expectation based on the fact that the officer didn't have a clue as to what Moat's intentions or motives were until after they arrived at the hospital.
edit - grammar
- Jul 13, 2005
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according to the article by the time the officer caught up to moat`s he followed Moat`s for another 20 seconds in the hopital parking lot.....
It makes NO difference that Moat`s didn`t stop sooner.
As soon as the officer saw that Moat`s was pulling into the hospital parking lot the officer should have asked Moat`s if there was an emergency......
I dare say not one person who posted in this thread given the same exact circumstances would have stopped before arriving at the hospital...you would have continued the short distance to the Hospital and then stopped.
It makes NO difference that Moat`s didn`t stop sooner.
As soon as the officer saw that Moat`s was pulling into the hospital parking lot the officer should have asked Moat`s if there was an emergency......
I dare say not one person who posted in this thread given the same exact circumstances would have stopped before arriving at the hospital...you would have continued the short distance to the Hospital and then stopped.
What can I say? as I viewed the video, Moat didn't stop even after the officer turned on his flashers. Like I mentioned in the post I just completed, 20 seconds may seem a very short time to you and I as we're viewing the video, but to the officer and the Moat's a moment in time like that can seem an eternity. Maybe I missed something there, so tell me if and where I did so I can stand corrected on that point.
Ok, that seems plausible, but you're making a subjective opinion for what i assume is to prove that it was all the officer's fault that this regretable incident occurred.
As stated earlier, my focus was on what happened BEFORE Moat pulled into the hospital parking lot. Your focus is apparently on what happened AFTER Moat pulled into the parking lot.
And to be so bold as to speak for everyone that posted here to make your argument more convincing is.....well, not convincing. sorry.
edit - spl
I guess I get what you're saying, but again, hind sight is 20/20. For both parties though. You are likely right that he would have been better off just stopping immediately. Then again, maybe not. It would be hard to be respectful when you're panicked as he was, and his wife might have ended up being stuck there with him. Regardless, however, its not like these people have received training on how to most quickly make it to the hospital when someone is dying. The officer should have received training on how to deescalate a situation, and he did exactly the opposite. You are probably right that it would have been difficult for the officer to know his motive, and I didn't have too much trouble with his immediate response. It was his later response that was way out of line.
- Jul 13, 2005
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Originally posted by: mugs
Did you even watch the video? When you have an emergency vehicle behind you, you're supposed to pull off the road and stop as soon as possible, not when you feel like it. He didn't flee, but he did fail to stop when he was required to.
I am sorry but you mean to tell me that in Moat`s situation you would have pulled over immediately....hmmmm......ok!!
Agreed.
I also agree with some of the comments JEDIYoda made in his first post, as they were logical and pragmatic.
mugs
Lifer
- Apr 29, 2003
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Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: mugs
I am sorry but you mean to tell me that in Moat`s situation you would have pulled over immediately....hmmmm......ok!!
I mean to tell you that Moats refused to stop when he was required to do so. I'm telling you that Moats would have been more likely to be with his mother-in-law when she died if he had stopped when he was required to stop.
Siddhartha
Lifer
- Oct 17, 1999
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nobodyknows
Diamond Member
- Sep 28, 2008
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Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: mugs
I am sorry but you mean to tell me that in Moat`s situation you would have pulled over immediately....hmmmm......ok!!
I mean to tell you that Moats refused to stop when he was required to do so. I'm telling you that Moats would have been more likely to be with his mother-in-law when she died if he had stopped when he was required to stop.
Would it have been too much trouble for this officer to have went into the hospital and verified that the story was true?
It's not like he couldn't get the guy's license plate number and they could mail him the ticket.
If i was the Chief of Police there, that officer would be doing meter maid duty for a long, LONG time.
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: JEDIYoda
Originally posted by: mugs
I am sorry but you mean to tell me that in Moat`s situation you would have pulled over immediately....hmmmm......ok!!
I mean to tell you that Moats refused to stop when he was required to do so. I'm telling you that Moats would have been more likely to be with his mother-in-law when she died if he had stopped when he was required to stop.
Come on now Mugs, stop it. Anyone looking at that video can see clearly that cop was not going to any way help Moats and his family out. As a matter of fact if he had stopped, not even his wife would have been able to say goodbye. Its hard to say if the cop should lose his job, but he went to far, even after having all the facts. He should have given the guy a warning and talking too. Because what Moats did was understandable, but dangerous. I think a good suspension without pay is in order. A solid 30 day suspension. As a police officer you just can't do stuff like that just because, as the way the cop said it, you can "screw someone over".
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